Maokai’s q buff is a perfect example of Riot’s horrible approach to balancing tanks

HateDaddy··174 votes·25,304 views

Rather than give him the ability to perform better in lane through defense and sustain, you’re just giving him more damage. And this is what you guys do all the time - buff damage slowly and eventually one day someone realizes that tank hits like a truck and can only lose lane if they make mistakes or get camped. And then you just have an entire class of champions never meant to be major damage threats that are rushing tank items (as expected) but having the capacity to outduel bruisers and assassins.

There are several ways you could’ve buffed maokai without focusing on his damage, something that has absolutely been a problem in the past. You could’ve buffed his sustain. You could’ve reduced some of his steep mana costs. You could’ve increased the slow on his Q. You could’ve given his W longer root duration. Any of these changes make him better at different stages of the game.

If you go with late game buffs (root duration increase on w, Q slow increased) then that makes picking him and struggling through lane more worthwhile. This, you’ve increased his viability.

If you go with early game buffs, you could increase healing on his passive, reduce the static cooldown on his passive, increase base defensive stats, reduced mana costs. Any of these changes makes him perform more consistently in lane without giving him the ability to do more upfront damage. You haven’t made him overbearing, even if he can spam spells more because the upfront damage isn’t as high, so he doesn’t have the capacity to just all-in - which is a problem we always end up having in tank metas: their damage is buffed so much that instead of winning lane through attrition, they just CC you and never let you go while melting you down with upfront damage that you can’t respond to.

Stop obsessing over damage. It’s so dissatisfying to see changes like that. There are other ways to make champions useful. And even if your argument would be to make his jungle capacity more attractive, then just buff the damage on his Q against creeps. And any of the buffs I suggested still help him in the jungle, especially sustain and mana cost buffs. You guys are so narrow minded on damage that it just makes me not want to play, especially when you’re focusing damage buffs on the champions who need it the least - tanks.

184 Comments

HateDaddy57 votes

Additionally I want to point out that simply buffing damage is lazy thinking. It’s just fishing for desirable outcomes without much thought into how the achieved outcome of stronger performance is acquired.

DeathBurst3 votes

As much as I agree with your OP, I disagree with this comment.

The analysis is in the OP is valid and convincing. The attack in this comment is useless and hurtful.

Averia4 votes

How so? He's right that damage buffing is a lazy balance strategy. Sometimes all a champion needs is numbers and that's fair, those are considered "easy to balance champions".

More often than not however, damage balancing has lead to issues in the past specifically with the tank class, but also with other classes as well.

I'm genuinely curious how this comment is somehow hurtful compared to the rest of his argument when it's the same argument he lead with.

DeathBurst4 votes

I'm genuinely curious how this comment is somehow hurtful compared to the rest of his argument when it's the same argument he lead with.

One is attacking the people that did the work, the other the results of that work. The OP is actually an argument, based on facts and reasoning. The comment is just trying to guess the intentions that led to this result, and it's only wild speculation.

Averia2 votes

I disagree here as well, although I do understand more of where you are coming from now. They're saying buffing numbers repeatedly to get "desired results" is a lazy balance strategy and that's just without argument or opinion true.

They are not saying "X person is a bad designer because they only buff numbers". There is no argument attacking a person here, any more than there was in the OP. The claim is that in general, buffing/nerfing numbers are lazy balance choices, especially considering that there is historic proof that damage number changes generally only exacerbate problems rather than fix them.

MrFawknSunshine31 votes

as a maokia otp i agree 100% with HateDaddy. giving him 10 damage on his Q at all ranks dont do anything to make him a better tank and sustain and be viable during laning phase.

Kazekiba5 votes

It's fine because hes slightly stronger in Trades but not by noticable amounts.

Buffing his R/E root durations would make him overpowered fast, buffing his passive base/ratios would make him frustrating to deal with in soloQ especially when ahead already, etc.

10 more base damage is hardly felt but players who trade properly can win fights or break even in a lose-lose situation. At least he didnt suddenly go from 10/25/40/65/80 to 10/55/100/140/180

MrFawknSunshine7 votes

{quoted}

It's fine because hes slightly stronger in Trades but not by noticable amounts.

Buffing his R/E root durations would make him overpowered fast, buffing his passive base/ratios would make him frustrating to deal with in soloQ especially when ahead already, etc.

10 more base damage is hardly felt but players who trade properly can win fights or break even in a lose-lose situation. At least he didnt suddenly go from 10/25/40/65/80 to 10/55/100/140/180

but he dont lose lane cuz of lack of damage on Q . he loses lane for #s of reasons. if he is meant to be a tank then reward him for being so. if they want him to be a juggernaut/bruiser ( like i use to play him prior to rework) then give him his old ult back and buff his damages

tanks are so over ran in lane due to fighters/juggernauts having more damage and having sustain while most of them having the same base HP that the tank does. so you as a tank arent tankier, dont have damage to trade and get outsustain due to every champ in lane having healing in their kits and runes giving them more healing such has conqueror healing, triumph healing on kills/asst making it rewarding to be aggressive and going for trades/damage

Warpes24 votes

As someone who mained (OTP'd) Maokai for legitimately 3 years, and is currently working his way back to plat. I 100% completely agree with this post.

Salron17 votes

I just wish they'd give Maokai some jungle specific buffs like increased sapling damage on monsters or something so he can return to his natural habitat But this change isn't bad, it's literally just a revert of a past nerf

Ragnaveil1 votes

Eh, issue is you dont want to make that too strong or he'll clear with no health lost. Not to mention Cinderhulk got buffed not too long ago to do triple damage to monsters.

Warpes4 votes

they could very easily tune it to make it not too strong.. right now his clear is relatively weak, even with cinderhulk buffs. and sappling power increase would help his laning just a (slighty) tad too.. no reason why riot can't consider something like this, when theyre already considering increasing his dmg.

imo shift the power to his sappling (a small amount) and give him some some laning power via early defenses/sustain. sappling dmg won't make his laning dmg overbearing anyway (cus u just dont go near the bush..), but the defenses will make him survivable enough to be a reasonable pick again. with an added bonus of actually being viable in the jg...

ModWulf Helhammer14 votes

Because as it's been explained in the past:

Buffing tank damage is the best way to get them to improve for solo queue, as aside from extreme buffs to utility, anything besides damage won't cause them to improve much for lower skill brackets.

It's why Sej's and Ornn's damage was buffed recently when they were struggling, because if you buff their defense, sustain, CC, any actual aspect of a tank, then they will stay the same for lower skill levels (where people can't or don't know how to take advantage of those strengths to their proper capacity) while also making them extremely strong in higher elo and organized play (where people do know how to use those strengths).

HateDaddy44 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-01T17:16:51.526+0000)

Because as it's been explained in the past:

Buffing tank damage is the best way to get them to improve for solo queue, as aside from extreme buffs to utility, anything besides damage won't cause them to improve much for lower skill brackets.

It's why Sej's and Ornn's damage was buffed recently when they were struggling, because if you buff their defense, sustain, CC, any actual aspect of a tank, then they will stay the same for lower skill levels (where people can't or don't know how to take advantage of those strengths to their proper capacity) while also making them extremely strong in higher elo and organized play (where people do know how to use those strengths).

That’s just not true though, and the only thing that style of balancing does is create self-fulfilling prophecies, in addition lead to unhealthy styles of play. If you tell players, and more importantly balance around the idea of doing more damage to carry in solo queue, then of course that’s the only style that can prosper. Season 2, 3, and 4 saw tanks being strong without doing absurd chunks of damage. They were valuable for their CC. They could sustain in lane and they didn’t have to practically one shot you to achieve this.

Again, it’s just lazy thinking and making baseless assumptions about the player base. It’s also catering to a horrible style of play that has been perpetuated across the board: damage for everyone.

Warpes24 votes

I agree with this assessment, it kind of shows that riot really doesn't understand their own game more than anything. they can't make blanket statements like this when in the past it's already been PROVEN to not be true

This is precisely why this game is in the state that it is right now, and why a massive majority of it's playerbase is unhappy with it, including the many pros who have voiced their opinions.

BambooWorld2 votes

Majority my ass.

Warpes1 votes

lolwut

oh i forgot.. you by yourself = majority, while the other millions of players who play this game aren't

thanks for correcting me bud.

Leetri2 votes

The day you can provide a list with 50 million accounts saying they're unhappy with the game, THEN you have a majority. Even if you combine every single online forum that talks about League you get like what, 3 million people at most? The boards and reddit will always be a loud minority by a significant margin, because these kind of places really only attract people who want change.

Pika Fox4 votes

Literally every form and metric says its true. All data says its true.

Random LoL boards player #42069: "ThAtS nOt TrUe ThOuGh"

Ayzev4 votes

What metrics exactly? Mind providing us this data?

Pika Fox2 votes

Riot already stated as such. Guess who has all the metrics and data? Riot.

Ayzev3 votes

So you don't actually know jackshit, you're just kissing their ass.

Pika Fox1 votes

Yes, because the people who designed the game and who have all the internal statistics of how the game works and what changes affect what group of people are clearly wrong and some scrub on the LoL forums who actuay doesnt know "jackshit" that is just saying "nuh uh, youre wrong, fuck data and statistics and science!" is correct.

Warpes3 votes

do you even realize how ridiculous you sound? not to mention dead fucking wrong, that part aside because it isn't even the worst part of your statements

for one tho, where is all this data and "every form and metric"? i'm sure we'd all love to see the graphs and pie charts you've made from every statistic you've collection for riot, bud. cus riot themselves has never shown us anything like it.

and for two, no matter what is theorized or sounds good on paper to riot, as i and others have pointed (for literally 4 fucking years) it's already been proven not to be true. ya know, like, IN the actual game itself, where shit actually fucking matters

the "tank meta" just after sejuani was nerfed and before the juggernaut patch, is widely regarded as the healthiest and best state the game has ever seen. and then with the juggernaut patch, and every subsequent patch since, the game has declined to a state of incessant toxicity. you can't say that "data" disapproves this, or that it's simply wrong, when every player who isnt a raging 8 year old already knows its true and has voiced it repeatedly.

but by all means, continue spewing nothing but nonsense directly out of your asshole and onto all of our monitors, just so you can sound like you know a thing or two.

Ayzev2 votes

Until you show us this data you're talking about, you have no more credibility than any random boards user.

And even when you show us this data, we are still inclined to take it with a grain of salt, because Riot may know better than us, but that doesn't mean they will tell us what they know. Remember the blatant lie they told us about dynamic queue being supposedly well-received?

chipndip18 votes

{quoted}

That’s just not true though

How long did we struggle with Sejuani before she finally became pro play manageable, and how was it resolved?

Somehow, though, what we saw with our own eyes isn't true.

HateDaddy8 votes

{quoted}

How long did we struggle with Sejuani before she finally became pro play manageable, and how was it resolved?

Somehow, though, what we saw with our own eyes isn't true.

Sejuani is not the entire class of tanks. Season 2, 3, and 4 had tanks being strong for their durability and utility without having the capacity to practically murder any squishy in one rotation. Just because sejuanis design has been problematic to balance doesn’t mean that’s true for every tank.

cuddlykitten41 votes

That's not what a self-fulfilling prophecy is. To be a self-fulfilling prophecy it must start from a false claim, or a claim that is not held in a form of truth. For example, saying "today is going to be a bad day", then having a bad day would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is one because you have no reason (even if something bad happens first thing when you wake up) to believe your day will be a bad day. It is a claim based in no realm of truth. If you make a bad day as a result of operating under that assumption, then that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Riot were saying that they increased the dmg, that the result would be better results on ppl playing Maokai, then never made the dmg change while still obtaining the claimed results, then yes, that would be a self-fulfilling prophesy. However, since Riot really is making the change they claim, therefore basing all future actions on a true statement and not a false one, what they are really doing when they claim it will improve Maokai's playing is forming a hypothesis. If his win rate does go up as a result, they will then have a theory.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

That's not what a self-fulfilling prophecy is. To be a self-fulfilling prophecy it must start from a false claim, or a claim that is not held in a form of truth. For example, saying "today is going to be a bad day", then having a bad day would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is one because you have no reason (even if something bad happens first thing when you wake up) to believe your day will be a bad day. It is a claim based in no realm of truth. If you make a bad day as a result of operating under that assumption, then that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Riot were saying that they increased the dmg, that the result would be better results on ppl playing Maokai, then never made the dmg change while still obtaining the claimed results, then yes, that would be a self-fulfilling prophesy. However, since Riot really is making the change they claim, therefore basing all future actions on a true statement and not a false one, what they are really doing when they claim it will improve Maokai's playing is forming a hypothesis. If his win rate does go up as a result, they will then have a theory.

I wasn’t talking about maokai, I was talking about riot thinking damage is the only way to carry in solo queue and both balancing and enforcing this mentality creates that reality, and we know this hasn’t always been true because past seasons have had tanks be successful as damage soakers and disrupters with low damage output.

False perception: damage is the only way to be good in solo queue

Prophecy resulting: balances around this idea and suggests it in informal and formal situations.

Result: damage is the only way to be good in solo queue

2Charmnot2Charm24 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-01T17:16:51.526+0000)

Because as it's been explained in the past:

Buffing tank damage is the best way to get them to improve for solo queue, as aside from extreme buffs to utility, anything besides damage won't cause them to improve much for lower skill brackets.

Those kind of players are in low elo for a reason, if they don't like it they can always get better at the game.

Iota Theta18 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-01T17:16:51.526+0000)

Because as it's been explained in the past:

Buffing tank damage is the best way to get them to improve for solo queue, as aside from extreme buffs to utility, anything besides damage won't cause them to improve much for lower skill brackets.

It's why Sej's and Ornn's damage was buffed recently when they were struggling, because if you buff their defense, sustain, CC, any actual aspect of a tank, then they will stay the same for lower skill levels (where people can't or don't know how to take advantage of those strengths to their proper capacity) while also making them extremely strong in higher elo and organized play (where people do know how to use those strengths).

But why is this an issue? If you’re choosing to play a tank, you should be aware you aren’t choosing to deal damage or carry. Why is it bad that there’s a class of champs that are better in more coordinated arenas than lower elo solo queue?

Also, Just because that’s the reason doesn’t mean we have to like it. It’s an annoying shift in champ kits. Tanks are picked for survival and team power, not damage.

I for one, and possible other out there, would rather take a lower overall tank winrate and playrate if they actually felt like the class they should be and not knock-off fighters.

Abibyama II1 votes

No you're choosing a tank to not die and do damage in solo q because everyone is not trustworthy and rather do their own thing

Iota Theta13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2019-05-01T19:40:59.762+0000)

No you're choosing a tank to not die and do damage in solo q because everyone is not trustworthy and rather do their own thing

So..really should be picking a juggernaut then, and not a tank.

WAZZZUP50015 votes

Tanks are team-oriented picks. If you're picking tanks to go lone-wolf, you're confused.

Moody P6 votes

then don't complain about them being bad in uncoordinated dog elos lol

Warpes9 votes

You realize you're literally saying we should move this team based game more in the direction of individual and selfish playstyles rather than into healthy team play, right?

Hayaishi213 votes

The balance team is beyond redemption.

Toxic Teeto12 votes

"We know damage is too high right now...

SO WE GIVE YOU MORE DAMAGE MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA!"

  • Rito Gems
astralwit9 votes

A tanky champion just being tanky is still useless and ignorable. Tanks need decent base damages to be relevant. Both ways have been tested and it's generally more satisfying and healthy for them to have some ability to lane rather than just being nearly unkillable (low agency on worse teams and the other player smashing their head against a wall attempting to do anything). Maokai's Q buff was aimed at jungling too not just laning.

Raiyza5 votes

Tanks have good base damage. They don't have bursty damage without items, but they don't need to either. This buff to maokai was pointless and doesn't help his viability because Maokai jungle is fine. it's his job as a tank/initiator that's lacking. They should have buffed his armor per level or something.

Pika Fox6 votes

Because damage is better in soloq, where as defensive stats are better in comp.

Iota Theta1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-05-01T18:57:21.405+0000)

Because damage is better in soloq, where as defensive stats are better in comp.

Maybe true, but if that’s their perspective, why not let fighters be the more solo choice and tanks keep their more coordinated spot? Tanks don’t need damage, and it’s just increasing the whole “everyone deals too much damage” and “tanks aren’t good” perspective, cause the tanks will just dish out the damage on top of CCing, but their defensive skills will suck.

If a player wants to play a tank, they should be doing so aware that they’re sacrificing damage and carry power for the survival and team focus.

Skullthorn6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-05-01T18:57:21.405+0000)

Because damage is better in soloq, where as defensive stats are better in comp.

Carries are very much dominating the top lane in professional play. The only tanky champions that have seen any play are Sion, Urgot, and sometime Poppy. Even then, Urgot's more of a ranged bruiser since he has very little CC.

Pika Fox3 votes

Which proves my point, given all of them are low utility high damage. (Although im pretty sure urg is a jugg and not a tank iirc)

Skullthorn6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=000b00010000,timestamp=2019-05-01T19:08:07.910+0000)

Which proves my point, given all of them are low utility high damage. (Although im pretty sure urg is a jugg and not a tank iirc)

It literally doesn't. In the highest levels of competitive play, no one's touching Mao'kai, Shen, or even Ornn with a fifty foot barge pole despite the utility available to them . The only one who might see play soon is Nautilus, and that's as an AP midlaner after a year and a half of continuous buffs.

Pika Fox2 votes

Given theyre buffing damage, they arent adjusting for the highest levels of play. Mao already is strong when he is used in comp.

Skullthorn7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=000b0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-01T20:27:26.464+0000)

Given theyre buffing damage, they arent adjusting for the highest levels of play. Mao already is strong when he is used in comp.

Across the 5 major regions, he has been played twice, and lost both games with an average of 0.5 KDA. He's weak as piss in and out of competitive play.

Pika Fox2 votes

Tanks usually arent the ones getting kills in comp.

Iota Theta2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=000b000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-01T23:51:39.853+0000)

Tanks usually arent the ones getting kills in comp.

KDA. That includes his assists, which means he’s dying almost just as much as having any impact in a fight.

Pandemic Punch6 votes

I 100% agree with your sentiment. I will say though that the small buff on his Q is only half of a revert to where his Q used to be. And his damage wasnt even strong at the time of that nerf. People over play his ability to jump on a carry and 100-0 them. Once his abilities are exhausted, he just stands there while the adc still has more than half of their health....

Now back to your ACTUAL point.... I 100% agree. Tanks dont need more damage. Tanks need more survivability.

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