Another worlds goes by where Gnar is picked/banned constantly
Why is this champion immune to the Kalista/Azir treatment
He does too much when good
91 Comments
AirKingNeo34 votesI have no clue why there's a ranged kite tank who's hit box is small, has a dash, a speed boost every 3rd hit, a massive slow, and every 3rd hit deals so much damage he out trades most melees while in melee range of them (despite supposedly needing to kite).
His Q needs to lose 0/5/10/15/20 damage, his % HP damage needs to go down to 10% maximum, and his speed boost needs to be reduced by half; Mallet should be melee only.
notice me Sin pi3 votesmallet becoming melee only could be problematic for 
tho.
abca986 votesI honestly think it's not impossible for Riot to write exceptions in the code. And even if they couldn't, they could change Urgot to something non 
reliant.
Arakadia1 votesOr count Urgot as melee considering he doesn't use any "ranged only" tools.
AirKingNeo2 votesUrgot is kinda broken right now so consider it a fair nerf?
notice me Sin pi1 votesi think u r right... mallet nerf actually seems more reasonable than the Q nerf now that i think about it
General Esdeath 1 votesEven if the slow was removed from Urgot it would be a decent item. HP for shield, AD for damage.
inb4 make his W apply melee on hit effects.
Urgot Tiamat boy
kile1472 votesHis primary job is to counter juggernauts. His role is essentially a tank who loses to matchups that are good for most tanks, and wins matchups that are bad for them.
AirKingNeo13 votesExcept Gnar doesn't lose to any matchup except for champions more broken than him.
Seriously, think about it. If Gnar counters melees, who beats Gnar? You could say Jayce and Pantheon, but then I'll repeat the question for them, with the answer being they're just broknen. Same applies to Gnar, just not as broken.
kile1473 votesGnar doesn't counter melees, he counters immobile melee champions, most of which are juggernauts whom he is supposed to counter.
If you want a pick against Gnar, he loses to many Divers (
), Assassins (
), and Skirmishers (
). Top lane mages tend to go even with him, and tanks like Sion and Nautilus can both be picked into him fairly safely because their shields and engage make them difficult to fight.
The only matchups he has advantage in are against juggernauts (
) and tanks with poor engage (
).
He is definitely a good pick in Pro Play because he scales very well with team coordination and can avoid being absolutely dumpstered even in bad matchups, but for the rest of us he consistently loses more games than he wins in every elo according to OP.gg, Champion.gg, and LoLking.net.
AirKingNeo6 votesExcept Gnar beats Wukong and J4. Irelia used to beat Gnar, but they nerfed the fuck out of her. Talon nor Ekko beats Gnar. As I stated, Akali is just too broken and has no counters. Gnar beats Fiora, Yasuo is just a bad pick who only counters him and can't do much else.
kile1474 votesIf I may ask, where are you getting this information from? As I said I am referencing 3 different sites which compile data based on a large number of games to determine win rates. If you have a source that disagrees with them I'm curious to see it as I don't particularly like the interface for LoLking or OP.gg, and I haven't trusted Champion.gg since the API changes awhile back messed with their data gathering.
Hella Kaiser1 votesand tanks like Sion and Nautilus can both be picked into him fairly safely because their shields and engage make them difficult to fight.
Good luck trying to knock him up with a Q if you're playing as sion...
kile1471 votesI imagine it's more the poke with E, but I was basing that on data collection sites who show that both Nautilus and Sion have good winrates against him. Keep in mind that %Max Health damage is also reasonably countered by a %Max Health Shield which both Naut and Sion have.
Tails90161 votesExcept Gnar doesn't lose to any matchup except for champions more broken than him.
Do those exist? A good Gnar is like a good Udyr: Impossible to kill, and when you do finally kill them, you end up losing your Nexus.
Jinzo Torrance19 votesGnar E should have a 2 hour cooldown, he should only be able to jump once for game.
Fair nerf.
AirKingNeo2 votesOk hash
6Sfool14 votesUnlike Azir and Kalista, he has weaknesses. They were just outright broken when they were overtuned, but Gnar can be punished. Look at his winrate too, it doesn't just spike at pro level and sit at 40% on everything below, he's a champ for everybody.
The one issue I have with him is Frozen Mallet. That item is just stupid at this point.
kile1471 votesWhat is the issue with Frozen Mallet? Most champs can build IBG and do the exact same thing, the main users of FM are champs who want to build IBG but can't because they don't use mana (
,
). Pretty much any other champ who occasionally builds Frozen Mallet could just as easily build IBG but don't because Riot nerfed all the other high health items leaving only FM and Warmongs with more than 500 HP.
6Sfool3 votesGnar can already kite like hell, so FM is just oppressive. Yeah the stats are great, but I don't like when ranged champs have access to a permaslow. I don't build it when I play him, I stick to something like 
(I know it's not meta but it feels pretty good).
Without FM, he would still be viable and even good, but it would feel less like BS when you're facing him as a melee toplaner.
kile1474 votesYou are correct that he doesn't need it, I'm just saying that IBG does the exact same thing FM does. It doesn't really help him in losing lanes, you just win lanes you already win harder. If they wanted to instead replace it with a big health+AS item I'd love to build that instead on quite a few champs.
NinjaGuy6912 votesHe was literally gutted after Worlds 2016 and then slowly buffed back up over the course of Season 7. Gnar is always - ALWAYS - going to be a contested pick at Worlds if he's at least halfway decent simply due to all the team-fighting power he brings to a comp. That's just the way it works. Champions with high CC = good, Champions with low CC = bad (generally speaking).
LankPants39 votesGnar is an example of a champ who shouldn't be allowed to be half decent. He's a piss poor design, just like most of the other cancerous ranged toplaners in the game.
DeusVult15 votesyet Riot believes that he is good design because he has "times" that he can be played around
the only thing is that time is pretty small, you have to have some sort of teleport advantage, and your top laner has to not be already chunked out by mini-gnar.
Mini-gnar wins against all tank matchups, and does well into most carry top laners. Even into his counter matchups, there are ways to play around them and outplay them, while Gnar's opponent pretty much has to play perfect. One misplay and there is no escaping Q spam and W proc speed ups. Add and your dead.
Mega gnar is a team fight god, and still has huge burst while yet acting as a tank.
He does everything well, and does nothing poorly. You could say that he doesnt have sustain, but there is almost no way to trade into Gnar to make that a legitimate factor in a matchup
DeusVult7 votesLike you could say that you can pick 
but then you are forced into playing a split push, while gnar can still TP in and be a huge influence in a team fight
Generalist is a generalist
LankPants9 votesHe does everything well, and does nothing poorly. You could say that he doesnt have sustain, but there is almost no way to trade into Gnar to make that a legitimate factor in a matchup
He gains 200 odd HP when he transforms which he doesn't lose. He does have sustain in a way.
quasistellar3 votesThis x100000
Mini gnar is just a stupid good and oppressive laner Mega gnar is just a stupid good teamfighter
He either needs a damage nerf on his 3 hit proc, a longer cooldown after transforming from mega, or just a straight up shorter mega duration.
Poske10 votesHe was literally gutted after Worlds 2016 and then slowly buffed back up over the course of Season 7. Gnar is always - ALWAYS - going to be a contested pick at Worlds if he's at least halfway decent simply due to** being ranged toplaner because those are the best type of bullies.**
There fixed it for you
NinjaGuy696 votesThere fixed it for you
It isn't even that he's ranged. Sure, that's annoying but it's more Frozen Mallet that's the problem here. Not sure why they haven't removed it from the game yet. It's a niche item that's abused by the small number of champions who actually buy it.
Troll for Trump4 votesNo, you haven't seen good teemos/gnars.
Many top laners (if not most) will basically be screwed unless they get help from the jgl.
kile1473 votesFrozen Mallet is not any more of a problem than Iceborn Gaunlet, and is bought by the same type of champs for the same reason. IBG gives very similar amounts of sticking power, durability, and damage output, but since it gives mana it can't be built by Gnar and Shyvana the two biggest users of FM. To back up the sticking power similarity, remember that IBG gives a 30% slow (same as FM for Ranged) and has a 2 sec duration with a 1.5 sec cooldown. This basically means that once you have a bit of armor the zone becomes large enough that it's effectively a perma-slow just like FM.
Nevrankroaton22 votesGnar is considered by MANY challengers to be one of the 'broken' champ by design.
Gnar does everything well, he has mobility, CC, TF capacity, dueling, range, catch, peel. He only lack sustain and has somewhat a high CD on Q on the first levels.
There. That is it. Fight a REAL gnar. A good one.
PB4UAME4 votesHe gets sustain in the form of a massive heal when he tranforms, that he keeps as HP in mini.
Durzaka5 votesNot just his team-fighting power.
His laning phase is so strong it is ridiculous. And its safe too.
Rıots Bad Client8 votesIsn't he.... on the same boat as Kalista and Azir?
Nerfed after worlds. Slowly buffed to a monster. on worlds or shortly after. then Gutted.
I mean, kalista has a 100% ban rate? no? And azir was just recently nerfed for being to good.
correct me if I'm wrong.
KoKoboto5 votesI don't know why Mini Gnar is way more scary than Mega Gnar for a majority of the game...
Make Mini Gnar less obnoxious and make Mega Gnar more scary. Most of the time the Gnar player will play PASSIVE if they turn into Mega Gnar which is stupid AF.
YoungFarmer2 votesGnar is like shen, even whens hes bad in soloqueue hes good in pro
Critmaster Garen8 votes[{quoted}](name=Im A Cracker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w2BtZ05g,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-11-04T19:22:42.448+0000)
Gnar is like shen, even whens hes bad in soloqueue hes good in pro
hes not even ever bad in solo que.
YoungFarmer6 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w2BtZ05g,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-11-04T19:40:54.554+0000)
hes not even ever bad in solo que.
His 47% win rate in soloqueue suggests otherwise.
Critmaster Garen5 votes[{quoted}](name=Im A Cracker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w2BtZ05g,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-11-04T19:52:36.605+0000)
His 47% win rate in soloqueue suggests otherwise.
because hes easy to fuck up for beginners.
its like ryze or rivens winrate is typically low, because they need like 300 games until you really mastered them. and then theyre ridiculous to the point where you can take over and carry games with them reliably.
gnar doesnt have that steep of a learning curve but still somewhat. when youre somewhat practised on the champion you should be able to crush any matchup.
YoungFarmer1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w2BtZ05g,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-04T20:12:33.114+0000)
because hes easy to fuck up for beginners.
its like ryze or rivens winrate is typically low, because they need like 300 games until you really mastered them. and then theyre ridiculous to the point where you can take over and carry games with them reliably.
gnar doesnt have that steep of a learning curve but still somewhat. when youre somewhat practised on the champion you should be able to crush any matchup.
I do understand what you're saying but I'm just going by stats Gnar does have a slight learning curve but I think he can be picked up rather quickly. I personally believe draven is harder to play perfectly than Gnar yet dravens sitting at a 53% winrate. The thing I find with Gnar is that although he is incredibly strong at a lot of things he still suffers from something. The most annoying part about gnar is how incredibly well he kites, but he basically does it just as well as any other ranged toplaner. Gnars engage and CC is very good but incredibly telegraphed. You have to be a complete idiot to engage on a team with an enemy gnar whos nearing full rage.
PB4UAME1 votesHere are the stats, Gnar's with 0 games played, get a 47% winrate. Gnars with 300+ get a 58% winrate.
Most people are shit, and flock to blatantly over powered picks in the hope of freelo, despite having no idea how to play these champions, and doing so in ranked (often against people on their mains with hundred of games of experience). Gnar's pick rate is extremely high due to FotM flocking. If you look at the percentages of people who play Gnar based on their experience, surprise, surprise, the overhwleming majority have less than 50 games played on him, don't know what they are doing, or even what to build, and of course get their faces smashed in.
However, if you look at dedicated Gnar players, they have a fucking 58% winrate, which RIOT has stated is far beyond the level ANY CHAMPIONS MAINS SHOULD EVER SIT AT. Objectively, Gnar is blatantly overpowered. However, he requires experience to utilize that power. Just because the majority of people are clueless fucking chickens who flock to whatever is strong doesn't mean that the champion those dumbasses pick because they know his is way too strong, isn't actually strong.
Trying to fit a square into a round hole doesn't suddenly make it worse for this type of thing than a rectangle, or a circle, it's just people being fucking dumb.
YoungFarmer1 votesHere are the stats, Gnar's with 0 games played, get a 47% winrate. Gnars with 300+ get a 58% winrate.
Most people are shit, and flock to blatantly over powered picks in the hope of freelo, despite having no idea how to play these champions, and doing so in ranked (often against people on their mains with hundred of games of experience). Gnar's pick rate is extremely high due to FotM flocking. If you look at the percentages of people who play Gnar based on their experience, surprise, surprise, the overhwleming majority have less than 50 games played on him, don't know what they are doing, or even what to build, and of course get their faces smashed in.
However, if you look at dedicated Gnar players, they have a fucking 58% winrate, which RIOT has stated is far beyond the level ANY CHAMPIONS MAINS SHOULD EVER SIT AT. Objectively, Gnar is blatantly overpowered. However, he requires experience to utilize that power. Just because the majority of people are clueless fucking chickens who flock to whatever is strong doesn't mean that the champion those dumbasses pick because they know his is way too strong, isn't actually strong.
Trying to fit a square into a round hole doesn't suddenly make it worse for this type of thing than a rectangle, or a circle, it's just people being fucking dumb.
You shouldn't use champion.gg for statistics because they are often wrong.
has a 57.77% winrate with 50-100 games, does that mean shaco is blatantly op?
PB4UAME1 votesWho ever said I used champion.gg other than you? Nice strawman though, I guess? Not sure what your point is.
Great Fox2 votesOh please shut up.
Op.gg only measures games in Plat+ elo in Solo Queue, so no, it's not "Beginners" f'ing him up.
Critmaster Garen7 votes[{quoted}](name=Great Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w2BtZ05g,comment-id=00080000000000000001,timestamp=2017-11-05T01:13:18.806+0000)
Oh please shut up.
Op.gg only measures games in Plat+ elo in Solo Queue, so no, it's not "Beginners" f'ing him up.
beginners to the champion. not beginners to the game.
there is a 10% difference in winrate between people who play him for the first time, and people who played him 200+ games. statistics show that he has a far above average pickrate. thats means his winrate is deflated by a whole lot of people who are just picking him up. (and as you said, these statistics are all taken from plat+ games. so were talking about first time gnars vs. 200+ games gnars at plat+).
his overall winrate is at 47% to 48%. his winrate for people who main him is at a fucking 58%. thats at least 3% above whats acceptable even for people who main the champion. an above 50% winrate for mains to a champion is always to be expected, but it should be around 54% to 55%.
to put this into context, gnars winrate right now is the same as ahris this season, when she dominated mid lane before her nerfs. she too had a 58% winrate in the hands of people who mained her.
gnars winrate shows somewhat of a learning curve, but hes still clearly overtuned in the hands of someone whos proficient with him, and should get hit by a pretty decent nerf.
SkyblazeHydraX32 votesI honestly think it's Frozen Mallet that breaks Gnar, if it does. In Mini Gnar he's ranged DPS who's supposed to manage his positioning and kite by way of boomerang slows and hyper procs. But with Frozen Mallet he can just run down enemies relentlessly until he rages and turns into a hulking beast of CC.
Frozen Mallet when even remotely decent allows a lot of champions to completely nullify their primary weaknesses. Remember when it was built on Master Yi? On Shyvana? Riot's had to nerf it into statistic impracticality because the passive alone is so ridiculously powerful, and you can see that on Urgot and Gnar. It's the same problem as spellvamp used to be, and Hextech Gunblade is now; the item makes the champion too strong, so they have to be balanced around the possibility of buying that item, which then pigeonholes them into buying said item to be effective.
Frozen Mallet is incredibly niche, and of the 140 champions out you can count the number of them who buy it on one hand. Also it's really, really frustrating to fight against because it lacks any counterplay. Personally I think Riot needs to completely overhaul it or remove the item entirely.
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