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"Veigars R punishes for stacking AP"

Saianna··9 votes·1,970 views

Lee Sin performs a powerful roundhouse kick launching an enemy champion back, dealing 200/400/600 (+2*Bonus AD) physical damage to the target and any enemies they collide with. Enemies the target collides with are knocked into the air for a short duration. Every time the target collides with an enemy champion, the target also deals 12/15/18% of their bonus health as physical damage.

Veigars R CD: 120/100/80s Lee R CD: 90/75/60s

Veigar R dmg: 250/375/500 ( 1.0 AP ratio) plus 80% of enemy AP [single target] Lee R damage: 200/400/600 (2.0 Bonus AD ratio) plus 12/15/18% bonus health of kicked target ["AoE"]

Granted, Lee doesn't have infinite scalling on his Q, but thanks to his overall base damage & higher ratios his overall damage on R can easily compete with feed Veigar. Both of them have additional bonuses. For Veigar it's 80% of enemy AP, while Lees' % bonus health of target he kicked. On top of that Lees' ultimate has much shorter cooldown.

So why am I being punished by building HP if that will eventually kill my squishy teammates behind me, just cause Lee kicked me in their way?

So OP So Unfair! Call FBI CIA FPS KFC OMG WTF to nerf him. Nao!!!?!111111one

Yes, I know Lee doesn't build glass cannon. But maybe he should? Or Veigar should build tankish? Point is: It's unique ability. Don't ask for nerfs or rework just cause you've died too many times by it. Point #2 is: Maybe it's about time to consider building some MR (Banshee anyone?) and play safe against Veigar? Point #3 is: I hate you all, Hypocrites. You want to nerf Veigar just so your main could have easier time. You don't care about balancing in the slighest. Otherwise you'd want Lee nerfed too.

EDIT: Found pic of casual Board user http://www.substance.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/wooly-sheep-ramona-johnston.jpg

You guys are so sad. I'm just pointing out similarity of mechanic you hate, but you don't care.

44 Comments

Lost In Time3 votes

I've seen Veigar literally one shot champions from full HP. FROM FULL HP.

Lee is lucky to kill you with a Q>R>Q>Auto>W combo if you're full HP.

Saianna1 votes

And how many glass-cannon full AD Lees have you seen?

Hmm?

Caue I did. In Aram. and damage from his kick could have easily killed a squishy. It was pre-R buff on Lee.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

And how many glass-cannon full AD Lees have you seen?

Hmm?

Caue I did. In Aram. and damage from his kick could have easily killed a squishy. It was pre-R buff on Lee.

ARAM... you do know that you can go AP Nasus in that thing and be even more effective than AD nasus or tank Nasus right? You can literally build anything in ARAM and do relatively well. Try using a full glass cannon build on SR with Lee and tell me how well that goes the instant you far behind even slightly

PDE5 Inhibitors3 votes

Cool. Build 6 max AP items and Veigar will probably do that. Kind of common sense.

Lost In Time1 votes

[{quoted}](name=PDE5 Inhibitors,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vxzef701,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-10-14T13:43:04.586+0000)

Cool. Build 6 max AP items and Veigar will probably do that. Kind of common sense.

So how is that not in line with the title??

PDE5 Inhibitors2 votes

Me, and OP, are saying that it's your fault for being a dumb dumb and building 6 max AP items.

Penns2 votes

Veigar will oneshot your adc with 4 items and good q farm with only his ult lel.

PDE5 Inhibitors2 votes

If your ADC doesn't build BV against a Veigar within 4 items, your fault. Also, why is your ADC trying to 1v1 Veigar? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Nor have I seen a non-superfed Veigar 1 shot an ADC with just ulty. So, I call bullshit.

Penns3 votes

He doesnt have to "try to 1v1 Veigar", he just has to get caught/ flashed on while farming, dont act like that never happens, were certainly not talking about challenjour at 1 million points and even there it might happen lol. What annoys me is how normal champs have like 400 ap max with 2-3 ap items, Veigar... well... https://i.gyazo.com/7c9e786b7193a2a8b3f71960b87b4270.png "superfed" "ranked"

PDE5 Inhibitors4 votes

That picture literally says nothing. And if you get caught out, your fault. I don't think we should punish champs for other's bad play. If Veigar gets caught out, he is dead too. You're obviously trolling so I'm not going to talk to you anymore.

Penns2 votes

That picture literally says nothing other than "Veigar is fucking broken", ure right. If it wasnt ranked it might not say much but it was. What carry exactly doesnt die if caught out? I dont know many examples (Ahri )that dont trade CC or damage or wave clear for that, but even Ahri is dead when shes CCd and focussed down. TF and Lux are one of the best mid laners atm as well and they dont have mobility either + "Lux dmg can be dodged". Whatever, pretty much everyone agrees that Veigar is retardedly broken right now, so youre probably just a Veigar main topkek

PDE5 Inhibitors2 votes

That picture does not say Veigar is broken at all. If you let Veigar free farm to the point of 800+ AP, it's completely 100% your fault and you deserve to die.

No, I'm not a Veigar main. And the only people that are saying Veigar is broken are dumb dumbs that build 100% straight AP against him, don't pressure him, and have never played a game as Veigar to know where he sucks. Please stop being a dumb dumb business major.

Penns2 votes

Yeah everything is completely 100% your fault and you deserve to die, nothing could get close to being out of balance. His Q has nearly 1000 range, hf stopping him from farming when his laning phase isnt even that weak, the biggest problem he has is mana early game if he plays well.

Every single high elo player says that Veigar is the best mid laner, or at least in the top 2-3 mid laners, if not the most broken champ in the entire game right now, so I guess theyre all "dumb dumbs" lol.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Lee is lucky to kill you with a Q>R>Q>Auto>W combo if you're full HP.

Lucky to kill you? With just Rav Hydra this WILL kill you... and he will take like no damage in the process....

Left Hook Larry3 votes

You're silver on a shitty server. You have no idea what you're talking about just like half these scrubs here

PDE5 Inhibitors2 votes

Yes, because NA is soooo competitive. kappa

Left Hook Larry1 votes

Mad cuz silver hiding on on smurf

PDE5 Inhibitors1 votes

? I didn't make this post so why do you think I'm his smurf lol?

I simply pointed out that NA is no more competitive than EU, so it's dumb to make your silly comments.

Left Hook Larry1 votes

You're on a level 8 account because you know your main is silver

You were trying to make a shitty joke based on the pro scene, which is completely different to normal solo que.

Normal solo que is basically the same thing in all big regions. The only difference is in the pro scene, which is why you're stupid as fuck

PDE5 Inhibitors1 votes

I'm on a level 8 account because I have not played enough games to reach level 9 yet :) (well, actually probably more so that I haven't won enough games to get level 9)

First you tell OP that EU is a shitty server, then you say all servers are the same. How dumb are you?

Let's summarize. I say, "NA is no more competitive than EU." You then reply that all regions are basically the same, which is why I'm stupid as fuck. I honestly don't understand how someone can be that dumb. Please stop business majoring all over the place.

Left Hook Larry1 votes

Can comprehend my words? I said all the big regions. He's on EUNE not EUW. There's a difference. I've played on both and EUW similar to NA, while EUNE is trash

CISTERN3 votes

U never target apc instead of adc, veigar is the only one can do that, thats why people dont like veigar because they must play differently and they are lazy to do that (even pros at solo q)

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

U never target apc instead of adc, veigar is the only one can do that, thats why people dont like veigar because they must play differently and they are lazy to do that (even pros at solo q)

No, people don't like Veigar because they don't like being 100-0'd by a single ability with zero counterplay by the 25 minute mark.

CISTERN1 votes

{quoted}

No, people don't like Veigar because they don't like being 100-0'd by a single ability with zero counterplay by the 25 minute mark.

I find cool to get one shotted by a single ability as long hourglass is there for ap champs! that's is the reason u never try to one shot ap champions, is always failure to try burst someone with hourglass , I like veigar because makes this fucen ap utopia nightmare, if they remove hourglass then I can agree with u, for real hourglass remove the only counterplay u have against mages/ap assasins. Dps them when they dont have coolodowns, not a true argument with hourglass, then this game needs some champions as ap nemesis. 'There is no counterplay', like there is counterplay vs lissandra with hourglass

Sinister Anubis2 votes

Lee is a bruiser/fighter and is extemely mobile also hes melee, veiger is not and veigar is a mage counter to ap champions. Why compare the 2 they are completely different

Saianna3 votes

First: don't give me that sorry argument that Lee is a bruiser/figher. Zyra/Annie were mid mages, yet somehow it was ok to throw them into support role. Lee can be even AP if you are willing.

Second: In a teamfight Lee will still manage to kick a tank towards their squishes. Even if built as a glass cannon. Which will deal as much damage as Veigars R.

I just compare their ultimates as both of them share that % of enemy stat as bonus damage. If in Veigars case it's unhealthy, then so is in Lees.

Left Hook Larry1 votes

Lee sin builds full dmg he gets shit on? And you won't be getting 4 man ults every kick?

CISTERN2 votes

I like veigar as ally for real, as long zonyans is here, i like champions that can burst ap quishy champs. But when ap champions that are entertain to watch die instant is unhealthy , when adc dies instantly is play xD, HELL NO ALL SQUISHY CHAMPIONS SUPPOSED TO OPPOSE SOME INSTANT BURST MECHANICS APCS 2, so veigar is k for me. I dont even play veigar or marksmen

Salron2 votes

Nice Strawman argument you got there

Saianna1 votes

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean :(

Salron1 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean :(

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent."

You're comparing Veigar ult to Lee Sin ult which has nothing to do with Veigar's state of balance. You're not actually responding to the issue at hand, only derailing it by comparing it to Lee sin

Saianna1 votes

Hmm you are right, I guess.

All I wanted to point out is there are similar abilties like Veigars ultimate that punish enemy for doing good. For this example I've used Lee.

I didn't make Veigar-thread with possible solutions or ways of balancing him due to: a) lack of confidence if my solutions could be worth a cent b) Lots of other Veigar-related threads c) knowing that Riot ignores everything that could be helpfull somehow. d) I don't believe a casual player, like me, sees every crack & error in Veigars balance.

All i know is: Veigars ultimate is cool thing. I've played him before "seasons" were made (before ranked) and i Enjoyed playing him. Maybe 80% is bit too much, but I believe removing it would be just stupid.

Fiveofswords2 votes

basically jsut simple common sense. Veigar is one of the MANY champs who will nuke the hell out of you. period. Hes not the only one. Im surprised i dont see mroe people cry about leblanc for example...cause her jumpy death combo really seems almost impossible to avoid...while if veigar manages to stun you then you totally goofed. Why let him do that?

it really doesnt matter how it scales. It does a ton of damage. obviously if you are an ap champ its not liek you arent going to build ap just cause veiger is on other team...all you need to realize is that veigar can chunk the hell out of you quickly...jsut like leblanc, annie, i dunno plenty of guys. build some mr if you need to. kill him first if you need to. this is not an unusual situation in lol and idk why people are confused by it.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

if a Lee is one shotting you then you are doing something horribly wrong. Veigar can one shot you with his R even if you don't stack any AP and if you have any amount of AP you might as well not even bother trying to fight him while he has his R available unless you can 100-0 before he can react

Saianna1 votes

You don't get it do you? w/e

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

You don't get it do you? w/e

you are the one who doesn't get it. Lee put himself in considerable danger to do anything while Veigar can just sit back and spam Qs while trying to stun you and delete you the instant a stun lands or you get close enough to him that he can hit you with his R. Don't compare abilities like they are 1 to 1 when the champions themselves are not even remotely close

Maximum Morde3 votes

{quoted}

Veigar can one shot you with his R even if you don't stack any AP.

Bullshit. Veigars R does 500 + 100% AP if his target has none. A typical enemy has roughly 2k health. Veigar would need 1500 AP to do this much damage with just R. I've achieved this amount on Veigar maybe once or twice, the game typically ends long before you get near this much AP. That all is ignoring MR. Most targets with only runes and masteries will have about 20-30% reduction from It. Considering MR and Magic Pen on Veigar, they might end up around 15% damage reduction on the low end so I'll use that. At 15% damage reduction Veigar needs to do 2350 damage with his ult to one shot a 2k hp target, so he needs 1850 AP. I have NEVER gotten or heard of anyone getting anywhere near that much AP in a game.

What is really happening is you are getting deleted by Q+R+Ignite, with maybe even W thrown in there. But, so many other assassins and mages do the same thing and instantly delete people. Lux full combo will delete most squishies, so will Zed, LeBlanc, Fizz, the list goes on. And most of those do it even safer than Veigar can. The problem isn't Veigars damage, it's that his E is as powerful as some Champions ults. And it's already taken several nerfs for it.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

Granted, Lee doesn't have infinite scalling on his Q, but thanks to his overall base damage & higher ratios his overall damage on R can easily compete with feed Veigar.

lol

Nahui1 votes

I'm gonna leave this bit of truth on you.

Veigar's damage is consistent. Whoever he ults gets that damage no matter what. This max health damage lee sin gets is very situational. And actually, he typically doesn't kick tanks. He kicks squishies. It's very rare you'll see Lee Sin get the true potential of his ult off, however Veigar gets it off every time.

Also, yes. Veigar builds glass cannon. Lee Sin builds bruiser. There's no "Well maybe he should build glass cannon" or "Maybe veigar should build tanky". Lolno, shut up. Veigar is best when he has PURE AP, so he will always build glass cannon. Lee Sin is best building bruiser so he doesn't melt when going in, so he will build bruiser.

Lee can't compete to a fed veigar in terms of damage. Veigar's raw damage is far superior. I'm not saying nerf veigar, I'm just saying your argument make me cringe.

Penns1 votes

The difference is that Lee punishes champs that stack HP (which are broken atm) by being good and ulting them right + giving up his insec thingy. Veigar punishes every ap champ for trying to be useful by pressing 1 button.

Sasogwa1 votes

{quoted}

The difference is that Lee punishes champs that stack HP (which are broken atm) by being good and ulting them right + giving up his insec thingy. Veigar punishes every ap champ for trying to be useful by pressing 1 button.

I'm not sure stepping up and being in range of Veigar's ult as a backline mage, on top of not building any defensive item, is trying to be useful. It's more like intentional feeding to me.

CoolKnightST1 votes

He can still oneshot any adc with his ult.

Borror1 votes

You aren't punished for building Health against Lee. If you get ulted and and hit your teammate, then your teammate is punished for you building health and YOU took a smaller percentage of your maximum health as damage because your items gave you more health. And since ( 4 teammates * 18% of your bonus health < 100% of your bonus health * 1 you), your team as a whole still benefits from you building health even if it hits all of your teammates unless there is a pretty big difference in armor between you and the average of your teammates but that is mostly just punishing your team for lining up just right for Lee. But usually, building health is benefiting you, harmful to your teammates, but benifits the whole team. If you hit a teammate, then Lee's ult does make building health not as good for your team as it would normally although still benifits, but it is better for you personally and not as good for your teammates, but it is usually their fault for getting hit.

Saianna1 votes

That's why I tried to say.

As lol is "team game" (hue soloQ hue) if 1 team loses just cause 1 of its members do bit too good, then it is kinda not cool.

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