Riot. Nerf. Tank. Fiora. Right. Now.

Saianna·Feb 1, 2016·129 votes·7,807 views

Tank Fiora is wrecking the game in most unpleasant ways possible.

Guys, you know what's more annoying than Tank Fiora?

A tank Fiora that deals %HP true damage in your sad face.

Lets be honest here. Fiora is atrocious because of her undeserved true damage bandaid to make her "work" somehow. Why Fioras passive doesn't scale with AD? With some bonus to armor penetration? Because everyone would soon notice how lame her rework is. Nothing makes champion as shiny and cool as true damage.

159 Comments

Nagoh ShanFeb 1, 201632 votes

Why Fioras passive doesn't scale with AD?

3% base with the rest coming from AD scaling.

Yay they did exactly what you want!

SaiannaFeb 1, 20164 votes

I'm sorry I meant why it doesn't deal physical damage :)

Nagoh ShanFeb 1, 201630 votes

Mainly because the goal was to ensure that Fiora is a threat, as a fighter, to both tanks and squishies. If it deals physical damage, then the damage has to be high enough to make it disproportionately strong against squishies.

Remember true damage is just 100% penetration that isn't effected by damage boosts.

%maxHP true damage was the only way to make a fighter that's equally threatening to both types of enemies without being disproportionately strong vs one or the other. Also she doesn't delete people until she's very far ahead, so she does have to play ring around the rosy in a fight to maximize damage.

It really does seem like people are annoyed because they have the wrong mindset, wanting to know what to pick to beat her, rather than picking a strong pick and learning what to do to beat her.

SaiannaFeb 1, 20166 votes

I am really sorry, but for me that explanation is simply put bad.

Hinagiku33Feb 1, 201631 votes

That's because you aren't a game designer and are only thinking as a player.

I actually wasn't too thrilled with Riot giving Fiora true damage just because they have a bad history with balancing it. But there were some red posts that made a valid argument.

Basically, Fiora as a duelist needs something to combat tanks otherwise she isn't really a duelist and just an extremely terrible assassin due to having a kit with little burst and a focus on sustained damage. Riot could just make her an AD assassin that deletes you off the Rift in 1.5 seconds, but you probably don't want them to do that. In order to ever be worth picking she needs to be able to apply her sustained damage pattern to tanks and very tanky fighters (like juggernauts) or else she will never be worth picking over them.

Riot could give her physical damage...but then we run into a huge problem. In order to ever be a threat to tanks that stack armor and health against her, that physical damage is going to need to be so high that she would turn squishies into a red mist as fast as an assassin...which is the play pattern Riot doesn't want her to have. True damage helps get through resistance stacking, but flat true damage has always been better against squishies and not that great against tanks and bruisers since they also stack health. Percent-based damage is powerful, but if it's physical or magic damage then the numbers need to be insanely high to be any threat to a tank since they have enough resistances to negate a huge amount of that damage.

Enter % Max Health True Damage. It sounds so horrible but does something amazing from a design perspective - It makes it so tanks get hit hard enough to be threatened while squishies aren't instantly blown up.

Here's some math:

Let's say Fiora can hit for 10% max hp true damage.

How many hits does it take to kill a squishy? : 10 How many hits does it take to kill a tank? : also 10

Now lets say Fiora can hit for 200 damage against an armor/health stacking tank and 1,000 against an unarmored squishy.

How many hits does it take to kill a 2,000 health squishy? : 2 How many hits does it take to kill a 4,000 health tank? : 20

Now she explodes carries faster than LeBlanc and takes too long to kill a tank to effectively duel, making her just another assassin that is only good at deleting carries and useless against tanks and bruisers...with a sustained damage kit that also makes her kind of suck against carries.

I personally hate the very idea of a tank!Fiora and will only ever play her full AD glass cannon, but that's just a stupidly risky play-style for most people - especially on a champ designed to not instantly burst her targets - so it's hard to fault them for building an abomination like tanky!Fiora if it's the only way they can survive and if the items are powerful enough to make it work (and good god the items are powerful enough). Her base values and stats are already pretty low and most of her damage is in her scalings as it is, I'm not really sure what you want Riot to do aside from nerf tank items from also dealing damage.

But seriously, if you think tank!Fiora deals lots of damage you better pray you never go up against a good Fiora.

SaiannaFeb 1, 20164 votes

Basically, Fiora as a duelist needs something to combat tanks otherwise she isn't really a duelist

........

Listen, True Damage is very risky option. No matter from what point, players or designers. It's the cheapest way of giving artificial power. Without it Fiora would not survive. And not because she would be weaker than enemies, but because she'd be on equal level with them. All this passive does is slowly giving her power she shouldn't have and scales her in lategame better than her enemies. That all.

What if her vitals were % hp PHYSICAL damage with built in 40% armor reduction? Or even 50%. That way Tanks could still build against her.

Would it hurt her "duelist" bullshit? Yeah definitely. But it could be an opportunity to buff her somewhere else, so Riot/Fiora fans could still have this duelist wet dream.

4th3t0sFeb 1, 20163 votes

{quoted}

........

Listen, True Damage is very risky option. No matter from what point, players or designers. It's the cheapest way of giving artificial power. Without it Fiora would not survive. And not because she would be weaker than enemies, but because she'd be on equal level with them. All this passive does is slowly giving her power she shouldn't have and scales her in lategame better than her enemies. That all.

What if her vitals were % hp PHYSICAL damage with built in 40% armor reduction? Or even 50%. That way Tanks could still build against her.

Would it hurt her "duelist" bullshit? Yeah definitely. But it could be an opportunity to buff her somewhere else, so Riot/Fiora fans could still have this duelist wet dream.

On that note, what if each vital struck gave her a cumulative buff ignoring X% of the targets armor over a short time?

Nagoh ShanFeb 1, 20162 votes

The resulting increase to her base damages that would have to happen to prevent her from being useless would turn her in to the games biggest assassin, killing squishies early game in a similar fashion that she does when fed, late game, currently.

TL:DR - The bad things that would do is the exact reason she got %health true damage instead.

Hinagiku33Feb 1, 201622 votes

...How is anything in this game "artificial power"? It's very real damage (as everyone constantly complains about) and she pays for it by having low base stats, low base damage values, and not really having any other options to hurt you. I mean really, her Q doesn't do stellar damage, her E does okay damage until late game and even then only with a full AD build - both abilities are designed entirely to proc her vital marks and are terrible to rely on for damage on their own.

But seriously, that true damage passive/ult is so much of Fiora's power budget that if you took it away she'd be literally the most powerless champ in the game.

Here's what really bothers me though:

"That way Tanks could still build against her."

This is where you, and many other people, completely miss the point. You assume that counter-building is the only thing that matters. Do you counter-build a skillshot? No, dodging skillshots is a skill you as a player always have regardless of items and we call that counter-play. I play around other Fiora's all the time and I've had people that just complete trashed me in lane because they knew how to play around my vital marks.

Tanks are not supposed to build against her vital marks. That part is completely intentional by Riot. You are not supposed to build against them - you are supposed to play against them. This is admittedly way harder to do if you let her get fed, but it's not that bad in lane if you focus on what she is doing, react to what she is doing, and stop defeating yourself before you even get into lane by getting bummed out that you can't just build a Chain Vest and ignore her.

By the way, that is exactly the reason why Fiora deals true damage. Why do you even want Fiora's vital damage to by physical? Because you want to just build armor and get to ignore her. That's exactly what Riot doesn't want to happen. Sure, you could give her massively amped up damage values. Sure, you could give her massive amount of armor shred and just flat out ignore huge amounts of armor.

But if you are going to do that anyway, why not just let her have the true damage and adjust the values? It took a while for it to grow on me, but the % Max Health True Damage is a rather elegant solution that does exactly the same thing as what you suggested with fewer side effects caused by massive amounts of physical damage against squishies.

SoMNiaFeb 1, 20167 votes

Exactly this. So many tanks are so uncreative that their only response to damage is to build more stats and see how long they can ignore it. So when a champion comes along that doesn't care about their armor, they throw a fit, just like they've been doing over Vayne for ages.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 1, 20168 votes

To be fair vayne had flat AND hp% true damage for a long time which heavily muddied the tank vs squishy killing of the ability (especially along with her ults AD, and tumble AD scaling), but they did finally drop the flat true damage on Vayne which dropped a good bit of complaints I had about her.

CrossetteFeb 1, 20163 votes

Fiora with true damage STILL kills squishies faster than a LeBlanc, and SOMEHOW SAFER.

chipndip1Feb 1, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Fiora with true damage STILL kills squishies faster than a LeBlanc, and SOMEHOW SAFER.

In what dream/nightmare? Don't lie to me.

Weiner the PoohFeb 1, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fiora All Night,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zw9clXw,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-01T02:46:02.229+0000)

That's because you aren't a game designer and are only thinking as a player.

I actually wasn't too thrilled with Riot giving Fiora true damage just because they have a bad history with balancing it. But there were some red posts that made a valid argument.

Basically, Fiora as a duelist needs something to combat tanks otherwise she isn't really a duelist and just an extremely terrible assassin due to having a kit with little burst and a focus on sustained damage. Riot could just make her an AD assassin that deletes you off the Rift in 1.5 seconds, but you probably don't want them to do that. In order to ever be worth picking she needs to be able to apply her sustained damage pattern to tanks and very tanky fighters (like juggernauts) or else she will never be worth picking over them.

Riot could give her physical damage...but then we run into a huge problem. In order to ever be a threat to tanks that stack armor and health against her, that physical damage is going to need to be so high that she would turn squishies into a red mist as fast as an assassin...which is the play pattern Riot doesn't want her to have. True damage helps get through resistance stacking, but flat true damage has always been better against squishies and not that great against tanks and bruisers since they also stack health. Percent-based damage is powerful, but if it's physical or magic damage then the numbers need to be insanely high to be any threat to a tank since they have enough resistances to negate a huge amount of that damage.

Enter % Max Health True Damage. It sounds so horrible but does something amazing from a design perspective - It makes it so tanks get hit hard enough to be threatened while squishies aren't instantly blown up.

Here's some math:

Let's say Fiora can hit for 10% max hp true damage.

How many hits does it take to kill a squishy? : 10 How many hits does it take to kill a tank? : also 10

Now lets say Fiora can hit for 200 damage against an armor/health stacking tank and 1,000 against an unarmored squishy.

How many hits does it take to kill a 2,000 health squishy? : 2 How many hits does it take to kill a 4,000 health tank? : 20

Now she explodes carries faster than LeBlanc and takes too long to kill a tank to effectively duel, making her just another assassin that is only good at deleting carries and useless against tanks and bruisers...with a sustained damage kit that also makes her kind of suck against carries.

I personally hate the very idea of a tank!Fiora and will only ever play her full AD glass cannon, but that's just a stupidly risky play-style for most people - especially on a champ designed to not instantly burst her targets - so it's hard to fault them for building an abomination like tanky!Fiora if it's the only way they can survive and if the items are powerful enough to make it work (and good god the items are powerful enough). Her base values and stats are already pretty low and most of her damage is in her scalings as it is, I'm not really sure what you want Riot to do aside from nerf tank items from also dealing damage.

But seriously, if you think tank!Fiora deals lots of damage you better pray you never go up against a good Fiora.

I 100% agree with this, i only ever go full ad Fiora too, i think the tankiest ive ever gone was like a Randuins against a super Yasuo or something.

AheadatimeFeb 1, 20166 votes

I don't get why she has to duel tanks. She needs %max true damage to duel tanks, yet her %max is the issue with her kit. So why not just have her not be a tank dueler? Her behavior towards tanks should be to kill them early, like Renek, Riven, etc. She has enough tools in her kit to make her strong without that true damage. She should have to build AD to access her power, like most other top laners.

YumaS2AstralFeb 1, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I don't get why she has to duel tanks. She needs %max true damage to duel tanks, yet her %max is the issue with her kit. So why not just have her not be a tank dueler? Her behavior towards tanks should be to kill them early, like Renek, Riven, etc. She has enough tools in her kit to make her strong without that true damage. She should have to build AD to access her power, like most other top laners.

Because she is the Grand Duelist. If she wasn't able to duel everyone including tanks, she wouldn't be the Grand Duelist.

To be honest, though, there are still other ways to deal with her other than trying to 1x1 her. Don't complain about Fiora being able to 1x1 everyone, that's exactly what she is supposed to do.

AheadatimeFeb 1, 20166 votes

You just gave me literally nothing to work with.

"Because she has an arbitrary in-game title. Don't complain that she can 1v1 everyone in the game."

You see how there's no content there? She was designed for a lane that's exclusively 1v1, and given tools to be able to 1v1 every champion. That's like creating an adc that fires two shots with every auto that auto-target nearby champions and draw no aggro. "Because the adc was designed as the 'bot killer', stop complaining."

There are plenty of champions that have tools to kill tanks early game, or zone them off cs so they don't scale well. Vlad, Kennen, Renekton, Riven, Teemo, Rumble, etc. They don't have % true damage, yet their kits allow them to harass or kill tanks early game. This is fair. There's counterplay. There's relevant scaling and item choices.

YumaS2AstralFeb 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You just gave me literally nothing to work with.

"Because she has an arbitrary in-game title. Don't complain that she can 1v1 everyone in the game."

You see how there's no content there? She was designed for a lane that's exclusively 1v1, and given tools to be able to 1v1 every champion. That's like creating an adc that fires two shots with every auto that auto-target nearby champions and draw no aggro. "Because the adc was designed as the 'bot killer', stop complaining."

There are plenty of champions that have tools to kill tanks early game, or zone them off cs so they don't scale well. Vlad, Kennen, Renekton, Riven, Teemo, Rumble, etc. They don't have % true damage, yet their kits allow them to harass or kill tanks early game. This is fair. There's counterplay. There's relevant scaling and item choices.

I was not talking about the title itself. It is that Fiora is meant to be the best duelist in the game because that's what her theme is about.

And a champion being able to 1x1 anybody does not necessarily make it OP. It depends from a lot of other factors, having insane 1x1 potential does not make anyone OP.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 1, 20166 votes

If she is dueling the tank in a teamfight she has already failed. However, should a tank -- or any other type of champion for that matter -- decide to engage in a 1v1 with Fiora, they should expect no less than the most challenging duel from the Grand Duelist herself.

TL;DR if you can't duel Fiora (due to kit limitations I'd assume) then why try to duel Fiora? Just go win teamfights instead.

chipndip1Feb 1, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I don't get why she has to duel tanks.

"The Grand Duelist"

Idk...[slayer-jinx-unamused] [zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-nunu-bummed]

AheadatimeFeb 1, 20162 votes

I already responded to this a post or two up, but you missed it. I'll copy paste here.

You just gave me literally nothing to work with.

"Because she has an arbitrary in-game title. Don't complain that she can 1v1 everyone in the game."

chipndip1Feb 1, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I already responded to this a post or two up, but you missed it. I'll copy paste here.

You just gave me literally nothing to work with.

"Because she has an arbitrary in-game title. Don't complain that she can 1v1 everyone in the game."

You see how there's no content there? She was designed for a lane that's exclusively 1v1, and given tools to be able to 1v1 every champion. That's like creating an adc that fires two shots with every auto that auto-target nearby champions and draw no aggro. "Because the adc was designed as the 'bot killer', stop complaining."

There are plenty of champions that have tools to kill tanks early game, or zone them off cs so they don't scale well. Vlad, Kennen, Renekton, Riven, Teemo, Rumble, etc. They don't have % true damage, yet their kits allow them to harass or kill tanks early game. This is fair. There's counterplay. There's relevant scaling and item choices.

She's THE GRAND DUELIST. The point to her whole character is dueling. If there's a champ she can't take on 1v1, what's the point of her design being centered around 1v1 dueling power? This doesn't mean that Riot's stupid enough to design a champ that literally auto-wins any 1v1 scenario. It just means she does well in them + she can take on a wider array of possible threats so long as it's 1v1 (and she's built for it).

Fio's problems are primarily a numbers problem more than anything, but she should be able to build a heavier build and function. She's a fighter, anyway.

AheadatimeFeb 1, 20162 votes

You seem to be ignoring the complexities of power spikes. My argument is that she should be able to duel any champ sufficiently early game. She doesn't need true damage. She needs a good physical damage reward for her vitals, along with the other dueling aspects already present in her kit (AS slow, damage mitigation, CC igonore, dashes).

Now that she's won early game (if she's a skilled player), she can use that exp and gold to press her advantage, buying damage items to capitalize on her scalings.

She can still be a duelist without having %max HP true damage. I don't know why you think the two are interconnected. And don't say 'bc then she can't duel tanks', cuz that's bull. Tanks aren't tanky early game, period. I play renek top alot and run into malphs, maos, and gnars all the time. I almost always dominate my lane early, buy more damage, and continue to dominate throughout the mid game.

item 3071 item 3142 item 3036 summoner 14

chipndip1Feb 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You seem to be ignoring the complexities of power spikes. My argument is that she should be able to duel any champ sufficiently early game. She doesn't need true damage. She needs a good physical damage reward for her vitals, along with the other dueling aspects already present in her kit (AS slow, damage mitigation, CC igonore, dashes).

Now that she's won early game (if she's a skilled player), she can use that exp and gold to press her advantage, buying damage items to capitalize on her scalings.

She can still be a duelist without having %max HP true damage. I don't know why you think the two are interconnected. And don't say 'bc then she can't duel tanks', cuz that's bull. Tanks aren't tanky early game, period. I play renek top alot and run into malphs, maos, and gnars all the time. I almost always dominate my lane early, buy more damage, and continue to dominate throughout the mid game.

The reason why in her case is because she's literally the duelist champ. She should always be able to duel so long as she isn't behind. That's her thing. That's how she functions in this game. Why make it so Fio's dueling potential can't hold a candle to...Batgirl with a crossbow on her arm?

So to make that work, she has to be able to duel without being overbearing to one class of champ or the other. Using % max health phys dmg would mean she would need a ton of it to properly fight tanks, meaning she'd either be useless against tanks or too strong against squishies. Flat amounts of true damage would be out-scaled via health stacking + it'd be stronger on squishies. Flat physical damage is even worse in this regard. The % max health true dmg option makes it so her reward for hitting her target is equal no matter who she hit. It makes her a good anti-tank option without actually deleting carries faster than LeBlanc, and this is fine. Sometimes people want other ways of fighting tanks than "bring your own tanks".

If anything, her Riposte could do less early damage seeing how it's primarily a defensive move or the invincibility window could be reduced. If I were in charge, I'd also make her ult only heal her rather than her whole team or make her ult heal her team for a lesser amount (perhaps 1/2). You can sell the "morale boost" concept if you try hard enough, but Fio's the one basking in glory of her win, so allowing everyone to heal the same amount is kind of cheesy. However, tank busting isn't a problem.

Left Hook LarryFeb 1, 20161 votes

Malphite is a fucking mountain. why can't he just 1 shot everyone in the game with his r?

chipndip1Feb 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Savage Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zw9clXw,comment-id=0002000000000000000000030001000100010001,timestamp=2016-02-01T22:19:20.922+0000)

Malphite is a fucking mountain. why can't he just 1 shot everyone in the game with his r?

Cause he's the "Shard of the Monolith". The piece of a large stone. He isn't a mountain himself.

Left Hook LarryFeb 2, 20161 votes

He supposedly weighs tons and is the size of a mountain.

Also Naut is supposedly huge as well. Did you see the League of Legends cinematic? Naut was the most broken champ there.

It's impossible to balance champs based on lore and we shouldn't have to. Fiora's title is "grand duelist" but that shouldn't mean too much in game

chipndip1Feb 2, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Savage Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zw9clXw,comment-id=000200000000000000000003000100010001000100000000,timestamp=2016-02-02T00:51:49.450+0000)

He supposedly weighs tons and is the size of a mountain.

Also Naut is supposedly huge as well. Did you see the League of Legends cinematic? Naut was the most broken champ there.

It's impossible to balance champs based on lore and we shouldn't have to. Fiora's title is "grand duelist" but that shouldn't mean too much in game

Malphite isn't the size of a mountain. He's like J4's size. There was a cinematic where they were literally right next to each other.

So what's the point of Fio being "The Grand Duelist" if she can't duel? That's stupid.

Left Hook LarryFeb 4, 20161 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/bWawYfgE-champion-relative-height-and-weight

So what's the point of Fio being "The Grand Duelist" if she can't duel? That's stupid.

Lore should never effect how strong a champ is in game

Also she builds full fucking tank. How is she this amazing dueliest when she builds barely offensively

chipndip1Feb 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Savage Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zw9clXw,comment-id=00020000000000000000000300010001000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-04T21:54:51.273+0000)

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/bWawYfgE-champion-relative-height-and-weight

Lore should never effect how strong a champ is in game

Also she builds full fucking tank. How is she this amazing dueliest when she builds barely offensively

She doesn't build full tank. She builds like a heavy fighter.

UnderscorBunniesFeb 1, 20162 votes

Well, partially bevause Fiora is literally called "The Grand Duelist" and partially because it would be a unique top lane character design.

Renekton can lane bully early due to his lane sustain, hard CC, and potential mobility, along with his passive. Early game, people don't have too too many stats early, so this makes champions that have things like this strong early game champions. Riven has to forms of hard CC, and extermely high mobility, and massive base AD stats. However, unless Riven gets ahead of her lane opponent early, they'll generally outscale her, resulting in her falling off late game if she was unable to get ahead.

Fiora functions like Jax. She's a massive splitpush force, that you can't really send a singular adc against, and you can't send a tank to deal with her either, unless that tank happens to be a late game Nasus. Why not make her like Jax and have her do magic damage and physical damage you ask? Well, if Fiora did mixed damage, one of the two champions would become irrelevant as a result. Let's say after changing her damage type, Fiora was determined the be superior to Jax. Why would a team ever pick Jax again? Unless the Fiora was banned, Jax would become an ignored champion.

Riot wants to make unique champions that fill certain roles very well, but with decent amounts of coutnerplay. Fiora fits in that Criteria, and I really don't see why people have such a massive issue with her.

4th3t0sFeb 1, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nagoh Shan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zw9clXw,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-02-01T01:46:01.539+0000)

%maxHP true damage was the only way to make a fighter that's equally threatening to both types of enemies without being disproportionately strong vs one or the other.

The funny thing about this idea, it nullifies the roles as they exist in the meta. What, exactly, was wrong with carry-type fighters and assassins having to focus the squishy targets? I generally thought killing tanks was prioritized for ADC's.

Nagoh ShanFeb 1, 20165 votes

It doesn't nullify anything. It just expands the roles, and never was it the sole responsibility of ADCs to kill Tanks. As as someone who's generally loved playing tanky champs, and watching tanky champs succeed in competitive, everything has had the capacity to kill tanks with the exception of early/mid S5.

If tanks were only kill-able by ADC's they'd be much better laners, and almost impossible to play against.

You have juggernauts who kill anything, but need teams to enable their damage or they become useless Darius Garen Illaoi

You have sustained damage mages with the ability to wear down both tanky and squishy targets Cassiopeia Heimerdinger Ryze Vladimir

There are item-based fighters who's damage to survivability ratio increases at a higher rate than tanks Jax Kayle MasterYi

ADC's are not the only types of champions that can kill tanks, and this is intentional. Also the realization that tanks aren't nearly as tanky as believed in some points of the games history (Meaning: more things can kill tanks than originally expected), is why I think they're getting more damage as a modification to their own damage/survivability ratio.

HandheldBrandonFeb 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nagoh Shan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zw9clXw,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-02-01T01:46:01.539+0000)

Mainly because the goal was to ensure that Fiora is a threat, as a fighter, to both tanks and squishies. If it deals physical damage, then the damage has to be high enough to make it disproportionately strong against squishies.

Remember true damage is just 100% penetration that isn't effected by damage boosts.

%maxHP true damage was the only way to make a fighter that's equally threatening to both types of enemies without being disproportionately strong vs one or the other. Also she doesn't delete people until she's very far ahead, so she does have to play ring around the rosy in a fight to maximize damage.

It really does seem like people are annoyed because they have the wrong mindset, wanting to know what to pick to beat her, rather than picking a strong pick and learning what to do to beat her.

That would be true except her true damage scales with max health AND fioras own bonus AD.

It has triple scaling which is not okay. If it was just percent max health true damage at a low value (2-4% for example) it would be fine but the problem is its 3% PLUS 2.8-4.5 percent PLUS it scales per 100 bonus AD NOT TO MENTION IT ALSO HEALS HER AND GRANTS HER MOVESPEED. This doesn't factor in that the passive essentially has no cooldown only a positional factor but due to Fiora's Dash being on an insanely low cooldown and the aforementioned movespeed boost the positional difference doesn't hinder her in the slightest.

Nagoh ShanFeb 1, 20165 votes

First scaling with health and bonus AD is double scaling, not triple scaling, but that's a nitpick.

Second the 2.8-4.5% is how much it scales per 100AD. That mean it has a .028%-.045% bonus AD ratio. Each one isn't a separate scaling, which is probably why you thought it was triple scaling.

But this is a fun game, let's play it some more.

Gragas' Drunken rage has a .3AP ratio, nearly 10x higher than Fiora's Vital bonus AD ratio, and it scales from the enemies max health as well at 8%. Not to mention when he uses it he reduces the damage he takes by up to 18%. That's on a completely different layer than AR/MR so that interacts multiplicatively. Add his passive and it heals for 4% of his max health too. That hit's almost all your marks, %health damage, double scaling, heals him while also making him tankier, low cooldown, and he doesn't even have to worry about positioning.

If you take things in a vacuum anything can be made to look broken.

HandheldBrandonFeb 1, 20161 votes

Its triple scaling because it also scales with level.

First it has 3% base damage. Then it scales 2.8-4.5 percent based on level. Then it also scales per 100 bonus AD.

Nagoh ShanFeb 1, 20163 votes

The 2.8-4.5 is per 100 bonus AD

That's a single scaling.

Unless it's scale-ception and the scalar scaling scales for triple scaling, but it's really quadruple scaling because the scalar scales the passive and the scaling.

#mindblown

SpoofghoulFeb 1, 20161 votes

Actually you can delete people really fast

aa q aa e aa titanic aa q aa

thats like 2 seconds with the true damage procs titanic damage and titanic on hits you can deal an absurd amount of damage in a very short time period.

Nagoh ShanFeb 1, 20163 votes

Anything non-anecdotal has shown that Fiora doesn't have assassin level deletion unless she is very far ahead, or it is incredibly late game against quishies that did not build any defensive items.

doubleguacFeb 2, 20161 votes

Also she doesn't delete people until she's very far ahead, so she does have to play ring around the rosy in a fight to maximize damage.

I don't have a problem with her burst. I do find her sustained damage to be a bit too high while building extremely tanky.

If you just look at her kit, it doesn't seem like Riot intended for her to be built this way. Temporary invulnerability isn't given to bruisers. It's given to champions who are squishy and low range and actually need the damage mitigation to survive burst. And bruisers are rarely if ever as mobile as Fiora.

When champions who are designed as assassins/light fighters start building tank, it's usually a problem, and it's usually not fun to play against. Look at fizz--another mobile assassin with temporary invulnerability who started to be built like a bruiser. He had a similar playstyle to bruiser fiora. He had lots of sustained %HP damage, just like Fiora. He was incredibly hard to peel--just like tank fiora. He was extremely hard to actually kill. And he ended up getting nerfed, because all the above factors made him frustrating and difficult to play against, especially when he was ahead.

Nagoh ShanFeb 2, 20161 votes

Fiora isn't an assassin. That's your problem. If you compare her to assassins you're going to be wrong every time.

She's also not a bruiser, so the same applies there, no comparing them.

The "Light fighter" designation shows that she's similar to fighters in application (Yi, Jax, Xin, ect) but has less baked in damage and defense, and more conditional damage and defense.

doubleguacFeb 3, 20161 votes

I'm not trying to get super bogged down in semantics. All I'm saying is that, from my view, her kit seems to be designed around the idea that she will be fairly squishy in team fights. She has the ability to get in and out of a fight quickly. And she has a temporary invulnerability spell. Look at other temporary invulnerability/untargetability spells. Alpha Strike, troll pole, death mark, trynd ult, ekko ult... all of these are on melee champions who were designed with squishy builds in mind.

Ekko is a good comparison. He's a skirmishing fighter/assassin. He has conditional defense and high damage, but lacks the burst of a true assassin. He's mobile and slippery and has tools for surviving more punishment than you'd think. Fiora is a lot like Ekko. It was annoying as shit when tank Ekko was FotM. Fiora isn't building straight tank at the moment, but the effect is similar. She's hard to peel, hard to kill, and still does a lot of damage. I personally find it frustrating to play against, and I feel like she might be a bit too strong.

Nagoh ShanFeb 3, 20161 votes

You're still comparing her to a class of champions that the designers specifically said she doesn't belong to, because you think she should.

Until you're willing to get past that, there's really nothing that can be said.

blfUvZ8YbuFeb 1, 20165 votes

Fiora is untouchable.They never nerf her.They will nerf only items.We see.Because Riot loves female champs especially sexy champs.This determination is very true.

KynamiFeb 1, 201610 votes

I raise you a Sejuani. Sejuani Your argument has been countered.

blfUvZ8YbuFeb 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I raise you a Sejuani. Your argument has been countered.

How? Sejuani? Sexy? No.Also she has still %51 win rate.Formerly she had %58 win rate.%58 isn't normal.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 1, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akatsuki Deidara,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zw9clXw,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-02-01T03:43:18.517+0000)

How? Sejuani? Sexy? No.

Bro, you have any idea how powerful her calves and thighs must be from riding that boar? Sej is plenty sexy.