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Riot, could you kindly stop removing diversity from this game?

Saianna··73 votes·5,576 views

Please, stop forcing us to play this champion only with those items in only that lane. Please, stop reworking items changing their purposes.

Case #1 Removing items such as Force of Nature, Malady, Innervating Locket, Atmas, Heart of Gold and many (many many many) more. I understand they could have been over powered or only usefull on few champions, but removing them completely does not help with "increasing diversity" policy you boast everywhere you can.

Nerf them, change their stats a little, but keep them.

Case #2 Reworking items such as Black Cleaver, Magus, Zeke. Why not keep them both? In Black cleaver case it might be a little tricky, but that both items could have some uses for different purposes. Having same unique passive wouldn't allow to stack them. Reworking items doesn't increase diversity. It just shifts its focus on different part.

Case #3 Unique active/passive on skills. Almost every item has it. It doesn't help aswell. Let us have more room to build freely. But ofcourse make sure that stacking items isn't the only way to go. Maybe reduce damage/utility of each another same item.

Case #4 Champions different build paths are being removed. For example Ap Yi, Ap Xin, (AFTER REWORK)Ap Sion I know that Ap Yi was a problem, I really do understand this. But what harm has Xin or Sion did to you or playerbase? Why nerf their ratios? Let players wonder "Is enemy Sion Ap or AD?" <-- current SIon, not the old one There is no harm in that. Do not force us to build the same champion exactly the same doing exactly the same thing for next 100 games untill next patch. This doesn't help diversity. This doesn't increase "fun".

Case #5 This case is similar to case #4. Lots of AD champions have magic skills with AP ratios. But scallings are so bad, that even with 500 AP damage wouldn't be serious. Just increase the ratios of such skills. Even if just a little. Alow players to play their beloved champions hovewer they want without losing viability.

EDIT: Case #6 I forgot about this one: Summoner spells. Almost everyone picks Flash. Where's diversity? Make other summoner spells just as usefull. Someone said to me "that clarity is a noob-trap". Change that. Make it usefull. Make people pick & use other summoner spells.

And last thing

Case #7 Riot has really hard time focuing on both casual & pro players. People start to dislike LCS as it takes priority. Champion balancing is dictated by LCS. We see that off-LCS meta champions that have made success in LCS were nerfed the second day. We (or at least me) dislike this favouritism.

What kind of diversity is that? Watching similar matches just because only handful of champions are viable?

This is a warning to you, Riot. Right now your profit increases. But sooner than later it'll start to decline. You'll be forced to take unpleasant measures. Forcing new pro-stage events. Slowing expansion of champion rooster. New RP that might make people unhappy or maybe reducing staff.. You've built huge empire with great communication with your playerbase. With each year passng this communication grew thiner.

Once you forget about us, so we will move to other games and forget about you.

133 Comments

Paress18 votes

Here are the Alpha items http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_items

And the Removed items http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Removed_items

Yeah, it's this moment you think "holy fuck, how many have disappeared"

Saianna5 votes

Yea, I know :) Just decided to pick only few of my favourites :P

Paress8 votes

{quoted}

Yea, I know :) Just decided to pick only few of my favourites :P

You could have also said Executioner's Calling. For real, nobody was buying it, but if Riot buffed it, it would have been, one of the very few counter to sustaining tank and even APs with the incoming Wota.

kile1473 votes

They don't really like grevious wounds though. I'm surprised item 3165 still has it to be honest. Their issue is that champs who are designed to heal a lot Swain , Vladimir , DrMundo , Aatrox have to be balanced with that in mind, and basically either suck as champions or are incredibly OP without countering with grievous wounds.

YOU BEEN WARNED3 votes

Sword of the Divine bro, it was the shit and it was removed for no reason whatsoever. :[

TwitchInMyPants11 votes

Innervating locket was the most broken item in the game, it's the one item that definitely needed to be removed since it basically ensured if you had a spell to spam you were basically invincible. The rest were problematic to an extent tho really more items means more build customization for specific scenarios which is a good thing even if they aren't the best items for every situation.

Also on the topic of nerfs for LCS, while this is true I've seen just as many nerfs over advantages in Solo Q. Master Yi and Darius are the most glaring examples in my mind since they're incredibly easy to shutdown but they punish your mistakes very hard. Only recently have they been buffed to keep up with the competition a bit and they're still hurting in a meta where having tons of dashes and shields on top of ranged cc and strong damage is ok. Besides that I think the OP is a good post, tho frankly we've been making posts like this for years. I'm convinced Riot has stopped caring about diversity and rather would just shake the meta into a new state to make it more interesting for a new set of players, despite how toxic of an experience that is to a longtime player who has champion loyalty.

Saianna4 votes

+1 for a nice post you've made

Well i don't really agree on locket part, but all depends on our own memories of those times :P I for example was too busy playing Evelynn with her sweet 1 minute stealth hahaha

hahahaha...

...ah

Now i'm gonna cry...

TehNACHO9 votes

To the AP Xin question: I don't know if you're talking about a past rework or not, but the current nerf on the PBE right now is to counterbalance the new Sated Devourer, which let's be honest, is going to throw Xin over the edge.

Also, to be perfectly fair, you want to give your players at least some telegraph. AP Xin is relatively fine in this example since a large chunk of his damage is still Physical (despite Nashor's and his E, the large brunt of his damage is from his high base damage, and AP xin rarely builds enough magic pen to tank bust by late game), but if you have a champion that can do either forms of damage in high amounts, it gives way too much wiggle room to ignore defenses by reading what the enemy buys early and switching over before you make any heavy investments. It throws everyone for a loop when an AD Fighter like release Rek'Sai is suddenly nuking everyone with long range Magic Damage torpedoes.

Saianna8 votes

I can promise you that sated devourer will be nerfed sooer or later. Most likely 3-4 patches after introduction to live servers. And when that happens Riot will not turn back all champions who were nerfed.

Ap xin deals mixed damage, but there are alot more champions who do the same thing while still building their normal items. So saying it's bad for Xin but good for any other champion is unfair.

I personally don't play Xin alot. And even if I do, I just go AD/Tank. But some players enjoy playing him AP. Why should their fun be reduced for something that might not make him all that much stronger?

Then there's this thing: Riot reduced Xins Ap ratios, not his base damage. Which means this nerf hits onl those who stack AP. How much AP AD xin will get? I think about 80 is a max (triforce + WoTA from allied champion)

With Rek sai it's similar. If you build AD, then her "torpedoes" are very weak. Build AP and your AD forum is useless damage-wise.

EDIT: I hate my wirelss keyboard. It loves to eat random letters while I type..

TehNACHO3 votes

Okay, before we continue, since we both understand at least that AP Xin Zhao relies on Devourer, I want to point out something funny about the Xin Zhao "nerfs" with the introduction of Sated Devourer if I understand how it works correctly.

Old: Xin will heal [50 (+ 70% AP)] every 3 hits Over the course of 6 auto attacks, his W will stack twice, and he will have healed for [100 (+ 140% AP)]

New: Xin will heal [50 (+ 50% AP)] every 3 hits Over the course of 6 auto attacks, his W will stack 3 times, and he will have healed for [150 (+ 150% AP)]

Now I say 6 auto attacks in this example, but make no mistake, I only did that so we get nice round numbers. What this really means is, with the Sated Devourer, Xin will on average heal for more than before. Even if they dumpster Sated Devourer's base stats, the fact remains that Xin will be buffed by the item regardless. This is what I mean about Sated Devourer throwing him over the edge, and why most nerfs targeted towards Sated Devourer wouldn't have the balancing effect on Xin Zhao he would need if the passive remains the same.

AP Xin's magic damage is honestly much smaller than expected so meh. To say he does mixed is like saying Akali's Physical Damage is relevant enough to warrant any Armor Pen.

With Rek sai it's similar. If you build AD, then her "torpedoes" are very weak. Build AP and your AD forum is useless damage-wise.

No, this is literally the problem I was trying to point out.

Rek'Sai telegraphs a powerful AD Fighter. If you built her AP then, everyone who armored up to deal with her as an AD Fighter get the short end of the stick for the entirety of the midgame because her Physical damage is irrelevant, making their armor a money sink for her. This is what you want to avoid, especially in a competitive game.

Saianna4 votes

Everything depends on "if Xin buys devourer". By nerfing his healing rate Riot is forcing players to get sated devourer. Ofc that would be his base item anyway, but any kind of forcing us is a bad way to promote diversity.

About Rek'Sai. I'm not sure how good AP jungle Rek is, but something tells me that her clearspeed is by far lower. Ap means she's more of spambot with less defenses than her AD counterpart.

And how long can jungle Rek say not show to their enemies? She has to gank once or twice. And then scoreboards & build will be updated. She cannot just afk farm trough whole game preparing her AP build for late-game in hopes that Enemy will fail to build against her. This is huge risk as her poke-spam starts to be less threatening with every minute closing to games finale.

BluePolarizer5 votes

In a competitive game you have to actually look at the enemy team to see what they're doing.

In DOTA, there's some heroes that can be built either support, semicarry, or full carry. Does DOTA nerf them to only fit one role, saying that "it'll be too confusing for players to check whether they are actually the carry or not"? No lol, that's up to the players to look at enemy items. I do not think that's such an unreasonable burden.

Like, if you were going against a Smite/Ignite Shaco, are you gonna keep playing super aggressive and lvl. 3 tower diving as Riven? Sure if you like feeding and having a 10-0 Shaco against you in 15 minutes, but not if you want to win.

Dedrius9 votes

You know the game lacks champion diversity when LCS play has the same champs every time:

Top: Gnar, Rumble, Hec Jungle: Rek, Grag ADC: Kalista, Sivir Mid: Viktor, Azir Support: Bard, Alistar

Yes I understand there is some variation, but these champions are the strongest in their roles and are picked a majority of games unless banned. This makes the game pretty boring to watch when the same comps are picked every game. Solo Queue has a bit more variety but that is the nature of Solo Queue not because of anything Riot has done to add diversity.

Sona Ping3 votes

Also item 3185 item 3187 item 3159 look like they are being phased out. I've bought Light Bringer in particular a lot in my games and I don't want it to go.

Rueian3 votes

Locket was a mistake and everyone who played during that time knows it. Udyr was the only one who really got to use it to its full potential but if it was still out now you better believe he would still be dominating.

Saianna2 votes

I've seen Alistar and Karthus using it too. But if Riot were to change it just a little, then item wouldn't be that bad.

I've started playing just before Morde relase ;)

Rueian3 votes

Let me list champions who would go crazy for locket other than alistar, udyr, karthus, amumu

Sona, Skarner, Yorick, Hecarim, nautilus, Trundle, Soraka, hell even Vlad and morde would like it.

Saianna2 votes

In its unchanged form yes, but i remember how one of Rioters said that they remove locket untill they find a solution for it being viable for bigger champion pool.

I don't think it'd be too hard to reintroduce locket with slightly changed passive/active that could match current LoL

Rueian2 votes

at this point probably wont happen

Saianna2 votes

That's the point of this thread. I'm kind of salty that lots of things i loved alot in LoL were either removed or reworked.

I still hope Riot will fix their attitude of spoiled kid

Rueian3 votes

Game balance is far more important. I don't see how riot is being a spoiled kid.

Saianna2 votes

by changing stuff that doesn't require changing, leaving stuff that requires attention like broccoli on plate.

Obviously lying from time to time. "I didn't break that glass mom, i swear! It was cat" while still throwing stones at shattered window frame.

Rueian3 votes

Actually alot of the changes they have made has been for the better, riot has not been the spoiled child. More so the complaining masses who think they know game design better than those who's job it is, are the ones who are spoiled.

If you think you know game design better, get a job doing it

Saianna3 votes

That is your personal opinion. I feel different.

your last line is as cheap as it can get. Not everyone is meant to be president, politician or game designer, yet for some reason those people not cut for their jobs are working there. And lots of ...unaware... people are actually happy with it.

Not saying that game designers are BAD, No! But maybe they are forced to follow dumb decisions of their bosses. Either way from my point of view you do not see what this game could become with smart decision making. You just see effects of what we have right now.

Anyways, i'm not in the mood in dragging this discussion of replying to "i-know-better-than-you" person. And i know i behave the same way, but that's how people are. Biased and self-centric.

So good bye, hope you'll find happiness on neverending field of internet wars!

Rhlax3 votes

You've built huge empire with great communication with your playerbase. With each year passng this communication grew thiner.

Having followed Riot since 2011, Rito 's communication has always been industries' top. Diversity is also improving, in my opinion.

Saianna3 votes

I've started playing LoL bit earlier than you and i remember open discussions in forum with game devs & mods.

Now.. How often our pleas are heard? How often do you see red text in Boards? I understand they cannot reply to every post or even thread, but some of them are well made, stating important issues that should be adressed and all we get is void of a reply from them.

The communication really does grow thinner. As a defense argment I can just say that almost every game that grew through years has similar problems.

Rhlax3 votes

When you try to please everyone, you please no one. Riot won't make everyone happy but I do feel that they have done a good job to make me interested. Game development isn't easy. I feel the game is becoming more and more fun to play, does that count as hearing our pleas?

Saianna2 votes

It's good that you feel that way, but i personally feel different on that matter.

They way i liked to play has been removed from the game. So-called diversity consists of 1 and only way of playing a champion and any steps from that road make you look like a troll/newbie.

I do not enjoy this.

Well w/e At least you guys are happy :)

Rhlax2 votes

Play aram or crystal scar. A lot of builds work there.

Saianna2 votes

As of now i have about 2,7k games in ARAM. I play only Aram.

I got really, really tired of SR. It's so slow.. Mob farming for 20 minutes. Last hitting. Brrrrr!

And i despise ranked with all of my black heart.

Rhlax1 votes

I see we have a lot of similarities. Despite SR being popular, I do not like it as well.

2.7k is a lot of games, I wonder if someone would still be able enjoy the game after playing that much?

Saianna2 votes

{quoted}

2.7k is a lot of games, I wonder if someone would still be able enjoy the game after playing that much?

Good question... Which i'm unable to give answer to.. I guess it's still kind of fun?

After all I don't see copy-paste team comps every game..

Silents4292 votes

Most of this is nostalgia for older items, the items serve no purpose in comparison to more effective items that replace them.

Saianna2 votes

Yes, that's right, but if they wouldn't be effective then why removing them or reworking? What harm would they do?

Silents4294 votes

Remove clutter? Remove noob traps?

I am not saying they couldn't rework them into something new, but items need to have a purpose or they are just sitting in the shadow of an item that works better in every way.

Majority of the items you listed literally serve no purpose anymore even if they got some tweaks.

Not to mention if we got to many tank items for example, it'd be easier to stock up on HP and armor combination items, causing inbalance (Same situation for any of the roles)

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

Meanwhile near every carry just builds an infinity edge, phantom dancer, and berserker's greases and wins. Most items aren't effective enough to compete, or have niche abilities; however riot hasn't given any of them buffs to be useful, nor nerfs to the popular items to make more diverse builds desirable either. It's a 2-way street sure, but riot has the majority of control and they refuse to do so; or are silent about doing such things behind the scenes. Both points are unfavorable regardless.

Silents4292 votes

Throwing more items at the ADC's isn't going to fix anything, this is a completely different problem in itself.

And is not the same as trying to revive old items to fit an uncommon niche pick.

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

You're missing the point, I'm saying they aren't trying to fix what they already have; and that most of us are aggravated they're removing options instead of balancing them.

N1KataWorldwide2 votes

What about leviathan, and sword of the occult, and mejais? I used to love to buy all 3 of them. Riot ur talking about diversity, but what you really do is remove diversity with every single feature u add, every item you rework. The game becomes incredibly complicated, there where times when u struggled to give any recommended items for a Champion, Cause there where frekin 100 ways to play it. And why does every new champ now have to have 17 skills? It just makes them incredibly difficult for new players to master. It was fine when kata only had 3 active skills and a w to change ur playstyle. You have given up on players who just want to play the game, not become World Champion. And why cant i play yi ap now? When he was so incredibly strong, just nerf him to the point when he isnt incredibly strong anymore. What if u only have one single runepage? Now you need like 20 to seriously be able to play every champion in a way thats not called feeding. Bring the old lol back, there werent so many new players joining cause ur game was new, but because your game was Great!!summoner 3 summoner 14

2yordles1cupcake1 votes

Jax The last diverse champ?

blueberrypancake6 votes

The ruined Hextech Gunblade on him

but you were so close

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

How did they ruin it on him?

I thought the main reason it wasn't purchased was just that Blade of the Ruined King was a better option.

blueberrypancake1 votes

Reduced base AA range by 25 (Used to be 575) and Base AD by 4 (Used to be 54)

Also he could partially match the ADC trifecta (Ez,Corki, and Graves) in laning phase (Espcially Graves) and mid game. Similar to the 3, he falls off late.

EndlessSorcerer3 votes

We are talking about Jax right? Because I don't think he ever had 575 range, fell off late game, typically laned against ADCs, and his base AD is 62 IIRC.

Do you reply to the wrong post?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Another number to add; Stop forcing specific spells to use specific items (machete & smite).

Great post, cannot upvote enough!

Saianna2 votes

But, thank you!

Carniverous1 votes

There is a good reason they killed AP Sion. All of Sion was unhealthy. If you went Tanky, you'd have pretty bad damage, but okay cooldown. Then his AD ability dose nothing for you, and you can't use his ult to heal. So to fix that, you build AD, and your build would look like this. item 3074 item 3031 item 3046 item 3046 item 3072 item 3047 But you would have 3.2k HP, and 130% lifesteal, plus 50% attack speed for 20 seconds, and the very cool ally heal. But two of your abilities are still useless.... Your sheild blocks 300 dmg, and thats it. Your stun, stuns things, and thats it.

If you went AP Sion, then you would have two super powerful nukes. And a very unhealthy play pattern. Presheild > Stun target > Burst sheild target > Walk away. And that was it, the whooole lane phase, the whooole game. Because it was an automatic stun click like Taric, it became very unhealthy in top lane, or mid. It wasn't very healthy for team fights. Sure, huge damage and DFG nukes. But your AD attacks were useless, and your ult lifesteal/ally heal was useless. People had fun, because they were winning. AP Sion wasn't any good. He wasn't fun to fight. He was just unfair in a lot of ways.

No matter what you built on Sion, two abilities were useless.

I sympathize though. They recently got rid of Malphites only AD scaling. And made this huge rock monster a mage. item 3074 Malphite R.I.P

Saianna2 votes

I meant current Sion. Not the old one :)

Current Sions AP ratios/overall damage/CD from spells has been nerfed to a point where even with super high AP (like 700) he deals little to no damage.

Carniverous2 votes

My baaad.

I think they should come up with a way to make it viable... :/

Least mY AD Malz, AP Varus, AP Lucien still work...

Saianna1 votes

I could never make AP varus to work.. Somehow i don't feel that "oomph" feeling of hitting hard with him unlike like building him with tear + all armor penetration in the world.

Lately tried AP Lucian quite fun, but his star aoe is kind of annoying, damage is OK.. But animation/shape of this star... kinda pissing me off.

AD Malz never tried.. Shame

And

AP Miss Fortune.. kind of unviable. Stack AP to deal AD damage. Imo Riot has to rethink her design.. She's too wicked/twisted.

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