Indepth explanation why PBE Mage update looks weak for mages

Saianna·Apr 7, 2016·94 votes·4,337 views

Rioters don't play mages.

Edit: Gotta learn how to play Lee now, cause I'm damn sure Riot will never nerf him :/

87 Comments

ValexforApr 7, 201625 votes

Fuck! It's more deep than I thought... why no tl;dr?

SaiannaApr 7, 201657 votes

Here's your tl;dr

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEdv1EbS2Ss1NvrUc/giphy.gif "Mage update in progress"

ValexforApr 7, 20164 votes

And here another upvote (on this answer)! =D

SaiannaApr 7, 201635 votes

One more cause I can!

http://i.imgur.com/XVGEDMp.jpg[/img]

Aw damn, in 4th window there should be "Rito" with nice handmade lamborghini-red arrow, but i ran out of red ink (though of making green one, but green arrow is so passe :< I'll try to make it alot more Flash'y next time! )

ValexforApr 7, 20162 votes

Well, still acceptable even with no red arrow I guess, you got a pass! >>

McKeifusApr 7, 20168 votes

Patch Notes v6.10 Annie Azir Cassiopeia Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Karthus Lissandra Lux Malzahar Orianna Ryze Swain Syndra Veigar Velkoz Viktor Vladimir Ziggs Zilean Zyra

Accidentally deleted all files for the above listed champions. Backups, too. Whoops! Sorry. Learn to play, noobs.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/8bTmYiGgMGias/200_s.gif

SaiannaApr 7, 201610 votes

Nope, Riot wants Zyra, Annie, Zilean to be supports, so they'll find backups pretty fast.

About others? Well.. I always believed you should build Swain AD.

TurquoiseYoshiApr 7, 20164 votes

Huni was right

warpenguin555Apr 7, 201614 votes

Yeah they hate mages

AstôlfoApr 7, 20165 votes

Except Lee is awful, sooo...

SaiannaApr 7, 201615 votes

Still better than mages after this update :|

Even AP MID Lee > any generic midlane mage

AstôlfoApr 7, 20163 votes

That's like saying filth is better than sewer waste.

SaiannaApr 7, 201614 votes

Blame Rito for crappy choices.

Bears Dont CareApr 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Except Lee is awful, sooo...

It's funny when people say things like this...

AstôlfoApr 8, 20162 votes

It's also funny when people like you think otherwise.

Bears Dont CareApr 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's also funny when people like you think otherwise.

LEE SIN IS BAD!

Lee Sin is not bad.

Tell me which sounds retarded...I'll wait.

AstôlfoApr 9, 20162 votes

The second, obviously.

Bears Dont CareApr 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The second, obviously.

I suppose that is as logical as stating Warwick is a good character.

AstôlfoApr 9, 20161 votes

It's as logical as your idiotic QQ fantasies.

Bears Dont CareApr 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's as logical as your idiotic QQ fantasies.

Not really, because your statement is fueled on emotions that stem from anger towards those who disagree with you. My statement stems from the fact that Lee Sin has never been bad and never will be due to the flexibility and strength of his kit.

Warwick is a bad champ. Lee Sin is not.

There have rarely been times where LEe Sin was legitimately a bad champion, every other time, there were simply better choices.

Essentially it came down to this...Lee Sin is a standard chef's knife. Sure...you could chop up the beef with said chef knife...or you can use a butcher's knife to get through the bone more effectively. the chef's knife can still be used...its still good, but that butcher's knife is more effective.

AstôlfoApr 10, 20161 votes

He's okayish in early game. He's absolute trash after that. He's like the kind of champ Pantheon is. Relies on snowballing hard in early because they're fucking terrible in anything past that. Which is why, he doesn't even have 50% winrate in Plat+. Not to mention it's easy to dodge his Q.

Bears Dont CareApr 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He's okayish in early game. He's absolute trash after that. He's like the kind of champ Pantheon is.

No...no he isn't even close to Pantheon at all.

Lee SIn deals more damage than Pantheon. All of Lee SIn's damaging abilities scale of AD. Pantheon has 2 scaling off AP. Lee Sin also has an execute on his Q, contributing even more damage due to % health missing on the target.
Lee Sin has more CC than Pantheon. Pantheon has 1 single target stun that is also a gap closer. Lee Sin has an AOE slow, and an AOE knockup / single target stun/knockback. Yes his ultimate is not a standard displacer, it has a stun effect both before and after the kick which is why you cannot flash it, but you can flash Alistar's headbutt.

Relies on snowballing hard in early because they're fucking terrible in anything past that.

False. Lee Sin has stronger team utility. He is also a much stronger initiator than Pantheon. Pantheon has stronger map presence than Lee SIn, but Lee Sin makes up for it by having much more mobility.

Which is why, he doesn't even have 50% winrate in Plat+.

Winrate? Really? We're using winrate as a measure of champion success? I guess Pantheon is a significantly better champion than Lee SIn because his winrate is currently 51.99 while Lee Sin is 46.16 Right?

Wait. Pantheon has a pick rate of 3.19% Lee SIn has a pickrate of 21.4% Average jungler pickrate is 4.6%

So Lee Sin is 4 to 5 times more popular than Pantheon, than the jungle roster period. Lee Sin is absolute trash...right...its why his pick rate is 4x higher than the rest of the jungle roster. He is in the top 5 for most played champions.

You don't find the next Jungler til Gragas, who is #14.

But Lee Sin is trash, that's why they play him much more often than other Junglers. At Plat +, where everyone plays for "Fun". Right?

Not to mention it's easy to dodge his Q.

It's easy to dodge Morgana Q. Why?

Her Q has a range of 1175. The speed is 1200. It takes about .97 seconds to cross the distance.

Lee Sin Q? 1100 distance. speed of 1750.

It takes about .66 seconds to cross the distance.

Super easy to dodge.

AstôlfoApr 10, 20161 votes

Your logic is still as terrible as ever. People play him a lot because they all think they can be that flashy LCS insec player or whatever else they see in pro play, except they can't. Partially because of the fact Lee Sin is just shit. Hence, low winrate.

Your logic is still bad. It's easy to dodge both.

SeargentAnusApr 7, 20164 votes

They better not gut Velkoz item 3070

NullDragonApr 7, 20161 votes

Tear got the mana regeneration removed, but added 25% mana refunded on spell use. Effectively this means that 25% increased mana regeneration got buffed to 33% more mana regeneration and 33% more flat mana. Significant buff, IMO.

SaiannaApr 7, 20167 votes

25% mana refun on spell means, that you have 125% of your mana pool with NO mana regen from tear in any shape or form.

Or is ~~math~~ brain lying to me?

NullDragonApr 8, 20163 votes

25% mana refunded = 75% mana costs. 1 / 0.75 = 1.33 more mana.

It works like CDR, in that 50% mana refund = twice as much mana and mana regen(or spells cast, in the case of CDR). Like in urf, 80% CDR = 5 times as many spells cast. So yes, this is actually a straight up buff to Tear's mana regen, although mana regen was removed from most everything else.

SaiannaApr 8, 20161 votes

in that 50% mana refund = twice as much mana and mana regen

I think I see what you are trying to do but.. Something tells me it doesn't work that way..

And still there will be no more mana regen. tear will have only its 25% spell price reduction.

NullDragonApr 7, 20163 votes

Remove mana regeneration: aw, rip poke.

Add a ton more flat mana, 15% mana spent gained as health passive, 15% premitigation damage gained as health on healing/shielding ally passive, flash on a 30 second cooldown passive, Zhonya's far cheaper, 25% all mana costs passive that adds to Archangel's which is actually an effective buff to Tear of the Goddess, chalice of harmony can now provide +100% health regen...

Did I mention an item with a 30 second CD flash? That ALSO gives 80 AP and 10% CDR and AP scaling damage?

SaiannaApr 7, 201627 votes

Did I mention an item with a 30 second CD flash? That ALSO gives 80 AP and 10% CDR and AP scaling damage?

Yep you did mention it :)

I'll give you my prediction: After 2 patches item will be nerfed. It's active CD 30 -> 90

Oh and yea, nothing beats forcing every immobile champion to get it. Riot hasn't learned shit from Cinderhulk (for tanks), Devourer (for AS) or Ludens (for APs).

This go so far as some (currently celebrating) retards will call next update as "hextech mobile meta" while crying.

15% premitigation damage gained as health

I believe 15% of dmg is turned into your mana. And the whole point of playing SQUISHY mage is not to get hit.

'Oh look! Zeds combo gave me 150 mana to use! Wee ama... Oh i'm dead"

NullDragonApr 7, 20164 votes

Catalyst: 15% of damage taken converted into mana, 15% of mana spent turned into health. This would, yes, be a powerful sustain item vs. Zed's poke. A quick combo from a mage could refund 45 or so health, on top of the health the item already gives you.

Also wait, so your prediction of 'mages are worthless' includes an active that you disregard completely because you're sure it'll be nerfed? This is regardless all a in progress test, and WILL be changed before it's released in a few months, but you can't ignore it completely when evaluating the changes.

Zhonyas is also 3000 gold instead of 3500 gold. Better/easier buildpath when behind too, IMO, since NLR was swapped it with Fiendish Codex. And CDR itemization is easier to come around this pass as well.

SaiannaApr 7, 201612 votes

A quick combo from a mage could refund 45 or so health

I'll be totally honest there.. But 45 health back is.. nonexistent compared to Zeds shurikens in your cute mage face.

And on top of that to get both mana from dmg AND HP from spells you have to pay alot.

Also wait, so your prediction of ~~'mages are worthless'~~ will be worthless

Imo this item IS FUN, I am saying it now. It really could help immobile mages to live to see another day. But in reality, you'll see this item on mages who already have mobility. Or initiators who wanna position themselves even better (Amumu/Fiddle/Lissandra/Diana). And either Riot will seriously gut them to the pulp, or this item will be nerfed.

I bet you'll see LB with flash and hextech thingy. And you'll have to cover 7 places for where she might be in 1 second. GL chasing this bullshit down. Or maybe Ekko with his own mobility where he first slow you to snail-speed, then hextech-flashes at you for huge bonus damage from fireballs.

Limitless posibilities of item that will be forced onto every champion with at least 1 AP scalling (yes, even GP will buy it)

Zhonyas is also 3000 gold instead of 3500 gold. Better/easier buildpath when behind too, IMO, since NLR was swapped it with Fiendish Codex. And CDR itemization is easier to come around this pass as well.

Cost decrease = cool Better build path = eeeh hardly. You still don't have any mana/mana regen to work with. So building it ASAp will run you dry, just as before. On top of that unlike hexdrinker for ADs mages still will be very vournerable to AD. CDR = on Zhyona? pointless (UNLESS!!! It's active now scales with normal CDR, then why not)

#30s longer active is not worth 500 gold (especially when it also loses 40..? ap cause reasons)

What Zhyona needs more than some crappy CDR is it's old, 90s active.

NullDragonApr 7, 20162 votes

Catalyst is more of a sustain item, true. Extra HP and HP heal from mana costs still are useful, though.

Yes, hextech rocket belt is an experimental item, and might not even make it to live. Annie is a particular case of it being too strong, apparently. To be honest though, Leblanc and Ekko are already BS to catch up to, and this item won't really make it any different.

As for no mana/mana regen, one of the points of the upgrade is to completely kill mana regeneration as a stat completely for anyone except supports. I DO expect base flat mana or mana regeneration changes eventually, same as when mana pots were removed. So ideally, the meta is moving in a direction where you're not expected to burn all your mana constantly and restore it with mana regen.

SaiannaApr 7, 20168 votes

As for no mana/mana regen, one of the points of the upgrade is to completely kill mana regeneration as a stat completely for anyone except supports.

I have to say: Either Rioters are really detached from the game, or they truly believe that mana pool = mages, mana regen = supports.

I mean.. Every mid mage i have seen had at very least 1 mana regen item which was "just in case".

Does Riot relly believe, thet mages should use their spells rarely, only in certain situations? If that's how they believe mages will work from now on, then this will summ up mages playtime in 1 game:

50% AAing 5% "dancing with Zed" to dodge his spammable, no-mana shurikens 10% using spells 15% running back to fountain cause you'll be dry after 2 fucking rotations (or even fucking less) 20% being dead cause new Zhyona, AD itemization > AP, ADCs > Mages, Assassins > Mages, Tanks > Mages, Minions > Mages

IronwallJacksonApr 7, 20161 votes

I doubt that they think anything of the sort. Odds are, they're doing this specifically to curtail spell spam and to avoid that end game scenario where everyone might as well be manaless. Not only that, but they're doing a pass over not only the big 7 or so mages, but they're also touching up others in smaller ways. I'm sure that nixing mana regen won't be as big a deal as it seems right now.

SaiannaApr 7, 20165 votes

I got used to infinite mana on low-damage spells

Now "infinite mana" is supposed to go..

What about spells? cause from what I see Riot is also reducing AP on items..

It's like forcing every mage to be semi-support for ADCs

Right now, when AP itemization is strong~~ I have hard time killing anyone as a mage with whole rotation of spells..

IronwallJacksonApr 7, 20163 votes

That's why I mentioned the pass on other mages. Between the item changes and the AP ratio alterations they're likely to do, the total amount of AP being lost will likely be shored up somehow. Don't stress.

ForgiveColourApr 7, 20161 votes

"Riot hate mages! Riot let us have the most cancerous items for the past few years and now they are trying to balance it. How dare they do that!"

SaiannaApr 7, 201616 votes

Riot let us have the most cancerous items for the past few years and now they are trying to balance it.

Riot is balancing Devourer?!?!?!!?!?!?1111111oneone

AninLegions777Apr 7, 20163 votes

They've tried like 4 times. It just can't be balanced. It's just like Feral Flare.

SaiannaApr 7, 201611 votes

you know it I know it playerbase knows it

Rito doesn't. Sometimes I'm surprised they know how to breathe..

Smug YuiApr 8, 20162 votes

Hey you know how you can tell Riot they fucked up. Not by telling them that they fucked up. But by giving semi-accurate calculations how if this happens it would be bad for the mages. Remember juggernauts, people spammed riot that they will be weak, riot buffed and then everyone wanted them nerfed. Also if you have read the state of the season ( http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/state-season-coming-mid-season ) Riot blatantly admitted that there were balancing issues. You are just acting like a troll (which you probably are) who only writes this stuff for upvotes and I know I will be downvoted but hay at least I don't just say what everyone wants to here without saying the reason why we say it.

SaiannaApr 8, 20163 votes

Remember juggernauts, people spammed riot that they will be weak, riot buffed and then everyone wanted them nerfed.

What if I told you, Riot buffed them on their own accord, then some smartass decided jugg buffs were caused by players demands? Cause I sure as hell doubt Riot suddenly listened to its playerbase. Second thing, it was still in PBE. And Riot decided to scrap additional testing after buffs, which is stupid.

Riot blatantly admitted that there were balancing issues.

Yet they try their best to NOT fix the main issues. Instead they try to work around the problem, just slightly touching things they should force-fix.

Examples?

Devourer 1.0 and Warwick Devourer 2.0 and Kayle, Shyvana nerfs (and most likely few other champs I don't rememebr right now Cinderhulk and Sion, sejuani and Toplaners Guinsoo and Yi, Kog'maw, Kayle Tytanic Hydra and Fiora, Yi and almost any other melee

What Riot does? Instead fixing an issue [ITEM OVERPOWERED] they try to nerf champions who use it. It doesn't work, they are pressed by the wall and go with [NERF OVERPOWERED ITEM].

Did they fix issue? Yes Did they broke some champions limbs in the process? Yes Did they re-buffed falsely nerfed champions? No.

It's just item-champion relation examples.

There are also retarded buffs or nerfs.

You are just acting like a troll (which you probably are)

What if I told you I am nothing more than a concerned player. I'm terrible with collecting data, making math etc to show my points. I used to make long threads, giving my advices, ideas, concerns etc. Noone gave a flying fuck about those threads. So I became sarcastic. That way, even when I don't show my arguments about the matter in main-thread, you can always check my posts below and see my point on this matter. Does that make me a troll?

Last thing: I am trully, genuinely, butthurt with Riots decision of deleting spellvamp.

For me spellvamp rework was 40% of whole mage update. Then I learned 2~ mage items receive nerfs while 3rd is changed to support, 4th is deleted and whole mana regen is being scrapped away from midlaners.

Ofc I'll be salty as all the fucking sea in the world.

Smug YuiApr 8, 20161 votes

I won't argue with the other stuff. Feels pointless at the moment

What if I told you I am nothing more than a concerned player. I'm terrible with collecting data, making math etc to show my points. I used to make long threads, giving my advices, ideas, concerns etc. Noone gave a flying fuck about those threads. So I became sarcastic. That way, even when I don't show my arguments about the matter in main-thread, you can always check my posts below and see my point on this matter. Does that make me a troll?

Last thing: I am trully, genuinely, butthurt with Riots decision of deleting spellvamp.

For me spellvamp rework was 40% of whole mage update. Then I learned 2~ mage items receive nerfs while 3rd is changed to support, 4th is deleted and whole mana regen is being scrapped away from midlaners.

Ofc I'll be salty as all the fucking sea in the world.

But I have express my opinion of this quote.

You said that you made this 'long threads', to which 'Noone gave a flying fuck'. But you stopped making them. In a world of free speech everyone has the right to express their own opinion and in a world of free speech those who don't stop talking and continue to talk on and on about their views are the ones who get the most loyal following. Best example from real life Bernie Sanders (you may be against him, but still hear me out). The things he is talking about for his presidential campaign, he has been talking about them since the 80s and everyone that wants him to win are constantly talking about him around the world and the main reason why is because he didn't give up talking about his view points. Norway is huge example of why the suff he is talking about might work. Everyone has huge wages, huge taxes, and free healthcare and education.

What about those who give up or, heck, didn't even try from the beginning. Those guys mostly spew stuff that the populas wants to hear and just by repeating it he over and over again without showing way his way of thinking is the one people should follow. An example being Donald Trump. He says America should build a wall on its border with Mexico and the main reason why he says it will be easy for a thousands of kilometers long wall would be easy to build is because he is a builder (E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIA_-tf9_qk) Also here is a link of what experts say https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-on-the-us-mexico-border-building-a-wall-is-easy/2015/07/16/9a619668-2b0c-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html

I am sorry I brought politics into this discussion but I wanted to bring up the fact that you gave up showing why you think this and that. I know this probably won't encourage you to start doing it again. But hey this is free speech, just because you say, doesn't mean people should read it.

Also sorry for calling you a troll. I know it made me sound as a hypocrite.

Edit: You know reading that first sentence of my reply and saying 'Feels pointless at the moment', sounds really stupid.

Smug YuiApr 8, 20161 votes

Here is a public apology I made for my mistake. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/V0cBAVYE-a-public-maybe-an-online-one-apology-to-saianna

Edit: P.S. The mistake was calling you a troll.

Smug YuiApr 8, 20161 votes

Also to add. With this winrate which Lee Sin do you honestly believe he will be nerfed. Yes he is played a lot, but as we can see this doesn't help at all.

This reminds that I heard Riot wanted to buff Vladimir, because he had a 44% winrate, but there was a bug in the update, which lead him having the same stats as before, but people started playing him and his winrate just went up. So the best way to get information is if more people play someone.

Vistha KaiApr 8, 20162 votes

Hey you know how you can tell Riot they fucked up. Not by telling them that they fucked up. But by giving semi-accurate calculations how if this happens it would be bad for the mages.

They do not fucking understand the concept of thought-through feedback or even acknowledge its existence. If you aren't a Rioter you are going to be immediatelly ignored and even, if for some reason you will get a Red response, it will be just some hypocritical nonsense.

Smug YuiApr 8, 20161 votes

To be fair the reason I don't voice my opinion that often in this types of conversations is because I wish to wait and see what happens and then complain.

Vistha KaiApr 8, 20162 votes

I was once like that too.

I changed, because in my 4 years of playing this game I have been wrong only once about giving opinions on balance/rework changes before they went live.

The only way Mage Update won't be an utter failure, would be massive buffs to all champions affected by changes to items involved.

Smug YuiApr 8, 20161 votes

Well to be fair this numbers they gave is are probably not the final version.

http://imgur.com/3VyYzbU