Monthly reminder that Thornmail is still useless if you aren't Taric, Rammus or Malphite

Saianna·Mar 13, 2016·90 votes·6,227 views

Tbh I don't even see any difference in damage done with thornmail. ADCs outheal thorns with just vampiric scepter...

#best (ADC) meta ever!

http://www.ripthelifeiknew.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/pinata.jpg

Report Hecarim for feeding Lee.

EDIT:

I get lots of comments such as "I built thornmail on X and i'm PRO. Yea great. I won as AP Irelia with best score & damage in my team. But it was just luck of a day to fight against such team on those conditions.

103 Comments

VikíngMar 13, 201652 votes

Umm.... have you forgotten that Ashe always rushes thornmail first item? Didn't you learn that when you first went against Trundle?

SaiannaMar 13, 201624 votes

So... delete Ashe?

DramosMar 13, 201623 votes

Logical solution. If it's in the tutorial, it must be true.

ZGM DazzlingMar 13, 20165 votes

{quoted}

So... delete the tutorial?

fify

Old Man TeetoMar 14, 20163 votes

Wait what? Ashe fought Nunu in the tutorial.

Oh did they update it after 6 years? It's been a while.

SolitairMar 14, 20161 votes

Nunu makes an appearance as an ally champion demonstrating the danger of tanking towers. The enemy champion that you actually fight is trundle

Espy PsycheMar 13, 201632 votes

You forgot Galio as a item 3075 builder.

Flash into enemy team and ult? The return damage on Thornmail ignores the 50% reduced damage Galio takes while ulting, so everyone you've just forced to attack you is beating themselves in the face while your team also beats them in the face.

SaiannaMar 13, 201627 votes

I was wondering if I should include Galio, but then I got scared Riot would nerf him for some retarded reason..

bill84Mar 13, 201617 votes

SHUTUP BEFORE THEY DO IT!!!!!!!!!

The SoulforgedMar 13, 201612 votes

tactically downvote him to stop the spread

DeathBot666Mar 14, 20165 votes

But galio is totally useless. Even if he heals from his shield, and damages with thornmail, he's forcing 5 people to kill him. [zombie-nunu-bummed] (Sarcasm)

DramosMar 13, 201610 votes

Enemy team is confused. They hurt themselves in their confusion.

I never knew Galio could go that close with this popular scene.

Velzard of KozMar 13, 20165 votes

Ashe builds Thornmail. It's not very effective.

YumaS2AstralMar 13, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Espy Psyche,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iwNVQf7M,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-03-13T16:36:28.474+0000)

You forgot as a builder.

Flash into enemy team and ult? The return damage on Thornmail ignores the 50% reduced damage Galio takes while ulting, so everyone you've just forced to attack you is beating themselves in the face while your team also beats them in the face.

Yeah

If tank Galio was more popular I am sure this would be a core item for him

bill84Mar 13, 20161 votes

This is true, Thornmail is core on my Galio build, I usually get it second item (I'm not counting boots as an item)

ApollogyMar 13, 20161 votes

Nobody counts boots, lol

bill84Mar 13, 20162 votes

I just wanted to make it clear.

Weasel KenseiMar 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Espy Psyche,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iwNVQf7M,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-03-13T16:36:28.474+0000)

You forgot as a builder.

Flash into enemy team and ult? The return damage on Thornmail ignores the 50% reduced damage Galio takes while ulting, so everyone you've just forced to attack you is beating themselves in the face while your team also beats them in the face.

Lets face it, youre also building item 3068 because you know theyre going to burn during your ult too.

Big LincolnMar 13, 201620 votes

let's go back to when tanks killed ADCs without doing anything but standing on them with thornmail and gromp buff

that was a fun time for the game :^)

BirefringenceMar 13, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iwNVQf7M,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-03-13T15:24:05.531+0000)

let's go back to when tanks killed ADCs without doing anything but standing on them with thornmail and gromp buff

that was a fun time for the game :^)

Back when adcs got punished for going melee mode. :D

Big LincolnMar 14, 20164 votes

Sejuani brings the melee to ADCs

Robert SmithMar 14, 20161 votes

Rammus :Ok

Quantum WeebMar 14, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Back when adcs got ~~punished for going melee mode~~ playing the game. :D

Ftfy :^)

"Just don't focus the tank."

Critmaster GarenMar 13, 201614 votes

yup. they used those 3 as a baseline for the effectiveness of the item for some reason. if you cant get 500 armor and upwards, thornmail has 0 effect beyond the stats it grants.

and since 1300 gold last whisper is a thing now, investing into big items that only grant armor is a trap. your opponent can already grab a last whisper and make 30% of its armor useless while youre still trying to finish your thronmail.

they need to change the scaling of the passive to scale off resistances in general, so it can be decent on everyone without being op on those 3.

increase the damage return by 5% and lower the armor scaling of the flat damage returned just slightly. then add mr scaling to it.

so the item isnt unproportionally stronger on champions who can stack excessive amounts of armor, than on regular fighters and tanks.

SaiannaMar 13, 20166 votes

a last whisper and make 30% of its armor useless

item 3033

45% And when combined with runes/masteries it's ~50% And BONUS stats on top...

KnoyleMar 13, 20166 votes

And then watch Rammus get nerfed to the ground so hard his relationship with it will look intimate to RekSai

kile147Mar 13, 20166 votes

Eh I'd like to see Thornmail become the anti on-hit item, to counter all these item 3931 + item 3124 champs. To do this make it more like Rammus W, where it has a flat return on-hit, then have that value scale with damage taken. Suddenly Yi will start paying for all those ghost hits he gets.

Tempura KingMar 13, 201611 votes

But ashe and and tutorial and...

AlwaysByMySideMar 13, 20165 votes

Thornmail is fine, it's just a less brainless item now. You can't just get it and expect to nearly kill the enemy ADC by doing literally nothing. Now you have to actually do some damage of your own towards them. It's still strong on the champs mentioned, as well as Dr. Mundo, Nasus, Shyvana, Volibear, Amumu, etc.

I swear, it's almost like you people want to outdamage an ADC's lifesteal with a single cheap purchase or something (I'm joking, I know that is exactly what you clowns want).

SaiannaMar 13, 20163 votes

Thornmail is fine, it's just a less brainless item now.

Cause stacking 400+ armor is so hard on brain..

Meep ManMar 14, 20163 votes

item 3075 is a direct counter to KogMaw

Im still waiting for people to realize this

bookwormpeteMar 13, 20162 votes

What about Shen? He has a taunt, shouldn't he get Thornmail too?

SaiannaMar 13, 20162 votes

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UfOqXFcycB8/hqdefault.jpg

bookwormpeteMar 14, 20162 votes

I haven't ever played Shen outside of aram, so I am honestly curious here: why isn't it a good buy for him? He's naturally tanky, and since he has a taunt move, he might as well exploit it. It seems like a good idea to me.

SaiannaMar 14, 20163 votes

His taunt last too short and Shen isn't as tanky anymore (forced to build some damage)

If you need thornmail, then it's better to go full damage as Shen. You'll kill them alot quicker. Thornmail will just make u into bloody mess after 2 seconds of fight.

Robert SmithMar 14, 20162 votes

His W blocks autos which is what you usually use in his combo so I believe it will not proc damage from thornmail

bookwormpeteMar 15, 20161 votes

Okay, that makes sense.

SpecterVonBarenMar 13, 20161 votes

You know... Why don't they replace the extra item 1029 in the recipe with a item 1033 and change the final stats to 80 armor and 30 MR? They already decided to make it "better against on hit builds" so why not give it some resistance to the magic damage on hit builds deal to you? Would make it a better alrounder item too.

SaiannaMar 13, 20163 votes

Imho:

I am fine thornmail having 100 armor with no other stats I am fine with its cost

I am not fine with useless passive that is negated by:

life steal
mixed damage (kayle/kog/corki/WW/Yi are IMMUNE to thornmail)

Make thornmail return from all types of damage. AD -> returns ap dmg AP -> returns AD dmg Both at 40%.

ApollogyMar 13, 20161 votes

A friend of mine, a diamond master Yi player, recently told me how deadly thornmail is to master Yi. If two takes take it, he can no longer penta kill. rip

Anyway... thornmail's damage is supposed to make that lifesteal on ADCs less effective. But mostly, I think the large amount of base armor it gives for such a low price is it's primary use. I like thornmail's passive, but I rarely buy it for primarily its passive.

I think the only thing thornmail might need is a slight buff to the damage on its passive, and maybe have it give us 120 armor instead. Frozen Heart gives 90 (used to be 100), but it also gives us CDR, mana, and the AS slow passive. That AS slow probably weakens people attacking you, including on hit champions, more than thornmail. It's more expensive, but as the game gets to the late stages, it's probably more efficient in your item slot.

I like thornmail's cost effectiveness. I can purchase thornmail, zzrot, then banshee's and SV or Maw of Mal against a magic damage comp (still has an ADC), mr boots of course. Although, frozen heart would be more useful more than likely, you'd still rather have health...

Dead man's plate is so powerful because of that, it gives movespeed, armor, and health. Health protects you from everything, including true damage. Thornmail has never seemed as bad as people are saying it is. When the situation calls for frozen heart and thornmail because the enemy team has 4 AD champs... then it will shine. Like most items, everything is situational.

SaiannaMar 13, 20161 votes

I think the only thing thornmail might need is a slight buff to the damage on its passive, and maybe have it give us 120 armor instead.

I don't wanna be rude, but by writing this you clearly show you have no idea what's wrong with thornmail.

Riot gimped this passive while serving us some weird twisted logic like "it's all fine cause we know what it'll do".. And Guess what? They didn't know what they did :|

ApollogyMar 14, 20162 votes

I'm aware they changed the passive.

Just hasn't really made much of a difference for me. I have thornmail as an option for what thornmail is good at. That's about it.

Looks like it'll return 100-250 damage depending on how much damage the ADC is doing and how much armor you have. It's probably not as strong as it used to be. It used to be 30% of the damage inflicted. It's impossible for that 25% of bonus armor to actually make up for another 15% of an ADC's damage, but I'm sure it's still an effective way to combat lifesteal. (Most ADCs will have botrk and bloodthirster for most of their lifesteal, so this helps to even the fight, and the 100 armor alone already reduces their damage to you by a massive amount).

Does this damage apply to crits too?

WimbledofyMar 13, 20163 votes

any champ that autoattack IS NOT IMMUNE to thornmail. Kayle/kog/corki/yi/ww are perfect example of champions that ARE NOT immune to thornmail, also Kayle and yi do not build any lifesteal. Thornmail does damage based on enemy attack and your own armor. You know who is really immune to thornmail? Any ap or ad caster that doesn't apply on hits with their abilities.

SaiannaMar 13, 20162 votes

By "immune" I mean that (almost) half of champions AA damage isn't registered for thornmail because it's either MAGIC damage or TRUE damage.

Just cause you haven't met Kayle or Yi building lifesteal, doesn't mean EVERY Kayle/Yi don't build it. So don't act cocky.

Thornmail does damage based on enemy attack and your own armor.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/7/72/Orly.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081126173842

(that's the part why Thornmail SUCKS BALLS)

VivaLaKittenMar 13, 20161 votes

But Nasus Nasus is op with thornmail item 3075 and visage item 3065

SaiannaMar 13, 20163 votes

yea, and sandwitch is op with beer.

everything depends on situation. But in my experience tornmail I bough didn't make me tankier, didn't punish 3 ADCs i faced it just was in my item slot. I could have bought second pair of boots for the same effect.

Kuroi86Mar 14, 20161 votes

ADCs outheal thorns with just vampiric scepter...

Incorrect, 99% of ADC also take life steal masteries and often runes, yet still require higher levels of life steal to over heal the damage from Thornmail. Thornmail is designed to be more efficient than life steal.

Life steal is calculated from the actual damage done to an enemy, after armor and all other forms of damage reduction.

item 3075 Reflects 15% of the physical damage taken (+ 25% bonus armor) from basic attacks and on-hit effects back to its source as magic damage (Calculated before any resistances or reductions are taken into account).

Report Hecarim for feeding Lee.

Report Hec for building troll. Of all the items that work on him Thornmail is one of the poorest you can buy.

Thornmail is still useless

I think it's overnerfed, but hardly useless. I've pondered how to give it some added power without just going backwards or going in a direction that Riot has stated they don't feel good with.

Honestly, I've pondered if there is a way to give Thornmail some MagPen...

WiegrafOfValorMar 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Incorrect, 99% of ADC also take life steal masteries and often runes, yet still require higher levels of life steal to over heal the damage from Thornmail. Thornmail is designed to be more efficient than life steal.

Life steal is calculated from the actual damage done to an enemy, after armor and all other forms of damage reduction.

Reflects 15% of the physical damage taken (+ 25% bonus armor) from basic attacks and on-hit effects back to its source as magic damage (Calculated before any resistances or reductions are taken into account).

Report Hec for building troll. Of all the items that work on him Thornmail is one of the poorest you can buy.

I think it's overnerfed, but hardly useless. I've pondered how to give it some added power without just going backwards or going in a direction that Riot has stated they don't feel good with.

Honestly, I've pondered if there is a way to give Thornmail some MagPen...

I think you're ignoring the attacker MR, because Thornmail don't deal true damage + ignoring the fact that champions have Abilities as well, and they don't get deflected by Thormail, also tgey can just AA a minion or another champion to heal up with Lifesteal

Kuroi86Mar 15, 20161 votes

100% correct.

A bit part of the problem I see with Thornmail is it's damage is fairly easily negated, why I think finding a way to add on some MagPen would do it wonders.

Solidair3Mar 14, 20161 votes

I dunno about all that. In a game where I wasn't particularly fed the other day, an enemy shen got thornmail and it shut me down pretty hard, couldn't really fight him effectively as an adc.