Ok this is a good fucking joke riot, well done.
Youre nerfing the whatever part (barely, because conquerer was never a strong laning rune anyways so this nerf doesnt mean shit) and leaving the far more problematic true dmg conversion part unchecked.
saltran16 votesActually is a real nerf for the early game since 4 ad matters on the first trades, later it wont be notticed.
EasternBladeStar13 votesAt least it wasn't--
5 AD !!
LatetotheRace1 votesHEEEHEEHEEE
AmazoX9 votesThey nerfed it without gutting it like you biasedly want, stop being an ungrateful player, deal with it, appreciate it.
BigTiddieNGR8 votesYou cant be serious? conqueror is the weakest rune( his users) right now, the rune is bandaid for the champs that use it (bruisers)
TempName5484610 votesconqueror is the weakest rune( his users) right now, the rune is bandaid for the champs that use it (bruisers)
this doesn't make sense ... and i read it a couple of times trying to understand.
Daddy Tie Me Up9 votesconqueror is the weakest rune - meaning that even conqueror users are better off with press the attack,comet,grasp of the undying except for few exceptions 
the rune is band aid for bruisers - without conqueror top lane was dominated by tanks. With conqueror top lane roster grew to roughly 2,5x the size than before. With conqueror and without tanks, much more champions are viable other than tank busters.
Honestly all conqueror does is remove tanks from the game which is statistically not bad in any sense other than giving autofills braindead champions to play and win lane againist someone who mains bruisers. If you wanna win on top lane, its time to start actually playing top lane.
Rouwhorst6 votesIsn't that a contradiction? a) it is only good on a few champions b) the roster grew with 2.5?
First picking a tank might be (a bit) riskier now with those few exceptions, but you would say the "counter" pick could still be a tank? How did most tanks vanish then?
Queš11 votesThey got butchered by personal nerfs.We can go and look entire top tanks roster.
1.
He got destroyed by recent nerfs because,even after conqueror,he was destroying ppl in lane and was #1-2 priority pick in competitive.As a fellow s5-s7 Sion player I can say that he is one of the safest pick on top and you used to win lane against 90% roster.Watch patch history he got nerfed hard.
2.
He got nerfed at 45% wr like 2 patches ago because he was too dominant in pro play,EVEN WITH CONQUEROR EXISTING.He IS still solid pick in competitive,but in soloq there is a little hope for him and no.it is not because in conqueror.In fact I think even now he wins majority of lane matchup with conqueror.
3.
He got nerf on PBE right now despite his very poor performance in soloq.But why?Because he is too strong in competitive and shares fate of those above.
4.
this dude has like 52% wr even with recent nerfs,he is not even close to being "weak".
5.
this annoying Yordle got recently buffed(remember how she was 100% p/b in competitive and riot had to destroy her with nerfs) and she is being picked in competitive again + she is good in soloq too now.She wins against majority of divers and skirmishers.
6.
even though he is the most outdated tank - he is still ok in soloq(obviously no picks in competitive).In fact he counters many bruisers.
7.
idk why he isnt played more,he is good right now.I think he will be picked soon in competitive again(also he got nerfed constantly because of his competitive performance).49-50% wr.
8.
well he is forgotten kinda,i am not sure how good he is,but even if he becomes SLIGHTY decent - he get immideately picked in competitive because of his R and Q.Very risky to buff champion.
9.
just got buffed and ,even though his wr in soloq only 47-48%,he is already being pciked everywhere in competitive.Coincidence?
You can see very interesting pattern that tanks are always very strong in competitive and they get nerfs BECAUSE OF THAT and many of them are not viable because of that nerfs and not because of conqueror.
Tokogawaruf2 votes1+ for Informations. Well written
Rouwhorst1 votesSo, okay tanks aren't unviable because of conqueror, makes sense, but then why are they nerfing it?
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesCuz reddit is bitching about it. Simple. Same as reddit bitched about steraks so it got trashed.
Reddit pretends that everything is a bruiser now. Botlane vlad, swain, heimer, brand, zyra, yasuo all bruisers. Tali, kindred, graves in jungle are all bruisers. So riot is nerfing it cuz reddit bitches.
That's why riot does a rather light nerf instead of a hefty one. You often see this when riot doesn't really want to nerf something but community won't shutup.
Daddy Tie Me Up4 votesIsn't that a contradiction? a) it is only good on a few champions b) the roster grew with 2.5?
No its not. You see, conqueror killed tanks and that openned top lane for more choices. Highest win rate champs on top lane do not even use conqueror by the way. So no it isnt contradiction. Its a correlation. Who would have guess that when you remove fundamentally broken class from lane, more than just anti tanks are actually viable.
First picking a tank might be (a bit) riskier now with those few exceptions, but you would say the "counter" pick could still be a tank?
No counter pick to tanks is conqueror. Before conqueror, tanks had no counter pick. Thats why everyone picked tanks. Thats why top lane was so boring. Thats why its play rate got below support in high elo. Thats why riot is gona nerf 5 ad early on and not true damage. Because they know that people quit top because of tanks. Because they know that noone watches tank mains streams. Because they know that tanks do not bring any attention to the game.
How did most tanks vanish then?
Because of conqueror. Its simple really.
Rouwhorst1 votesWell, the problem I am getting at is that you say only a select group of champions uses conqueror and that because of conqueror tanks became unviable. But at the moment there are but a few conqueror users and a lot of games don't contain them. And most other top laners use something else over conqueror, tanks could be played in those matches if conqueror is really the case. But the problem is that this doesn't happen. How do you explain that, how do you explain the lack of tanks versus non-conqueror matchups?
Daddy Tie Me Up1 votesBecause you can pick conqueror on champions which do not want conqueror. Let me give you an example : Lets pick Olaf, a comet user. Olaf already posses true damage on his E but it costs his health so every trade with tank would be loose to you anyway. If you pick comet to any other matchup, bonus damage from comet is much more reliable than 4 second delay before activation and is much better tool for laning phase. If however your oponent picked that champion whose build is on average 25-50% cheaper, scales with his defensive stats, scales with your defensive stats, and all he has to do is build armor, comet is gona hit for jack shit.
Even if you first picked champion that does not favor conqueror, you can still use it. Exceptions are AP top lames which never really struggled againist tanks because they dont have to trade with them, GP because he doesnt have to trade with them, and few assassins which would get fucked. But honestly the reason why I stopped picking Jax during tank metas is the same reason people wont pick tanks now. I stopped because I stopped believeing I would ever get fair matchup. Which is pretty much impossible when second most braindead class in the game becomes best laner while also being best teamfighter.
TempName548461 votesconqueror is the weakest rune
you mean its not used because its so strong that only champions that its bad against can be played due to how over powered it is?
Honestly all conqueror does is remove tanks from the game which is statistically not bad in any sense other than giving autofills braindead champions to play and win lane againist someone who mains bruisers
tanks have never won lane against bruisers, well if the bruiser players are good anyways. hell i don't even play tanks and i'd much rather play against tanks top lane than the shit we have to deal with nowadays.
Daddy Tie Me Up5 votesyou mean its not used because its so strong that only champions that its bad against can be played due to how over powered it is?
Yes exactly
tanks have never won lane against bruisers, well if the bruiser players are good anyways. hell i don't even play tanks and i'd much rather play against tanks top lane than the shit we have to deal with nowadays.
And you cant be serious. You cant actually be serious that tanks never won lane againist bruiser. You cant actually mean that. Because if you do, you either never played top before conqueror or you are straight up mentally challenged.
TempName548461 voteseh played a few hundred top lane games this season and very rarely did i lose lane to tanks as bruisers before conqueror was added (playing mostly camille, trynda, jax and gp). the thing with tank lanes is that as a bruiser you just have so many more options and tools at your disposal that if you do lose lane its because of your missplays / missed opportunities not because of the tank you are facing.
My Waifu Vanilla2 votesAnd I played Ornn and Malphite before conqueror and won literally every trade imaginable with Grasp and statchecking. You could literally walk up to people under tower as Malphite on only a chain vest (still can btw) and Grasp Auto+E them and take zero damage while they lose 1/5 health.
TempName548461 voteswhy are your opponents under turret against a champion with trash waveclear and high manacosts? why is a tank walking up to them and trading for free? how to beat malphite on any bruiser that isn't jax: get a vamp cepter, shove his ass into tower, take the enemy jungle camps between waves till you can just straight up kill him.
Daddy Tie Me Up2 votesTill you can straight up kill Malphite. Ok you are mentally impaired. End of discussion.
TempName548461 votesi guess being mentally impaired is what helps me to climb higher than you playing literally any role in the game.
My Waifu Vanilla1 votesExcept Malphite shoves harder than most bruisers after a Chain Vest. One W auto+E and like 1 bami tick kills casters and the rest of W kills the melees. Meanwhile I hit you with the E at the same time not drawing creep aggro and halving your attack speed. Also even IF you fight back I will basically "heal" for 12.5% of my health through my passive and one grasp proc while taking next to no damage since i have 100+ armor.
Also mana problems aren't real when you can start corrupting and your mana costs are low af and you have good mana stats. The only spell that actually costs mana is Q.
Cosnirak7 votesI think it's a much bigger nerf than it looks like. -4 AD is not a small thing early and for champs that use it well it's up nearly 100% of the time that 4 AD matters.
Something easy to forget when it comes to AD nerfs, especially compared to AP nerfs, is that AD not only applies towards abilities based on their AD ratios, but also every single auto attack at a 100% ratio (except Kalista's wonky 90% aa ratio).
GayFluffyUnicorn3 votesOr we just nerf yasuo and tryndamere instead of everyone who uses it.
Cosnirak1 votesPersonally I think the entire design is bad and would prefer it scrapped entirely. Do I also hate Yasuo and Tryndamere and wish both were nerfed into the ground regardless? Hell yes I do! But still, Conquerer is all around OP atm and a bad design in general.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesI don't want them to be nerfed because i hate them (i do atleast hate tryndas RNG i currently hate yasuo because he is hilariously overtuned) but because conq flat AD makes yasuo retarded to face in lane so that people actually rush AS on him atleast in soloQ and the conq AD PLUS true damage working for trynds crit makes it even more bullshit.
On everyone else it is pretty much fine and does its job. If it were OP you would see it picked on a lot of champions even those who don't want it. Like how a kled wouldn't necessarily want somethign like grasp but grasp is broken enough for him to abuse it well.
Personal experience, statistics, high elo/comp play there is absolutely no indication that conq is op because it isn't and somehow people STILL pretend that conq gives you 20% BONUS true dmg or something when all it does is convert your OWN dmg.
Cosnirak1 votesI think it's simply far more complicated than that. It obviously insn't op on Syndra. And it's probably not op on every AD melee carry either. But I do think it's op on more than just those two champions. Also I'm pretty sure we agree that at some point it's better to change a rune than just some of the champs that use it. So is conqueror really past that line? Fuck if I know. I'm pretty sure neither of us have remotely enough data nor the quality of data we'd need to really asses that for certain. My instincts say change conqueror, yours says those two champs.
The fact that it's so much better on some champs who still should be using it than it is on some other champs who should be using it is one more reason it's a bad design...
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesNo why would i agree on it? Why would i nerf a keystone when only two fuckin champions abuse it hard? Makes no sense. Nerf the champion be done with it. We do have data. I also play the game as do many others. Doesn't matter what people "feel" or "think".
Not really? Where is the logic behind that? If we go by that logic EVERY keystone is a bad design because EVERY SINGLE ONE works better on some champions compared to other champions that's only natural.
Electrocute should be good on syndra since she is a burst mage but it really isn't. Comet should be good on her, she pokes a lot but it really isnt.
I can go on.
Cosnirak1 votesOther champs abuse it hard enough to nerf it over them.
The data we have is abysmal compared to what Riot has and what we would need to make good judgements based on the data.
What people "feel" or "think" matters a lot. This is a game. Even if the whole thing is perfectly balanced if it feels awful to play changes need to be made.
Every keystone is better on some champions than others sure, but if the difference in power it has from between multiple champions that are both intended users and are best off with that keystone is too big then there's a problem with the design. It's a matter of degree, but it's still essential. There's some room for difference, but if it's too wide Riot should change something.
Keystones users are not strictly defined by loose playstyle descriptions, nor should they be. They are at least somewhat specific to exact play patterns, though of course there are intended and typically obvious correlations. Also comet is good on her. Electrocute is probably good on her in the right matchups.
3TWarrior1 votesor it only costs like a 20th of a second if you time your farm right?
some instances AD is so low that multiple auto attacks are needed, but it's usually just a pattern and working with the minions
Cosnirak1 votesI'm really not sure what you're saying at all. What costs a 20th of a second? If you mean conqueror, why does your sentence start with "or?"
Multiple auto attacks are needed for what? Again I really have no idea what you're saying, sorry. I might be missing something obvious, you might have made some typos, I don't know.
3TWarrior1 voteswell, to put it simply, 4 AD only interrupts how the champion feels to play and barely makes an impact on their actual damage
basically, what I meant is that you have to change your farm pattern to be more in line with the minions
let's take aatrox for example. If you lose that 4 AD, overall, he would only lose 14 damage from his kit and his farm would be more annoying but this would only slightly influence his gameplay pattern by cutting down some of his gold income
in the grand scheme of things, Aatrox for instance starts with 510 hp
14 damage out of 510 not counting armor is about a 3% increase in what he needs to kill a target and fairly negligible
if you throw auto attacks into it, if you somehow engaged in an encounter long enough for 10 strikes, it would reduce his damage count by one BF sword while still doing 560 to 1410 (assuming they took it from total as well) damage before armor in those attacks
if we take the base armor for him at 33, it's roughly 75% damage taken, or 421 damage from autos compared to 451
this is an extremely long extended trade and makes a negligible impact at the weakest point in the game
if you somehow got into this skirmish at level 1 and managed to hit all of your Q in sweet spots, the damage comes to about 578 or so or enough to "kill" the target, and that's not counting his passive damage or the runes
it's a difference, but a small one that ultimately does not change the result
changes to base AD only affect the champion's farming phase, which can be good if you know where to interrupt it, but otherwise, not much changes
Cosnirak1 votesYou're neglecting a few things there. First, your post armor math ignores that Conqueror effectively negates some of that armor, any AD it gives is effectively slightly more than it seems vs champions because if it's online so is the true damage conversion.
Second, your math is off. His total kit amplifies bonus AD by 530%. 4 x 530% = 21.2. And that completely ignores his R adding .8 due to that 4 (4 x 20% = .8) which then gets turned into 4.24 by the rest of his kit (.8 x 530% = 4.24). Even if by his total kit you meant him just having Q at level 1 it still comes to 18 damage, not 14. A typical trade or fight has 1-4 auto attacks, for another 4-16 damage. At level 6 we're talking a total ~40 pre mit damage in a duel to the death, easily enough to decide who lives and who dies, especially in a 2v2. That's not even an extra auto attack's worth of damage, but it's still a lot more than I've survived many a fight by.
Third, it affecting farming eventually affects champion vs champion combat. Every minion missed is potentially more damage lost due to less items later or a delayed back to farm more. Also wave clear speed matters, especially early on, and this definitely affects that.
No one is saying this is a huge nerf, far from it. But it does matter more than it appears to in the eyes of many. And you shouldn't just say it, "does not change the result" and that, "changes to base AD only affect the champion's farming phase" because those are empirically false. But does conqueror need a huge nerf? I don't think so. I think it needs to be deleted completely, but not for being OP.
P.S. Aatrox starts with 610 hp. :p
3TWarrior1 voteseh, you're right, they changed the formatting of the wiki and now use sliders so its really annoying
I still maintain that it mostly affects the farming phase though
Cosnirak1 votesI completely agree that it mostly affects the farming phase, especially as it still scales to the same AD at lvl 18 that it did before. But in this meta that phase often decides the game...
DuskDaUmbreon4 votesThe true damage conversion is the healthy part. It may or may not be a bit overtuned, but the rune's purpose is to give bruisers a better chance against tanks in lane, while still remaining relevant late-game. The best way to do that is true damage conversion.
The AD is the least healthy part. Period. 35 AD for hitting minions for 4 seconds is not healthy.
Nerf the AD down to 6-20, and that's a much better step in the right direction. Makes it less effective against squishies.
AirKingNeo4 votesnerfing the early game of conqueror while Grasp still beats it early wtf
Fízz v22 votesI think theyll nerf it more in 8.15 if they need to but they wanted to ship a nerf in 8.14?
Malix Farwin30 votes[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vt7oUENA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-14T14:52:47.249+0000)
I think theyll nerf it more in 8.15 if they need to but they wanted to ship a nerf in 8.14?
Those nerfs feel like a placebo though.
Leetri13 votesPlacebos do work though. One time when Riven was really, really bad and clunky Riot gave her some buffs and cleaned her up. People said she felt much better to play and her play- and win rate increased. However, they forgot to actually put it in the game so she was just as bad and clunky as before. Another time when Vlad was really OP Riot nerfed him pretty harshly. But again, they forgot to actually put it in the game. Yet his play- and win rate tanked like hell, despite nothing changing.
Arcane Blue Boi6 voteswukong got nerfed by 40 base damage instead of being instakilled by 2340 dmg you will instead be instakilled by 2300 lets talk about placebo
Galaxy Destoryer1 votesTell LS about that lol he thought 55 damage off camille e was a huge nerf
Arcane Blue Boi3 votesI'm assuming he said that because it impacts her trading/ lethal in lane, and most importantly because she maxes it first. Because she maxes it first, it starts to impact the gameplay in the early game, and because she isnt suppost to instakill the champion, she will try to make short trades, where she will lose a bit of dmg per trade from very early on. And that damage keeps acumulating throught the game since lv4 when she starts putting points onto her E.
In wukong's case, he will only start putting points onto his E at level 10. At level 10, atm, he is already able to oneshot any squishy. By the time his E damage starts increasing with the points, it matters less and less, as he already would be able to oneshot people anyways. Realisticaly, 40 damage wont matter by that time when wukong already reached his powerspike anyways
Sorry if i didnt make myself clear, its really late in EU rn
Galaxy Destoryer1 votesI’m pretty sure most wu kong max e but cool oh course I don’t know what u eu player max on wu Kong I would guess w or r
Arcane Blue Boi1 votesYeah my bad, i wasnt aware wukong maxed E, as i never played him. That may change some things. We'll see soon enough
M00ndanc32 votesthey already nerfed the true damage conversion a patch or so ago down to 15% IIR
DragonShea24 votesthey already nerfed the true damage conversion a patch or so ago down to 15% IIR
TheGreatNinx1 votesYea most melee champions aren't building i.e. Only yasuo. Any other gets no use out of building it unless your going your patent Full AD Crit Darius. Ranged can't refresh the keystone so it's far less effective on ranged