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"Vayne should never be meta, when she is, theres a problem" - scarra

Reformedfindlay··91 votes·9,267 views

http://www.op.gg/champion/vayne/statistics/adc

Well here we are. Near 25% pick rate with 51.5% win rate. This is especially strong for an adc due to the fact that 2 adcs are in nearly every single game, meaning pr and wr are in relation to other adcs.

Shes not necessarily mega broken, but she can use a tone down, especially after preseason. Fleet footwork or PtA (for even more dmg) along with the damage trees in general allow vayne to excel at murdering squishies just as if not even harder than tanks. Her burst potential with her ultimate active can get a little silly.

Honestly, they should remove the ult AD gain entirely and give her 1 or 2 % more damage on her w to put her back to an on hit build, which although aggravating to face, is probably a lot healthier than her current build and playstyle which revolves around crit two/three shots with the true dmg being icing on the cake that matters only against the heaviest of tanks.

PS

If youre looking for the scarra quote, its from an old patch notes review of his from when riot reverted a tumble ad ratio buff in season 6.

EDIT

Here is a more detailed explanation of why scarra said what he said, and why I reiterate his wisdom now.

"While in an ideal world, every champ would be meta, the reality is that champs like vayne fill a niche role that they exceed very well in. If they are meta, that means they fill their niche role and also excel outside of it, and that usually means they're overpowered.

When I and scarra say that vayne should never be meta, what is actually being said is that vayne is a niche character that should only be picked by either one tricks or into situations where she can fulfill her niche very well.

If you think it's idiotic, then you must also think that rammus should excel into a 4-5 man AP team, and darius should excel against a poke heavy team. After all, every champ should be allowed to be meta no matter what right?"

DOUBLE EDIT

https://youtu.be/A5Gb1r1aNtk?t=982

For those interested, he talks more about vayne in the beginning as well.

"Whenever vayne is meta, riot's balance team has to take note of that because vayne should never be a meta champion..."

162 Comments

YoIocaust56 votes

this should be said about all hypercarries, they are shining at a time where games last shorter then ever. i hope riot fixes it before season 8 starts, but we all know whats gonna happen.

they will just nerf gragas lux blitz or some random shit

Kaìju7 votes

The issue with marksmen is they focus on damage and not utility. Jhin, Ashe, Sivir, and Varus are all utility marksmen. They do a job and even if they aren't fed they can be worth something, some ranged DPS and poke or engage or vision or something. But when you make five champs that all just do damage, Twitch, Vayne, Trist, Jinx, and Kog, then all they do is rotate who has the highest damage numbers. Marksmen need to shift from a damage focused class to a ranged utility focused class.

Auz the Ripper16 votes

Vayne and Trist have a niche beside damage: self-peel. Vayne and trist can survive in situations twitch kog and jinx would instantly die.

Though this adds to the list of reason vayne shouldn't be meta

Kaìju5 votes

That niche isn't really useful besides do more damage though. They don't help the team, like utility carries do.

kile1477 votes

They apply death, which is the best CC.

Hawkefire5 votes

I have no problem with hypercarries being meta. I have a problem with hypercarries hitting hypercarry status at ~15 minutes into the game, if not sooner.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Know what would help tone this down a bit?

V5.22

Attack damage reduced to 40 from 50.
Gold cost reduced to Gold 1300 from Gold 1550.

If Riot reverted this.

Seriously, I remember when it was a tactical choice for an ADC who had gotten an early kill in bot lane to either sit on their gold so they could save up for a item 1038 or buy something earlier like a item 3144 or item 1037. Now it doesn't matter who won a fight in bot lane, both ADC's end up coming back to lane with a BF Sword.

Saucy Jack26 votes

honestly i think ranged hypercarries should carry in ways other than "end the game before i become a stat steamroller"

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Yup, had to experience this once again yesterday. Enemy picks corki, vayne gets shit on for 25 mins. Our wukong jungle actually afked (legit afk farming always on the opposite site of the map i guess he trolled) and we simply couldnt end 4v5 welp too bad. Corki has three items and just takes 3/4 of my health with an AA and a rocket no counterplay, nothing you can do against. They just won because these "hypercarries" are plain bullshit and have no counterplay. "Lategame fantasy" i wonder where my "counterplay fantasy" is

It Hertz When IP13 votes

Fairly sure Corki isn't a hypercarry.

Daddy Ants10 votes

[{quoted}](name=It Hertz When IP,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qi7nH3G3,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-01-02T14:57:42.045+0000)

Fairly sure Corki isn't a hypercarry.

He isn't.

He's a mid game champ.

Divewing6 votes

When he crits you for almost 1k magic damage, I do sometimes wonder though...

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Yah but to get that much raw damage he can't be investing in a lot of MPen, which means you just build MR. And if there's one thing I know, it's that just about every class except mages has a solid MR option.

Mages just kind of hope they got a long range CC to whammy him with. Which kinda blows.

Thilmer6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ikariya Biolante,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qi7nH3G3,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-01-02T11:12:15.942+0000)

honestly i think ranged hypercarries should carry in ways other than "end the game before i become a stat steamroller"

I wouldn't mind that if hipercarries were late game champions. But rigth now they reach late game with 2 items.

Daddy Ants7 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't mind that if hipercarries were late game champions. But rigth now they reach late game with 2 items.

Then games need to go on longer than 25 minutes.

That's realistic if there was such thing as a "late game"

Thilmer6 votes

{quoted}

Then games need to go on longer than 25 minutes.

That's realistic if there was such thing as a "late game"

Agree.

Athenes Lulu18 votes

We need to emphasize that our "short range designated tank killer" is assassinating squishies in addition to still be extremely effective at killing tanks.

Should not have both at once.

Wicked Hunter5 votes

She has no aoe one of the lowest range in the game and u want her to be nerfed right? You realize what are u saying. She has lots of weaknesses u can exploit ofc she must compensate in late game for this. Ashe, Cait, MF, Lucian all got nice kit for farming easy, same for Tristana.

Infernape9 votes

Vayne's range isn't actually that low. It's average. Most marksmen (including Vayne) have an AA range of 550. There are quite a lot of marksmen with AA ranges below hers (Xayah, Jinx and Quinn's AA range is 525 and Kindred, Sivir, Kog'Maw, and Lucian's AA range is 500)

Doozku5 votes

All of those champs have some ability that they can use that goes beyond their AA range so they can farm and poke safely. Vayne doesnt.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

vayne has self-peel and essentially a perpetual mobility steroid.

T4underbolt2 votes

Vayne has more range (or same range) as most adcs. Those are the one having more and usually with certain situtations: -Varus just 25 more -Ashe 50 more -Cait 100 more -Tristana due to her passive -Jinx with level 3 rockets has more range -Kog with W active lvl 2 -Twitch with ult.

So mostly adc that have more range than her can only have that range for few seconds if they use an ability or have passive (tristana). The rest of adcs have less range or the same range. Argument of her low range is invalid.

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

Vayne has more range (or same range) as most adcs. Those are the one having more and usually with certain situtations: -Varus just 25 more -Ashe 50 more -Cait 100 more -Tristana due to her passive -Jinx with level 3 rockets has more range -Kog with W active lvl 2 -Twitch with ult.

So mostly adc that have more range than her can only have that range for few seconds if they use an ability or have passive (tristana). The rest of adcs have less range or the same range. Argument of her low range is invalid.

Actually Jinx has more range with rank 1 rockets.

Fishbones, the Rocket Launcher: Basic attacks deal 110% Damage to the target and nearby enemies, gain 75/100/125/150/175 range, drain Mana, and scale 25% less with bonus Attack Speed.

Jinx has 600 range with Rank 1 rockets.

Tzuyu Is My Bias2 votes

But also all other adc's with less range, have an ability that goes outside their AA range so they can farm and poke. Vayne has literally only her auto attacks. most the adc's with more range, also have an ability that goes outside their AA range.

Kyovulpes13 votes

I logged in to say this cause no one ever talks about it but vayne has a high winrate cause castor ADCs MissFortune Ezreal took a recking with the intentional and UN-intentional nerfs. But then we would complain that item 3147 shoudn't be bursting squishies. I think squishies just dont like being squished.[sg-ahri-2]

LuxannaVeritas8 votes

{quoted}

I think squishies just dont like being squished.

This is the best line I've seen in this comment section, hands down.

I play squishies a lot in the support role (mainly mages, but also enchanters), so I'm used to getting squished if my positioning is off. You don't know how many people are actually surprised when they play ADC, and the enemy assassin roams down and bursts them.

"WTF why do they do so much damage, they shouldn't be able to kill me"

The only true damage being done is to my patience.

Stars Shaper9 votes

I find that statement really idiotic. If some champions aren’t allowed to be meta then there is an issue with the game.

Ranmaru22 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qi7nH3G3,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-01-02T08:50:40.036+0000)

I find that statement really idiotic. If some champions aren’t allowed to be meta then there is an issue with the game.

Lemme just say this statement is idiotic..........A lot of champions arent allowed to be meta, and when a champ becomes meta they gain a bigger player base but when a champ with a already big player base (vayne,yasuo,riven,ahri) gets a win rate above 52% at most if not all elos then its a much much bigger problem.

Stars Shaper11 votes

I can see the issue with champions like Mordekaiser or Nunu but usually problematic champions like those are in line for reworks for this exact reason. Popularity shouldn't be an index to keep or deny a champion being meta, it's like removing Coca Cola and Pepsi from markets because they are the most popular brands

ValyrianBlade5 votes

{quoted}

Lemme just say this statement is idiotic..........A lot of champions arent allowed to be meta, and when a champ becomes meta they gain a bigger player base but when a champ with a already big player base (vayne,yasuo,riven,ahri) gets a win rate above 52% at most if not all elos then its a much much bigger problem.

This is wrong and shows the boards bias quite clearly.

There's nothing wrong with ahri having a large player base and a 53% win rate. She was balanced for years with that. Ahri is a GENERALIST. Generalists should be allowed to have higher play rates and win rates because they work with many team comps, are safe first picks, and can typically be mained/one-tricked with little consequence. A player can get the advantage of becoming an expert on one champion while simultaneously not suffering the consequences of only playing one champion because a generalist can be played many different ways.

Ahri's win rate seems okay now, but she's actually really weak compared to most mid Lane champions. She has so little damage that she's incapable of threatening anyone who's not completely incompetent.

Vayne or Yasuo are a completely different story though. These champions are not at all generalists. Yasuo is an ad mid which alone is enough to make him someone that should be niche. Vayne has % max health true damage, which is even more niche (Riot has discussed limiting % max health true damage, and when it does exist it should define the champion). Either of these champions seeing win rates over 50% should be big trouble, as they're played too often to be only picked when they should be. So they should lose more because they're picked in a lot of situations where they shouldn't be. You can't main/one-trick Yasuo or vayne without suffering the consequence of not bringing things to your team comp that other players could bring.

Ahri being left meta for 3+ seasons wasn't riot's balancing mistake - it was correct as she wasn't OP - just a generalist (her over nerfs in response to community outcry were a mistake, but you can't really blame them for that). Letting vayne remain as strong as she has since preseason started is a mistake though. The recent Yasuo buffs probably were too.

Ranmaru2 votes

{quoted}

This is wrong and shows the boards bias quite clearly.

There's nothing wrong with ahri having a large player base and a 53% win rate. She was balanced for years with that. Ahri is a GENERALIST. Generalists should be allowed to have higher play rates and win rates because they work with many team comps, are safe first picks, and can typically be mained/one-tricked with little consequence. A player can get the advantage of becoming an expert on one champion while simultaneously not suffering the consequences of only playing one champion because a generalist can be played many different ways.

Ahri's win rate seems okay now, but she's actually really weak compared to most mid Lane champions. She has so little damage that she's incapable of threatening anyone who's not completely incompetent.

Vayne or Yasuo are a completely different story though. These champions are not at all generalists. Yasuo is an ad mid which alone is enough to make him someone that should be niche. Vayne has % max health true damage, which is even more niche (Riot has discussed limiting % max health true damage, and when it does exist it should define the champion). Either of these champions seeing win rates over 50% should be big trouble, as they're played too often to be only picked when they should be. So they should lose more because they're picked in a lot of situations where they shouldn't be. You can't main/one-trick Yasuo or vayne without suffering the consequence of not bringing things to your team comp that other players could bring.

Ahri being left meta for 3+ seasons wasn't riot's balancing mistake - it was correct as she wasn't OP - just a generalist (her over nerfs in response to community outcry were a mistake, but you can't really blame them for that). Letting vayne remain as strong as she has since preseason started is a mistake though. The recent Yasuo buffs probably were too.

Ahri was a bad example tbh, and you made some really nice points here.

Snowplosion3 votes

Skarner Rengar Mordekaiser

nice table5 votes

I find your statement really idiotic, it's not as evident anymore but back in the day there were champions that countered certain team comps hard (trundle vs a single tank, vayne vs many tanks, gp vs non aggressive laners, galio vs heavy magic damage teams, malphite vs triple ad etc.) and if any of these champions would actually have been viable to be picked into team comps they weren't good against they would break the game, much like vayne is now.

Rendrex3 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qi7nH3G3,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2018-01-02T13:43:30.202+0000)

I find your statement really idiotic, it's not as evident anymore but back in the day there were champions that countered certain team comps hard (trundle vs a single tank, vayne vs many tanks, gp vs non aggressive laners, galio vs heavy magic damage teams, malphite vs triple ad etc.) and if any of these champions would actually have been viable to be picked into team comps they weren't good against they would break the game, much like vayne is now.

Vayne design is old and obnoxious with the usual excuse of 'requiring skill to pull off' I can't remember a meta where she used to be actually weak.

Unvictus10 votes

What the OP is trying to say is that some champions like vayne shouldn’t be meta because they fill a specific niche. Vayne for example is a tank busting hyper carry. “But what if tanks are really strong? Then shouldn’t vayne be meta too?” Problem is when champions who are supposed to fill a niche are preforming exceptionally well in circumstances outside their niche (vayne bursting squishies at mid game for example).

Reformedfindlay3 votes

{quoted}

What the OP is trying to say is that some champions like vayne shouldn’t be meta because they fill a specific niche. Vayne for example is a tank busting hyper carry. “But what if tanks are really strong? Then shouldn’t vayne be meta too?” Problem is when champions who are supposed to fill a niche are preforming exceptionally well in circumstances outside their niche (vayne bursting squishies at mid game for example).

God bless you someone gets it. I also edited the OP to make that clearer.

Reformedfindlay2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qi7nH3G3,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-01-02T08:50:40.036+0000)

I find that statement really idiotic. If some champions aren’t allowed to be meta then there is an issue with the game.

That is merely a reflection of your own lack of intelligence then. While in an ideal world, every champ would be meta, the reality is that champs like vayne fill a niche role that they exceed very well in. If they are meta, that means they fill their niche role and also excel outside of it, and that usually means they're overpowered.

When I and scarra say that vayne should never be meta, what is actually being said is that vayne is a niche character that should only be picked by either one tricks or into situations where she can fulfill her niche very well.

If you think it's idiotic, then you must also think that rammus should excel into a 4-5 man AP team. After all, every champ should be allowed to be meta right?

rtbf906614565 votes

Want vayne to stop being meta? Nerf tanks until you don't have tank top, jungle and support.

Vayne is an anti-tank adc. Her entire kit is meant to melt tanks and not much else, so without her target audience no reason to play her over say miss fortune or Caitlym

Hahahahyena1 votes

nerf tanks so vayne can 1 shot them just like every other champion in the game?

Daddy Ants4 votes

{quoted}

nerf tanks so vayne can 1 shot them just like every other champion in the game?

She doesn't 1 shot squishies anymore since the Q crit removal.

Meanwhile item 3147 MissFortune

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

No she threeshots them. Not much better considering 2.5 AS.

Daddy Ants6 votes

{quoted}

No she threeshots them. Not much better considering 2.5 AS.

Does she?

Feel free to point out where a tank got 3 shot in the following clips.

https://streamable.com/hmb3g - This clip I'm fed and have a item 3033 https://streamable.com/4y7ck https://streamable.com/p822q

{quoted}

I logged in to say this cause no one ever talks about it but vayne has a high winrate cause castor ADCs MissFortune Ezreal took a recking with the intentional and UN-intentional nerfs. But then we would complain that item 3147 shoudn't be bursting squishies. I think squishies just dont like being squished.[sg-ahri-2]

Ezreal and MF are still bullshit.

The nerfs tickled them.

T4underbolt5 votes

First you said she doesnt oneshots squishies. The guy responded to that statement not tank one. And he is right becuase she does 2-3 shot squishies. And about tanks. Kiting as vayne is not even hard. With basic knowledge about positioning and few hours of practice you can outkite every tank as vanye with ease.

rtbf906614561 votes

Why would you play a late game tank melting adc when you can just play draven who one shots squishies if there are no tanks?

Hahahahyena1 votes

invisibility, mobility, doesnt need to catch axes to be useful

rtbf906614561 votes

You don't need those when you one shot every squishy, vayne needs three autos for that

Hahahahyena2 votes

you do in this shitty 1 shot meta. if you cant be seen you cant get 1 shot, you cant get 1 shot if they cant catch you, and you arent prone to getting 1 shot when the entire team knows where youre walking so you can pick up your main damage dealing axe that everyone in the game can see where it lands.

Dryditch4 votes

I'm sorry... did you say tanks in the jungle?

Of the top 10 champions being played in the jungle, two are tanks, and only one of them is actually building tank items.

Lee Sin, Kha, Kayn, J4 (who's taking electrocute and going full AD), Shyvana, Rengar, Evelynn, Yi, Xin Zhao, and finally Rammus, whose play rate is .11% higher than Sejuani's.

It's assassins in the JG. Tanks are top lane where they belong, and supports are either tanks or enchanters right now.

Thresh, Leona, Blitz, Janna, Lulu, Nami, Alistar, Morgana, Raka, and Rakan.

It's 5 and 5 in the top 10 support champs. You're as likely to have a tank as you are to have an enchanter/healer in your games.

LuxannaVeritas3 votes

Ouch. I agree with your jungler point, but as a statistic major AND a support main I might have to correct you on your support logic.

What you're claiming WOULD be true... if all of the supports had the same pick rate. Also I don't know what site you're using, but that's not the same 10 champions I see at the top of pick rate.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you might've proven your point on your own, but didn't post your evidence in your comment. On the site you're using, could you add up the pick rates of the 4 tanks, and compare it to the sum of the pick rates of the 6 enchanters? On my site, the top 4 tanks are 20% more likely to be played than the top 6 enchanters. (but the percentages on this site don't add up to 100% so I'm not confident in that analysis.)

Also, according to my site, 11 of the top 13 highest win rate supports are tanks. As much as I want to say that Lulu is THE actual meta, the truth is, engage tanks are the support meta. This doesn't factor into play rate; it just means that tanks work better than enchanters at the moment, which is why I wouldn't be surprised if tanks WERE picked more often.

Saianna4 votes

I think -3ad at level 18 will fix that!

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