"Tanks shouldnt do no damage, they SHOULD KILL ADCS"

Reformedfindlay·Feb 3, 2018·92 votes·6,122 views

OK fine, tanks shouldnt do no damage, they should be threatening at least to defenceless squishies.

But if thats the case, why the fuck has riot injected so much fucking %hp damage into tanks which ends up fucking bruisers 10x harder than squishies?

Chogath is literally unkillable to almost any bruiser and wins trades on E alone (didnt have %maxhp on e before rework)

Ornn has a spammable 10+% max hp burn (new champ)

Shen has %max hp on his sword (didnt have before rework)

Poppy reworked Q kept the % max hp, allowed it to proc twice, and removed its damage cap

Oh and this one is going to be a lot of fun, since riot considers mega gnar a tank, im going to touch upon gnar regardless of form. Gnar has 3 instances of %max hp damage, and in his mega gnar form, he has asinine AD ratios. This champ is just all around retarded so gl on fixing his lane phase riot (as they promised).

209 Comments

Cowgirl EdFeb 3, 201873 votes

a real life tank does a lot of damage though

ReformedfindlayFeb 3, 201860 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiss Kiss Kiss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7YZEFbf0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-02-03T16:36:21.268+0000)

a real life tank does a lot of damage though

A real life tank also runs on gas, has limited ammo, needs to be operated by a crew, and is near useless against most things that fly and have explosive ordnance. Whats the point here?

Evil Bisex PlantFeb 3, 201820 votes

{quoted}

A real life tank also runs on gas, has limited ammo, needs to be operated by a crew, and is near useless against most things that fly and have explosive ordnance. Whats the point here?

The point is we should make every tank drink gasoline - at least in lore. Besides, look at Cho's model and animation, that thing is definitely operated by a crew.

Tails9016Feb 3, 20188 votes

The crew grows as he gains stacks.

RocketRelmFeb 4, 20184 votes

Cho gath is operated by minions as a Mega Super minion.

I can get behind this lore update.

no to toxicFeb 3, 201819 votes

I bet your country doesn`t make tanks out of rusty metal and spit

Reverent WrathFeb 3, 20182 votes

Most run on diesel actually...

MuffledGarbageFeb 3, 20181 votes

wait isn't diesel a form of gas tho?

wasn't it like highly concentrated er somethin?

I forgot tbh

Pierce The VealFeb 3, 20186 votes

{quoted}

wait isn't diesel a form of gas tho?

wasn't it like highly concentrated er somethin?

I forgot tbh

Nope.

They're both petroleum derivatives, but diesel is chemically different from gasoline.

In reality both are mixures of many chemicals with similar chemical properties. Gasoline is composed of hydrocarbons with chain lengths of 4 or 12.

While diesel focuses on 75% saturated hydrocarbons and 25% aromatic compounds. There is some overlap in contents between gasoline and diesel, but mostly they are different. The range of carbons in compounds that compose diesel are 10 to 15 long carbon chains.

All in all they focus on different chemical properties and are almost entirely chemically different. It's not a matter of concentration, especially considering it's not really like you can have less concentrated petroleum. Petroleum is already a mixture of tons of chemicals that dissolve eachother in different ways, and both the solvent and the solute are necessary components of petrol— adding more solvent doesn't make it just less concentrated, it makes it significantly different. So in the case of diesel and gasoline especially, it's a matter of chemical composition

Z3SleeperFeb 3, 20186 votes

Real tanks also sit in the back line and function as artillery mages.

Oh wait a second... ran by a crew? Durability of a tank? Hits like a tank? Sits in the back line?

KogMaw

LordGeovanniFeb 4, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiss Kiss Kiss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7YZEFbf0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-02-03T16:36:21.268+0000)

a real life tank does a lot of damage though

so do tanks in mmos where the class inspiration is taken from

BALDG1VEN BOOMERFeb 3, 201832 votes

I remember in season 5 there was a discussion about the concerning increase of % health damage, now look where we are lol

PheobosFeb 3, 201820 votes

I agree with you on that cho'gath's health dammage on e is unneassesairy. But in the case of shen, keep in mind that its basicly his only dammaging abillity (his taunt does dammage, but you're not winning a fight with the dammage that it does), with the health dammage only applying if his spirit sword went through a champion.

Mokuto BunshiFeb 3, 20183 votes

actually its BONUS %health dmg if it passive through a champ, he still gets a base of:

5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 (+ 2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 / 4% (+ 1.5% per 100 AP) of target's maximum health)

-Wiki

Ahri BakaFeb 3, 201816 votes

That's why I feel empty as a mages main , Adc are broken because Tanks are broken , the only way to kill tanks is with an adc , but a mage barely kills an adc and does 0 damage against tanks , what do we get from all of that ?

Evil Bisex PlantFeb 3, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hikari Sakata,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7YZEFbf0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-02-03T16:55:19.157+0000)

That's why I feel empty as a mages main , Adc are broken because Tanks are broken , the only way to kill tanks is with an adc , but a mage barely kills an adc and does 0 damage against tanks , what do we get from all of that ?

We have the satisfaction of having to hit skillshots and through this satisfaction we gain elo.

AirKingNeoFeb 3, 201810 votes

What? Mages are really strong with the lack of MR for everyone that they deal near true damage.

Also you're talking about supports blocking your damage.

Ahri BakaFeb 3, 20188 votes

{quoted}

What? Mages are really strong with the lack of MR for everyone that they deal near true damage.

Also you're talking about supports blocking your damage.

Lack of mr ? then what is item 3155 ? Nullifying orb ? Supports can block my damage , that's true but I'm talking about tanks who builds item 3065 mages can be useful but in late game , games are snowbally that are ending at the 20th minute mostly , I barely buy item 3165 item 3020 that time

AirKingNeoFeb 3, 20182 votes

Tanks don't buy Visage. They buy Adaptive Helm. Plus, it's no shit tanks won't ever be taking near true damage.

Almost no one takes Null Orb, especially if top lane. Hexdrinker doesn't scale at all and isn't good by 20 minutes.

ArakadiaFeb 3, 20183 votes

Bruisers, tanks, the majority of supports, assassins, and mages all have pretty easy access to mitigating magic damage.

AirKingNeoFeb 3, 20185 votes

Bruisers can mitigate magic damage well when their first three items don't have any MR?

ArakadiaFeb 4, 20181 votes

All bruisers build the same three items? Besides there are multiple runes from multiple trees that can mitigate magic damage well.

AirKingNeoFeb 4, 20184 votes

Yes, they do. Trinity or Cleaver, Titanic, Sterak's, and Ninja Tabi.

No MR.

HibekiFeb 4, 20182 votes

Nullifying orb is a joke and you know it

Ahri BakaFeb 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Nullifying orb is a joke and you know it

It's not , it's pretty strong in early , especially when it's on an ad champion with Hexdrinker also Playing against Zoe Annie and few other champions who will take Nullifying orb instead of manaflow because their mana costs are cheap , is unbearable , I usually play Lux Ahri , and it's pretty bad for me to play against champions who got Nullifying orb

HibekiFeb 4, 20183 votes

Nullifying orb if i had to guess has maybe a 5% use rate, because manaflow band and ultimate hat are just fucking amazing.

And even then its a whopping like 75 health.

Champions who 'do badly against nullifying orb' just arent that great alltogether right now and you are just looking for a scapegoat

chipndip1Feb 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hikari Sakata,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7YZEFbf0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-02-03T16:55:19.157+0000)

That's why I feel empty as a mages main , Adc are broken because Tanks are broken , the only way to kill tanks is with an adc , but a mage barely kills an adc and does 0 damage against tanks , what do we get from all of that ?

Meanwhile Zoe

I like Zoe as she is, but mage players aren't "unable to kill marksmen".

Ahri BakaFeb 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile

I like Zoe as she is, but mage players aren't "unable to kill marksmen".

Mages can kill an adc , but hardly , and they need to hit all skillshots , while an adc can get qss and leave Lux to finish her off I'm not talking about Malzahar , I'm talking about mages like Lux Ahri Lissandra you can't kill someone in full combo in early which makes you have to wait 7 seconds for cool downs , that would be too much time for an adc to kill you , for example meeting a Vayne while trying to roam

AirKingNeoFeb 3, 20185 votes

Lux is shitty and won't be viable.

Ahri has no damage.

Lissandre is all base damage and a lane bully, but also isn't viable right now nor should be until she stops invalidating melees.

AR URFFeb 3, 201810 votes

Can people stop the nerative that tanks don't do dmg. If you want to talk about some of the old tanks like Alistar Zac etc then i'd agree, but Galio Ornn Maokai are a problem that top lane juggernauts are having a hard time against. I miss the days when you'd commonly see Darius Fiora Kayle Olaf in the top lane.

Pika FoxFeb 3, 20187 votes

Olaf is one of the best top laners atm in high level play in certain regions, if not the best.

Diamond2KappaFeb 3, 20183 votes

so are camille fiora kled riven rengar and basically no tanks kek

MorganFreemanBotFeb 3, 20189 votes

{quoted}

OK fine, tanks shouldnt do no damage, they should be threatening at least to defenceless squishies.

But if thats the case, why the fuck has riot injected so much fucking %hp damage into tanks which ends up fucking bruisers 10x harder than squishies?

Chogath is literally unkillable to almost any bruiser and wins trades on E alone (didnt have %maxhp on e before rework)

Ornn has a spammable 10+% max hp burn (new champ)

Shen has %max hp on his sword (didnt have before rework)

Poppy reworked Q kept the % max hp, allowed it to proc twice, and removed its damage cap

Oh and this one is going to be a lot of fun, since riot considers mega gnar a tank, im going to touch upon gnar regardless of form. Gnar has 3 instances of %max hp damage, and in his mega gnar form, he has asinine AD ratios. This champ is just all around retarded so gl on fixing his lane phase riot (as they promised).

Think about Zed's passive.

It's kind of scary, scaling upto.. 10% ( I think?) of max health at most. That's around 200 extra damage late game. Early game it's 6%, which against most non tanks / non bruiser is sub 60 damage for a long time.

Now imagine Zed's passive was a scaling number. Let's say it starts at 50 extra damage. Not unreasonable, but almost doubling the burst it provides against squishy targets. Let's say that it scales at the same rate, hitting the 200 mark when his ideal targets are still 500-700 hp off of the 2k mark where he usually earns that. This would cause a marginal drop in Zed's effectiveness against tanks, but be a gigantic buff to his threat against squishies. I doubt anyone wants that.

Riot has discussed % health damage before.

Basically, you give % health when you want a champion / ability to have non-neglible damage throughout the entire game; but you also don't want "non neglible damage" to be bursty / capable of blowing up squishies. It performs the results, and also gives the champion a little more target flexibility; making it so they're not totally worthless against certain things.

Cho is a little bit of an oddity, but he's really all about the Q. It's easy to dodge but, if it hits you, you probably lost the trade. But most bruisers can laugh him into the grave pretty easily if they avoid it, at least before late game.

6thSagePathFeb 3, 20183 votes

okay but that wasnt the point being made. zeds damage is % of the champion under the mark (which is fine) meanwhile. there are tanks like voli and cho who do damage base of their health. so they can go tanky, be hard as fuck to kill and then serious amounts of damage. its another issue with tanks doing large arounts of true damage. cho and garen coming straight to mind.

MorganFreemanBotFeb 3, 20185 votes

{quoted}

okay but that wasnt the point being made. zeds damage is % of the champion under the mark (which is fine) meanwhile. there are tanks like voli and cho who do damage base of their health. so they can go tanky, be hard as fuck to kill and then serious amounts of damage. its another issue with tanks doing large arounts of true damage. cho and garen coming straight to mind.

EDIT: I do not know why part of this is bolded. :(

So, a couple of things.

#1: You didn't understand my point. I'm talking about Zed's passive, while you're countering me with some prattle about his R.

#2: You asked about % health damage and why tanks would have it; so I answered you. % health is to give a champion an appreciable amount of damage for the duration of the game, while also ensuring that damage will never reach the levels of "I hit you with this, you immediately lose all your health". It makes them a damage threat without making them bursty.

#3: Cho is a late game mage-tank carry. He's weird, but one of the good things about league is champion diversity. Yes, he can nuke you for a huge amount with his R, but he has to get into melee range of you to do that.. And given his late game hit box, and his limited gap closing potential, it's not that hard to keep him away from you.

So, let's look at both sides of this. Shen has % health damage on a fairly short cooldown, while Cho has straight up burst on a much longer cooldown.

Both of these are fine. Shen is a long-haul bruiser, who will whack chunks out of your health bar of a period, and punish you for staying near him.. And he also won't have too hard a time getting near you. Cho, on the other hand, will have a rough time closing the gap. When he does one single person will have a VERY bad day, after which he's a lot less dangerous.

AS I LAY FEEDINGFeb 3, 20189 votes

Well Shen was (you be the judge) supposed to be a anti tank duelist. And Shen is a mix between a tank and a bruiser since he can build Hydra/Steraks. Shen's dmg falls of around lvl 6 if he dont build hydra. For defending Shen more, atleast Shen got cooldowns compared to the other tanks. The Q nerf was a good nerf though. Ornn is insane 31% dmg on a very low cooldown and he maxes CDR. like wtf are the balance team smoking. Noone likes playing tanks (i only like playing shen as a tank), since noone plays them riots overbuffs them. Didnt realize cho had %dmg on his E, jesus christ he got enough dmg and cc. These "tanks" outtrades you and outsustains you. So much "fun".

SirLapseFeb 4, 20182 votes

Cho actually had no way of trading with people outside of really high mana cost abilities, and tank Cho was unviable for the longest time. The fact that Gargoyle Stoneplate is an item is what really kicked him over the edge with the oneshot ability from tank ratios. He's literally the only tank in the game capable of oneshotting ADCs while building only tank items.

He still has the same weaknesses of being kited, rather average laning phase (even with his E), and extremely high reliance of not getting denied CS. Were he ever nerfed back to his original state, I'd just pick Teemo and smash him with pure autos since he HAS to hit me with Q just to farm or win a trade. I don't think the HP ratio on Cho R should be as high as it is, but other than that I'm pretty fine with him as a champion in lane. His silence was never easily balanced and we'll continue seeing him picked based on if his silence is viable or not, it's difficult for me to believe that Riot doesn't want to accept this.

SomeStarsFeb 3, 20187 votes

chogath is a juggernaut (tanky and heavy damage but no engage or disengage)

but other then that you make a great point with ornn and shen

ReformedfindlayFeb 3, 201818 votes

{quoted}

chogath is a juggernaut (tanky and heavy damage but no engage or disengage)

but other then that you make a great point with ornn and shen

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

Chogath does not belong to the juggernaut class. Hes a "unique" playstyle turned broken after his mini rework which was really just a gigantic fucking buff especially when paired with gargoyles introduction

SomeStarsFeb 3, 201810 votes

that is like saying zilean and fiddlesticks aren't a mage, and quinn isn't a marksmen

just because they didn't perfectly fit into a certain category doesn't mean they don't deserve to be balanced around what they can be most easily described as. an AP juggernaut

besides cho'gath only has around a 48-51% win rate depending on the lane you play him in. he has very telegraphed abilities so if you think he is "broken" you probably just don't know how to play against him.

Zero Skill TankFeb 3, 201817 votes

that is like saying zilean and fiddlesticks aren't a mage

They play nothing like mages.

SomeStarsFeb 3, 201813 votes

how is a mage supposed to be played?

mage is one of the most vague classes in the game especially with new champions we have mages that use there whole kit to obliterate one person and have decent utlity like veigar or lissandra, we have more artillery mages who burst people from across the screen like xerath and vel'koz, and we have zoe who really changed the entire definition of the class as a whole with one main damage ability unlike any other mage and she is considered a mage

there are to many mage play styles to say a certain one isn't a style of his own or if they are part of a small group of play styles

Hong Kong AnnieFeb 3, 20187 votes

Tanks should do damage though. In any one on one situation a tank should be a threat. If a tank doesn't have kill pressure on another tank then top lane becomes a no interaction farm fest. And in a teamfight if the tank can't walk through the rest of a team to the squishy and kill them then nobody would bother attacking them, which would make them actually worthless.

Yes it sucks that this makes tanks feel actually unbeatable to bruisers. But a bruisers strength is that they have a much easier time getting to the back line, and on their own are a much bigger threat to squishies.

Tychusfindlay918Feb 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wayward Son,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7YZEFbf0,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-02-03T18:30:52.985+0000)

Yes it sucks that this makes tanks feel actually unbeatable to bruisers. But a bruisers strength is that they have a much easier time getting to the back line, and on their own are a much bigger threat to squishies.

You can't be fucking serious. There's no way you truly believe that.

Hong Kong AnnieFeb 3, 20184 votes

Relative to a tank they do.

Auz the RipperFeb 3, 20184 votes

There’s two stated reasons riot likes % max Hp:

it’s target agnostic, so it allows the tank to deal with anyone equally whereas flat damage would make them best against squishes just by default. You could definitely argue that’s not the best balance decision, but it’s not like it’s the worst one they’ve ever made.
it generally scales mostly off of the target’s stats rather than your own, so when the target is farther behind you they’ll take less damage and when the target is farther ahead of you they’ll take more damage; Hypothetically reducing snowballing.

Tychusfindlay918Feb 3, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7YZEFbf0,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-02-03T18:55:39.574+0000)

There’s two stated reasons riot likes % max Hp:

it’s target agnostic, so it allows the tank to deal with anyone equally whereas flat damage would make them best against squishes just by default. You could definitely argue that’s not the best balance decision, but it’s not like it’s the worst one they’ve ever made.

it generally scales mostly off of the target’s stats rather than your own, so when the target is farther behind you they’ll take less damage and when the target is farther ahead of you they’ll take more damage; Hypothetically reducing snowballing.

It's NOT target agnostic though, that's the problem.

20% of 3000 isn't the same as 20% of 1000. They think it's target agnostic because the bars go down the same regardless, but the reality is that tanks are getting SO MUCH FREE damage onto health stackers than they are getting onto squishy targets.

Auz the RipperFeb 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It's NOT target agnostic though, that's the problem.

20% of 3000 isn't the same as 20% of 1000. They think it's target agnostic because the bars go down the same regardless, but the reality is that tanks are getting SO MUCH FREE damage onto health stackers than they are getting onto squishy targets.

That’s... exactly what target agnostic means. That it has the same effectiveness against any target, yes the health stack is losing more health but both the health stacker and the squishy are dying at the exact same rate from it

LocrìanFeb 3, 20183 votes

To address 2 of your points:

"why the fuck has riot injected so much fucking %hp damage into tanks" -- Lane phase. Tanks have been given %hp damage because they lane against other tanks. It's stupid, yes, but that's the reason.

" Gnar has 3 instances of %max hp damage" -- He only has 2. One of which scales off of his HP.

Now for my input on the situation:

I think the design philosophy that everyone has to do damage is stupid. The community clamored for it, so Riot gave it to them.. But why in the hell should someone who, by design, lives longer than a squishier character, do significant damage? They should disrupt the enemy carries by some other means.

When Leona was released, Riot explained that she wouldn't do much damage, but would fill her tank role by having semi-spammable disruption abilities. For a long time Nautilus was a top pick not because of his damage, but because he has an ungodly amount of CC. Before Mao's rework, he was popular because of his CC. Obviously there are other reasons; Mao and Naut both had/have great wave clear for sidelane pushing, and Mao could reduce damage taken by his team. But tanks should fit those design patterns more.. Disrupt, not kill.

RalanrFeb 4, 20184 votes

The problem is that "disrupt not kill" works fine if you're primarily a support tank. Top lane and jungle tanks need killing power to move at viable speeds or properly trade with opponents.

Mao was popular because of his CC, ult, and his damage output.