Fighters are officially dead - potential solution

HateDaddy··95 votes·6,081 views

-If you want to see my suggestions instead of reading the all the stuff at the top; scroll down to the second section-

Fighters have basically be extinct since the preseason patch. Quite frankly, there are so many reasons why that it's hard to keep track of. Many of the problems that were causing them to be pushed out if the meta have been solved, like Quinn being way too oppressive in solo lane against melees (she still is honestly. I'll briefly go over a few of their problems.

•Ranged ADCs have too many safety nets

It's bad enough that supports like Braum, Alistar, Janna and Thresh make it impossible to stay on top of an ADC. Well maybe not bad, in many situations, their job is to peel. But ADCs have too much safety on their own. Many of them are blessed with either mobility or long range. In either case, getting on top of them in the first place as a melee is impossible. So what's the problem outside of this? Let's go over it:

•Mercurial Scimitar/QSS:

QSS as an investment into a cleanse is a fair trade off. But Mercurial is still way too good of an item that it's still an absolutely must have. It has been nerfed and it's drop in power has made it bad to get it as a third item, sometimes second item. But regardless it's existence causes trouble.

•Steraks shield needs to be melee only:

On occasion, I'm still seeing some ADCs get this (mostly Kog and Graves but still). This was an awesome item last season for bruisers but it's shown that ADCs still abuse it. ADCs have the best defensive steroid in the game, range, they shouldn't have access to the defensive power steraks has. I understand how it works and how it [b]shouldn't[/b] be a good buy on ADCs but the fact remains, it still is.

•Maw is still god tier on drain tanking ADCs:

Lifegrip needs to be half effective on ranged. ADCs already build some form of lifesteal, they shouldn't be able abuse this.

•Graves still exists:

Graves rework was a mistake. He invalidates melees in lane and outperforms them in every single way as a duelist, drain tank the ability to blow up squishies while still having insane DPS plus one of the best defensive steroids in the game - all of this while still being ranged.

•Black Cleaver lost too much HP:

self explanatory.

•Deadmans was over-nerfed:

self explanatory.

Now, I'm going to get into the next big problem for melees, not tanks, but bruisers and light fighters (and it's why most light fighters resort to one damage item + full tank after because it's the only way they can survive).

With the Mage rework, many mages are starting to be played in both solo lanes again. That's fine, mages have been pretty weak lately and a small rework was definitely needed for many (and obviously larger reworks for others). Their itemization was still stale and a change to that was a nice change of pace. But keep in mind, mages are more anti-melee than ranged ADCs are because mages are still ranged while many of them have hard-CC, some having several forms of it. In conjunction with this, those same mages with hard cc also typically have soft cc and this all comes from range, making it hard for a melee to be in range of them and more importantly, stay in range of them on the first place. I'm not saying mages shouldn't have this, utility is what separates them from being immobile assassins. But regardless, it's still extremely anti melee and it makes the existence of fighters rather non existence.

Truth be told, the amounts of hard CC in this game since season 2 has tripled. Quadrupled. Gotten really big. You get the point. Since then, tenacity, which is the only way anyone can deal with hard cc short of being unable to be targeted (die fizz), tenacity has only gotten weaker by never really being updated in anyway to keep up with all the hard-cc (and soft cc as well) in this game. And many of these spells are also 2+ second cc's, making them and their ability to be stacked on a single target with no diminishing returns to be even more of a problem.


So these are the problems. I now offer what i feel would be very good, non abusive solution, or well, a few solutions.

  1. Increase the tenacity on Mercs. Increase it to 40% for melees, remaining at 30% for ranged.

This is probably the most simple of solutions but it's also the most potentially abusive one. With the abundance of hard CC in this game from all fronts, I don't think this would be a bad change. But 40% tenacity is still pretty huge, with the tenacity mastery, I believe this would bring your tenacity to 44% (I didn't actually calculate this FYI, just a guesstimation). That's nearly 50% crowd control reduction, I'm sure we won't to go this route as straight reduction with no gameplay is rather lacking and likely a very frustrating outcome for the one applying the CC.

This is why I think the next solution would be better because raw, flat tenacity is dangerous.

  1. make a form of tenacity that increases from x% to y% based on the amount of CC a single target is absorbing. This would likely be a keystone mastery (maybe you can replace this with storm raiders) because I feel it's too abusive as an item. Maybe not, who knows. But it would also be a mastery a fighter would consider taking over Grasp of the undying, making room for another mastery for melee top laners. Naturally, I would make this less effective for ranged champions.

If this wasn't clear, I'll give an example.

Let's say its new Stormraiders. Jax takes it. Here's how it'd work: Jax would get cc'd. Upon the next form of CC absorbed by Jax in the next 5 seconds, Jax would have increased tenacity of resistance to crowd control by a certain percent. This would stack up to say, 3-5 times and naturally you'd tune the numbers accordingly so this isn't obscenely broken.

The goal with this? One of the most frustrating things as a fighter is people just throwing out cc at you because you exist and getting chain cc'd into oblivion. It takes little to no effort for the enemy to do this, in fact because of all the cc that exists in this game, it's a very low decision making point for many enemies. This mastery would make the power of stacking hard CC on one champion a bit weaker and less frustrating for them. I wouldn't make the numbers too high because tenacity still exists but I'd make it good enough to make someone getting chain cc'd actually able to move. You'd be using this as your keystone so it's a big investment, which is why I wouldn't make it an item.

I know what you're thinking. "But HateDaddy, what about irelia? She'd abuse this so hard!" You're right and you know what? Fuck irelia. Can we please gut her damn passive and rework her so tenacity can't be complete shit? Let's not pretend irelia is well designed. We shouldn't allow one single outlier to make that much of a difference. Give her a new passive, name it Irelias Fervor (for each time someone says nerf irelia, morello is cursed to 1 year of nerf irelia memes in his house as wallpaper).

All jokes aside, I think this is a positive change for relatively immobile fighters and even mobile ones. Mobility is at an all time high, just being mobile isn't good enough anymore for fighters not named Jarvan or Lee Sin. I think this also makes crowd control reduction an interesting mechanic instead of being just a bland number with a bland outcome.

as always, thanks for reading friends.

P.S holy crap is wrote all of this? No tl;dr, I don't do tl;dr's.

183 Comments

Irelia Bot31 votes

Sterak's just needs the shield based on bonus health.

HateDaddy5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsObwH1M,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-05-06T14:15:17.610+0000)

Sterak's just needs the shield based on bonus health.

Solid idea

Critmaster Garen23 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsObwH1M,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-05-06T14:15:17.610+0000)

Sterak's just needs the shield based on bonus health.

give it warmogs health threshold.

its an item designed for health stackers. giving the shield at 3k max health and upwards removes already every champ who bought it as his single defensive item.

the problem with making steraks scale with bonus health means, riot would balance the values around champs like sion and chogath, who can stack really large amounts.

meaning in the end the shield would probably still end up weaker on fighters who get around 3.5k to 4k health than now.

Irelia Bot1 votes

3000 is a bit much for it.

But if it was 50% of bonus health that would make a 500 bonus health graves only get a shield for 250 while that 2000 bonus health Darius would get a shield for 1000.

It would not be saying graves can't get it but would be making it far less effective if he were to get it.

OyddAWqJ5r4 votes

Like he said, bonus health would create atrocious numbers. Sion with it? 3500 bonus health (yes that is normal) for a 1750 health shield.

The reason they keep it as total is so that it can be more equally effective on all bruisers rather than okay on most bruisers and insane on the health stacking poster-boys.

Keeping it total and adding a threshold, however, allows them to keep the much more balanced total ratio.

ZT Xperimentor20 votes

{quoted}

Ranged ADCs have too many safety nets

Bloody right on that!

{quoted}

Steraks shield needs to be melee only:

Along with a couple other item's I'd say (iceborn gauntlet, titanic hydra, ext).

{quoted}

  1. Increase the tenacity on Mercs. Increase it to 40% for melees, remaining at 30% for ranged.

I agree entirely there; though I'd like more tenacity options available (moonflair spellblade & zephyr), I think it'd be fine as long as the same stipulation applied.

{quoted}

P.S holy crap is wrote all of this? No tl;dr, I don't do tl;dr's.

Pffhaha, wasn't expecting that.

Noam Braumsky4 votes

I still don't understand why Zephyr was removed. Is not being bought a lot that detrimental to the game?

Also, item 3748 is already melee only I think. I'm not sure about Iceborn, since it's really just Ezreal that I see building it. Maybe if we could give more incentive for the guy to go item 3078 or just not get the thing in the first place.

The Bíg Ticket16 votes

Why are you even trying homie? Riot doesn't care about melee champions being viable unless they are flashy. And the low elo community of the boards here consists of mage and adc mains who believe Sona is weak and needs buffs while Darius and Garen are the best champions in the world and must ban.

Riot doing everything they can to please these kids and make sure none of the "toxic op bruisers" is ever viable. We can't have Jax or Nasus or whoever jumping into the enemy team using all their spells and making themselves as vulnerable as it gets to try to take out an enemy carry but Lucian, Caitlyn, etc...rightclicking me from 550+ range or Lux and Xerath throwing their keyboards at me from their own turret with no risk at all, is really fun and ok.

HateDaddy10 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bíg Ticket,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsObwH1M,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-05-06T14:08:23.137+0000)

Why are you even trying homie? Riot doesn't care about melee champions being viable unless they are flashy. And the low elo community of the boards here consists of mage and adc mains who believe Sona is weak and needs buffs while Darius and Garen are the best champions in the world and must ban.

Riot doing everything they can to please these kids and make sure none of the "toxic op bruisers" is ever viable. We can't have Jax or Nasus or whoever jumping into the enemy team using all their spells and making themselves as vulnerable as it gets to try to take out an enemy carry but Lucian, Caitlyn, etc...rightclicking me from 550+ range or Lux and Xerath throwing their keyboards at me from their own turret with no risk at all, is really fun and ok.

I've been...away for the last 7 months. I have remarkable patience now.

The Bíg Ticket5 votes

Welcome back then...your thread is spot on but will only get downvotes rofl.

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bíg Ticket,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsObwH1M,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-05-06T14:13:04.986+0000)

Welcome back then...your thread is spot on but will only get downvotes rofl.

Yeah well...

At least I tried lol

Sightless664 votes

What? Dude, do you read the same boards I read? If your post bitches about AD carries and says melees are weak, then people always love it. The only way this shit doesn't get upvoted is if it committed the cardinal boards sin of defending an assassin.

Seriously man, I'm on board with hitting ADCs down a bit (particularly Graves) and helping out some fighters, but let's not pretend that this isn't exactly what the boards circlejerk about everyday. We've got a bigger circlejerk going than the mage mains. The ADC mains are the ones we've all grouped up on, and the only reason they're not the most-hated mains here is because assassin mains still try to post here every once in a while.

Big Lincoln16 votes

+1 for a good write-up

we need to keep melees that aren't tanks in the game. Sick of having to build half-tank whenever I want to play a "light fighter" just so I don't get obliterated the second I walk into a teamfight

tired of ADCs getting everything better than melees

SirSmokeysAlot2 votes

See the problem with your concept of "light fighter" is that you have to get in melee range. Which means either diving through their team to get to squishy back line or fighting their front line. Pretty much you're only two options. Now this is possible, however if you're bad then you will get instant deleted because you built three damage items before even considering a tanky item. It's just not feasible.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

See the problem with your concept of "light fighter" is that you have to get in melee range. Which means either diving through their team to get to squishy back line or fighting their front line. Pretty much you're only two options. Now this is possible, however if you're bad then you will get instant deleted because you built three damage items before even considering a tanky item. It's just not feasible.

There's really only two light fighters in the game currently: yasuo and fiora and fiora built BC/tank and yasuo builds PD/TF + tank atm

SpongebobIsLife2 votes

gangplank, jayce

10Tickler5 votes

Both end up being Poking, Long-Range Burst Champions with Closer-range stuff for finishing blows.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

There's really only two light fighters in the game currently: yasuo and fiora and fiora built BC/tank and yasuo builds PD/TF + tank atm

Riven?!?!?!? Jayce? Gangplank? Jax? Did I mention riven?

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Riven?!?!?!? Jayce? Gangplank? Jax? Did I mention riven?

Riven is a mixture between assassin and bruiser, I suppose light fighter fits her well enough. I don't know what I consider Jayce, he's kinda in a class of his own since he has two forms. All the two form champions are unique in that way. Gangplank can be build full AD/crit or heavy fight with just trinity/ER or trinity/I.E. He's somewhere in between. Jax is the epitome of fighter, builds 2-3 damage items and 2-3 tank items. I would not consider Jax a light fighter.

LankPants2 votes

I don't know what I consider Jayce, he's kinda in a class of his own since he has two forms.

He's a ranged, pokebased caster. His most similar champs are Varus and Nid, not Fiora and Yas.

SlaktarTasken3 votes

{quoted}

He's a ranged, pokebased caster. His most similar champs are Varus and Nid, not Fiora and Yas.

Yah, let's entirely disregard his melee form.

LankPants7 votes

{quoted}

Yah, let's entirely disregard his melee form.

Well, that's what the majority of Jayce players do for the majority of the game.

Voluug133 votes

Yeah, unless all your raned abilities are on cd, you want to disengage (E) or you are extremely ahead, using Jayce's melee form is not a good idea.

Raj Te Lag Comp1 votes

What about Trynd? I usually don't end up buying much of damage reduction on him.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raj Te Lag Comp,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsObwH1M,comment-id=000900000000000100000003,timestamp=2016-05-06T23:26:09.800+0000)

What about Trynd? I usually don't end up buying much of damage reduction on him.

Trynd builds one way: to delete towers. Pure AS/crit/AD. He's never going to teamfight, even with an ult that grants him 6 seconds of invulnerability. He's too easy to pin down and kite.

ImmortalBloodCY5 votes

item 3153+item 3036+Vayne Tank? Where's the tank? Oh he got obliterated by Vayne in 3 hits.

^-- I saw that happen 6 times.

Dunkrius2g1 votes

Not anymore, item 3124 does the job just fine.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Not anymore, item 3124 does the job just fine.

I'm pretty sure rageblade is crap now on melees, takes too long to stack and is way too expensive

Dunkrius2g1 votes

I will agree on that. It just vayne can abuse it quite nicely. I don't know if it will be worth the time to spend 3600 on it for the phantom hit. It is essentially a more tank buster item than a Bortk

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

I will agree on that. It just vayne can abuse it quite nicely. I don't know if it will be worth the time to spend 3600 on it for the phantom hit. It is essentially a more tank buster item than a Bortk

For 3.6k, she can get better options. It's the recipe that largely makes it an unattractive purchase to her.

Dark Trennow12 votes

There is literally no reason for adcs to continue to get to be the welfare class of this game, their kits are just giant hand out fests in their design. They have more tools and more importantly no drawbacks on those tools. Always keeps them ahead of every other class by a wide margin, even when it shouldn't be the case.

Blåbæret3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Trennow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsObwH1M,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-05-06T14:10:34.310+0000)

There is literally no reason for adcs to continue to get to be the welfare class of this game, their kits are just giant hand out fests in their design. They have more tools and more importantly no drawbacks on those tools. Always keeps them ahead of every other class by a wide margin, even when it shouldn't be the case.

I think some ADCs are fine. Jinx for example has serious drawbacks. Then you have Vayne, Tristana etc. with ridiculous mobility and basically have abilities for every situation. That should be fixed tbh.

HateDaddy9 votes

All the downvotes? Cmon now, there's no way you read it that fast :/

The Bíg Ticket10 votes

Low elo adc and mage mains just downvote without reading.

HateDaddy8 votes

Note: there are some abusive cases of fighters being good currently or recently, but they were basically building full tank because fighter items have been nerfed or used better by other classes.

PDE5 Inhib2 votes

You should probably git gud

HateDaddy11 votes

[{quoted}](name=PDE5 Inhib,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsObwH1M,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-05-06T14:00:15.505+0000)

You should probably git gud

I'm pretty good

PDE5 Inhib2 votes

The fact you think fighters are in a bad spot overall determined that was a lie.

HateDaddy11 votes

[{quoted}](name=PDE5 Inhib,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsObwH1M,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-05-06T14:07:00.882+0000)

The fact you think fighters are in a bad spot overall determined that was a lie.

When was the last time you saw a fighter? All you see is Poppy, Nautilus, Ekko, Maokai, Rammus, Malphite etc. All tanks or Ekko, an assassin building tank. Poppy is the closest thing to a good fighter atm and she's being built full tank.

The Bíg Ticket14 votes

Funny when people who are chilling in Silver V with negative winrate tell others to git gud.

PDE5 Inhib1 votes

A) Silver 4 and still climbing :D B) Positive win rate :D

Funny when business majors think they're intelligent.

HateDaddy10 votes

[{quoted}](name=PDE5 Inhib,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vsObwH1M,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2016-05-06T14:13:33.479+0000)

A) Silver 4 and still climbing :D B) Positive win rate :D

Funny when business majors think they're intelligent.

Good luck on your climb boss (no that's not sarcastic, I sincerely mean it)

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Sterak's Shield being ranged only - No. Jayce, Gnar, and Nidalee all exist. Ranged melee division isn't the answer.

Fighters have been in a bad spot because The Brutalizer was removed from the game. That early game powerful item is very valuable to them.

But! Fighters have gotten a much better Righteous Glory and a 5% damage reduction buff from Herald. They should be fine.

CIickTheLantern1 votes

Wait till the support/tank blows their big CC in lower elo games. In better elo, it is your job o blow their cc so your assassins/backline has an easier job

HateDaddy15 votes

{quoted}

Wait till the support/tank blows their big CC in lower elo games. In better elo, it is your job o blow their cc so your assassins/backline has an easier job

That's a tanks job, a fighter wants to be in the middle of things scuffling. They end up just getting hard cc'd and kited and not doing much but damage soaking. Why play a fighter if you're going to damage soak? It's why fighters split push.

SirSmokeysAlot1 votes

I'm curious, besides Olaf who all would you consider a fighter?

Edit. Don't need to list all, just a few examples would help me understand.

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

I'm curious, besides Olaf who all would you consider a fighter?

Edit. Don't need to list all, just a few examples would help me understand.

Darius, Jax, Nasus, renekton, Garen, Shen (new Shen at least)

Hyperiön2 votes

Nasus, for one, is not a fighter, He goes full tank, and because of his Q, just 2 hits people, and with his Wither, unless they Qss, they won't get away. Darius is meh, easy to shut down since no escapes. Renky is in a good spot, He mobile enough to get to the back line, stun the cc, and have follow up from a mage or support CC. Garen and Shen, also meh at best. But Shen has a slighter edge, because of his utility. The only thing that makes garen somewhat viable, is that fact his Ult deals 1500 true dmg to anyone late game.

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

Nasus, for one, is not a fighter, He goes full tank, and because of his Q, just 2 hits people, and with his Wither, unless they Qss, they won't get away. Darius is meh, easy to shut down since no escapes. Renky is in a good spot, He mobile enough to get to the back line, stun the cc, and have follow up from a mage or support CC. Garen and Shen, also meh at best. But Shen has a slighter edge, because of his utility. The only thing that makes garen somewhat viable, is that fact his Ult deals 1500 true dmg to anyone late game.

Nasus is a fighter that builds tank because he has to. He can fill the tank role as any fighter can, but like most fighters, he's average at best.

Odinakos3 votes

Expanding that, he needs to build tank because he has no mobility and needs better survivabilty to deliver his damage. His Q stacking allows him to forgo damage items beside his sheen one. So he ends with a healthy balance beween survival and damage close to that of other fighters/bruisers.

Moreso he cant be considered as a tank because his lack of heavy cc. Wither alone is nothing compared to what Mao or Naut can bring. And tbh he is worse at being a tank than more damage oriented fighters like Lee or J4.

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