Alright Riot, enough is enough, you dun goof'd hard, give us more bans.

Remlap1223·Sep 25, 2014·3 votes·365 views

I knew it. I felt it in my bones. It turns out I was sadly right. My fears of Garen being the new Dr. Mundo were true. Except unlike Dr. Mundo, Garen gets to take out any champion on the team he wants in a 1v1 trade. I think we've finally reached the point where we are pretty much teed to see an OP champion in our matches now. So can we please get more bans until you (if you actually can) balance these champs? It's been hovering around the point where League has become a game where you ban the OP champs or QQ if you miss one, but now it's finally here. With Morgana, Tristana, Yasuo, Maokai, Fizz, Rengar, and now Garen all ban worthy champions that drastically make the game top heavy, it's time for more bans.

11 Comments

67chromeSep 26, 20142 votes

The banning phase isn't about circumventing the balance team's "mistakes", it's about banning what you don't want to deal with. The purpose isn't anti-OP, it's strategic.

Also - more bans means a longer wait to get into game. The average length of a game of LoL is ~33 minutes, which is something to keep in mind. How many minutes are you willing to wait until getting into game? With matchmaking, the ban phase, pick phase, and loading - you're already looking at a solid ~10 minutes.

Lord Graves IIISep 26, 20142 votes

Great points.

Remlap1223Sep 26, 20141 votes

Far from true. I think it was about around freshly reworked Nidalee where I threw your theory out the window and instead asked what my team didn't want to deal with because there were only about 2 or 3 champions that were detrimental to the health of the game at that point, and they got banned instantly most of the time. Now I HAVE to ban champions otherwise we can pretty much guarantee top/mid/bot is going to be lost (I shouldn't have to be forced into playing Gangplank as a support because Morgana's kit is bloated.)

And yes, while I agree that banning phase is more strategic, I don't think anyone is using it to ban what they don't want to deal with anymore, ok well they do, but then they realize once Yasuo, Morgana, and Nidalee are all in the same game, they realize why they're banned so much. Say what you want about "strategic bans" nothing measures champion health more than the pick and ban rates, and if the champ is either picked in a game or banned, you've got a major red flag that you're looking at something OP.

67chromeSep 26, 20141 votes

once Yasuo, Morgana, and Nidalee are all in the same game, they realize why they're banned so much.

Not really.

Thing is, there's always a group of ~15 must pick/ban champions - around 3 for each lane. I'd say that has a lot more to do with 3 being a solid number to remember and having 3 bans than it does a group of the FotM champions being exceptionally difficult to take down. They mostly demand attention because nobody in their right mind that's trying to play the best is going to settle for the 4th best champion at a given roll, not because there's a valley of power difference between them and the 4th guy.

It's not exactly difficult to win against tryhard compositions with a troll team. Especially if they just try picking the "best" champions while being blind to the strategies and team-compositions the pros actually pick those champions for.

And that's not just my yoloqueue experience talking - you can see oddball picks in the LCS or worlds completely dismantle a 100% meta-approved team. Unicorns of Love ran Poppy in top lane, and ended the game with a Legendary 8/0 Poppy. Most people would say Poppy is a terrible champion, but really - if you know how champions operate, what there strengths and weaknesses are, and how to use them - the weakest champions in LoL can certainly pull out wins against the strongest champions. The difference in power between the weakest champions and strongest ones isn't a lot, and the difference between an average champion and a top-meta pick is very minimal in most cases.

Lord Graves IIISep 25, 20141 votes

What if everyone was just that strong? :3

Im sorry. You might be right. But as an avid fan of Destruction Man Garen I am excited to see these buffs.

And whats wrong with Dr. Mundo?

Except unlike Dr. Mundo, Garen gets to take out any champion on the team he wants in a 1v1 trade.

Dude, Mundo outduels everyone except Jax, Trundle, and maybe Warwick or Nasus in a straight up slugfest (Vayne will beat him in a duel where she can manuver. Garen's passive is better lategame but lategame is where mundo was strong anyway.

How does this at all help Garen with regards to dealing with his weaknesses? Kiteablitity. The need to build damage vs. need to build tank.

Remlap1223Sep 26, 20141 votes

Garen really only needed a slight buff to his passive and some tweaks to his ultimate damage to be back into viability. Instead, what we got was a more stubborn farm bot than Mundo and Nasus combined. You say kitability, I got my butt pounded in going as Quinn top. Literally all Garen has to do is continue Qing until he's away from you, run back to lane, keep farming, build all defense, and mitigate all the damage. Dr. Mundo's damage drops off radically late game. Garen's doesn't. He's still able to 1v1 pretty much anyone melee in laning phase, and now it turns out that not even Quinn can catch him lategame. It's really overboard, and he needs to get nerfed ASAP next patch.

Lord Graves IIISep 26, 20141 votes

From my perspective he was already viable albiet niche and perhaps not playable in challenger.

And his laning was basically untouched.

He is EXACTLY THE SAME AS HE ALRADY WAS until level 11. So how was your lane until level 11 or so? Ya know, when the passive buffs kick in.

Exactly what part made him bullshit? The part where he was exactly the same till level 11? Or the immovable farm bot he becomes once everyone is grouping and skirmishing?

Garen's damage DOES fall off late game unless he builds damage. And if he builds damage, he's tough, but not the unkillable butt pounder you claim. And don't claim the ult doesn't fall off, because you can't point out his ulti and say it is enough damage for a fighter to bring to the table. Everything else falls off and people can build MR.

Meanwhile, mundo still has 300 Attack Damage when his E is up. While building straight tank. That is no runes. No masteries. No items. 310 AD. Even if only on autoattacks, thats not bad for a guy with no attack items.

Remlap1223Sep 26, 20141 votes

The part that he's unkillable after level 11 unless your entire team focuses him is the bullshit. The thing about Garen was that he was good at 1v1ing a champion, but if you kept up the poke, you'd eventually be able to kill him. Now, the instant his passive kicks in, all that harass you just did gets nullified instantly. It's the exact same reason why Volibear is so toxic. You build health, become a god, faceroll the enemy. The only difference was you didn't need Teemo on your team to counter Garen if you applied enough pressure. Now Teemo is the only thing keeping him from turning into the top lane god, which is instantly remedied by banning Teemo. And while I think that nobody is crying over Teemo getting no chance to be played, I don't think we need a Renekton repeat that I think Riot did an almost flawless job fixing. Now it's coming back, but instead of an oversized crocodile locking you in place and hacking you to bits, it's a merry-go-round of death that has way too much nationalism.

Lord Graves IIISep 26, 20141 votes

The part that he's unkillable after level 11 unless your entire team focuses him is the bullshit. He only becomes that hardcore at level 16. I'm starting to think you actually did not read the patch notes.

Hes impossible in lane?, hes too strong in teamfights? He regens too fast? His damage is too high?

What is the problem that wasn't there last patch and why is it that big an issue?

Now, the instant his passive kicks in, all that harass you just did gets nullified instantly.

Being good against harass is kinda the point. But instantly is a strong term. If you don't stop hyperbolizing you will never get through this.

I don't think we need a Renekton repeat

Renekton came to the forefront due to versatility and his inability to lose lane. Garen is strong in lane, but he isn't renekton.

Remlap1223Sep 26, 20141 votes

He only becomes that hardcore at level 16. I'm starting to think you actually did not read the patch notes.

I don't think YOU read the patch notes. The health regen isn't the problem, it's how quick it kicks back on. It used to be that you poke Garen and you had a large window of oppurunity as he Q'd away to catch up to him and keep his passive down. Now due to his freshly bloated passive, that window is non-existent due to his Q's movement speed duration. Like I said, I couldn't catch up to him as QUINN. It further stockpiles once it reaches that ridiculous 2% per second at 4 seconds (how high was the balance team when they greenlit that?) That is Volibear passive levels of stupid. You literally have to build executioner's calling on your champs to counter Garen at that point. Remember how you needed to build Banshee's on Nidalee or else you'd get insta nuked? It's like that except you have to do that or else you'll never kill Garen past 16, and I'd argue 11 in certain situations as well.

Being good against harass is kinda the point. But instantly is a strong term. If you don't stop hyperbolizing you will never get through this.

Hm, I'd say 0.8% of your max health per second if he's at 4K health (which is a little under 40 health per second if your math's ain't so good) is hardly hyperbolizing. I'll use my Quinn top horror story for an example why it's bullshit. I poked Garen, did about 100 damage cuz you obviously tank hard as Garen, and after 10 seconds, Garen was back up to a higher health than what I left him with. The Volibear problem strikes again. That is not a case of "being good against harass" that is a case of "horribly toxic game mechanic." You either do a shit-ton of damage, or you get to tank hard. Not both. Did we not learn from Olaf?

Renekton came to the forefront due to versatility and his inability to lose lane. Garen is strong in lane, but he isn't renekton.

Give it time. Unless you're playing Caitlyn top now, Garen's the new Renekton. Ryze? There's a silence for that. Jax? He never countered Garen. Maokai? Ok, but Maokai isn't exactly what I'd called "balanced" either. When your solution to your balance issue is fight and OP champion with a more OP champion, you have failed as a game designer.

Lord Graves IIISep 26, 20141 votes

Two things.

He does not do a shit ton of damage if he builds straight tank. he does become damn near unkillable, but he doesn't exactly do carry damage. Or even Trundle with a tri-force damage.
Did you seriously just say that Garen's silence lets him beat ryze?
You don't need Executioner's calling to beat him, you need to kill him without him leaving the fight, or kill his team quickly after he leaves. (Garen can't really stop you from taking objectives if he built tank enough to survive your team focusing him for more than a few seconds.

You keep referencing the quinn Horror story. I think you just got trashed by Destruction Man and wanted to go complain on the forums. Everyone loses games. It can even feel like total bullshit when it happens, but barring the level 16 buff, nothing that spectacular was done to Garen. And the level 16 buff just gave him a late game teamfight niche where he had none.