Gonna be honest: I'm looking forwards to the Azir rework, but I'm disappointed something is missing.

HalcyonDweller·Sep 20, 2017·5 votes·545 views

Conquering Sands (Q): All soldiers dash up to a fixed distance in target direction. They move parallel to one another rather than towards the same point.

#Basically this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pq_7GPArxzk/VpYyA5AV-vI/AAAAAAAAA4s/XsDpY2GFaSE/s800-Ic42/equal-vectors-min.png

#Instead of this:

https://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/2915350/314049869/stock-photo-teamwork-and-focus-on-results-in-horizontal-converging-arrows-on-a-white-background-314049869.jpg

_ _ _ _

IMO this would deliver better on the 'commanding soldiers' fantasy since real soldiers drill as a unit, rather than piling into a single point.

Do you think this would work well for Azir? If so, why? If not, why not?

16 Comments

QuephaSep 20, 20172 votes

Azir is already extremely difficult to play which was a contributor to many of his balance issues. This is a far more difficult, far less intuitive command format that also does not at all fit into how Azir wants to use his soldiers.

HalcyonDwellerSep 20, 20171 votes

Fair enough, it just feels really weird to me to have multiple soldiers overlap. Too much like Orianna that way, moving things to a single point of attack.

QuephaSep 20, 20171 votes

You're thinking of his soldiers as something very different than what they are. A commander that wants to spread out their soldiers to cover more area would simply be a completely different champion.

HalcyonDwellerSep 20, 20171 votes

But why shouldn't they be this way? And how do you believe Azir wants to use his soldiers?

Thematically and mechanically it would feel cool to use. Proper placement of soldiers could result in better zones of control.

And limitations could be applied to ranges or methods of control, or even a resource could be added so that it would be balanced.

QuephaSep 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But why shouldn't they be this way?

It's hard to use and doesn't fit how Azir's soldiers work

And how do you believe Azir wants to use his soldiers?

He wants to deal damage with them and when he right-clicks a target all soldiers in range start attacking and more soldiers deal more damage. More damage is better so spreading soldiers out makes no sense.

mechanically it would feel cool to use.

It would feel horrible and clunky to use. The most common use-case of Q is

Soldier is not next to an enemy
move soldier to enemy
begin attacking

The most obvious player input for moving the soldier is to put your mouse on the enemy and press the button. Your proposed method of control means that you actually have to calculate a 2 dimensional vector between your soldier and your desired location then apply that vector to your current position. That's bizarre, imprecise, un-intuitive, and it's one of the most common actions Azir has to perform in a fight so players would constantly be feeling all of that garbage. Players would be calling for your head on a platter if you implemented something like that.

Proper placement of soldiers could result in better zones of control. You mean more zones, not better zones. each individual zone would be weaker.

limitations could be applied to ranges or methods of control, or even a resource could be added so that it would be balanced.

Maybe you could change how his soldiers attack and how they're placed and how they're moved around and what Azir is good and bad at but at that point you might as well also change his model and name and just make it into a new champion and leave Azir alone so the players that spent 100's of hours on Azir just so they could not suck with him don't have all that time and devotion thrown out the window.

HalcyonDwellerSep 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's hard to use and doesn't fit how Azir's soldiers work

He wants to deal damage with them and when he right-clicks a target all soldiers in range start attacking and more soldiers deal more damage. More damage is better so spreading soldiers out makes no sense.

He was designed originally as a DPS mage, right? More damage is better, and I agree with that idea, but only within limits. Burst is not cool on DPS characters. It's part of why his poke is a problem, because he could Q people for way too much health AND dps them afterwards.

I believe that what I'm suggesting here would reward good soldier formations and add skill expression because they would be able to attack the same target if placed correctly, but not if placed poorly or without forethought and planning.

It would feel horrible and clunky to use. The most common use-case of Q is

Soldier is not next to an enemy

move soldier to enemy

begin attacking

The most obvious player input for moving the soldier is to put your mouse on the enemy and press the button. Your proposed method of control means that you actually have to calculate a 2 dimensional vector between your soldier and your desired location then apply that vector to your current position. That's bizarre, imprecise, un-intuitive, and it's one of the most common actions Azir has to perform in a fight so players would constantly be feeling all of that garbage. Players would be calling for your head on a platter if you implemented something like that.

You are right, vector control from Azir's position would be terrible. But I never thought it should work that way. What I'm proposing is something like a Viktor, Rumble, or Taliya like effect, where the vector starts from the ability's point of origin and extends out from there. On first cast, it could center on the soldier nearest his mouse cursor, then aim towards wherever he points his mouse.

You mean more zones, not better zones. each individual zone would be weaker.

No I mean larger zones. But I digress. This would be arguing semantics. yes, when the zones are spread out they would dilute his power, but this would offer the Azir player the choice of clumping soldiers together for more single target damage, or spreading them out for more range to attack in and potentially more AoE damage.

Maybe you could change how his soldiers attack and how they're placed and how they're moved around and what Azir is good and bad at but at that point you might as well also change his model and name and just make it into a new champion and leave Azir alone so the players that spent 100's of hours on Azir just so they could not suck with him don't have all that time and devotion thrown out the window.

Fair enough, I would love to see this on any minion-mancer. I only argue for it on Azir because he already fits this theme and the mechanics exist within his kit already. How would you feel about Azir getting a rebranding and having somebody else be made as an emperor like figure with the mechanics I've proposed here?

QuephaSep 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

How would you feel about Azir getting a rebranding and having somebody else be made as an emperor like figure with the mechanics I've proposed here?

Sounds clunky and awful. Most likely players would just stack all their minions in one spot to functionally work just like Azir but with a worse control mechanism.

HalcyonDwellerSep 20, 20171 votes

Why though?

That sounds more like people refusing to adapt to a change. This change would open up more options. It would be strategic.

QuephaSep 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Why though?

Because 900 damage to kill a target and start a 5v4 power play is magnitudes more valuable than 300 damage on each of three targets who can all back up and recuperate. It's also a much simpler strategy, especially with your bizarre control scheme.

HalcyonDwellerSep 21, 20171 votes

It sounds to me like you want Azir to have burst. If that is the case then we have nothing more to discuss. I do not think Azir should be a burst mage, he was designed to deal DPS, he should be good at that, rather than burst.

QuephaSep 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It sounds to me like you want Azir to have burst.

Then you aren't listening. Whether you're dps or burst, scoring a kill on a target is better than spreading your damage out.

HalcyonDwellerSep 21, 20171 votes

Death is the best cc, yadda yadda. I get it.

I'm fine with that, but it should provide compelling gameplay in the process.

Another user took time to analyze the idea instead of just trying to pick it apart, and thanks to their response I understand that this direction would only have worked if Riot were planning to take Azir in the 'ranged' direction that they tossed in order to preserve his current bag of tricks and unique gameplay.

DrCyanideSep 21, 20172 votes

To be a DPS mage he'd have to have ways to constantly attack a target. This goes against the current design of the soldiers, which are melee (small attack radius) and can't relocate frequently. You can't be DPS if you can only land 2 autos then have to stop attacking for 3 seconds. That's the problem the soliders have, and why the burst pattern works better for them.

To make Azir DPS you'd have to either increase the range of his soldiers (also increasing his zoning potential), slow/ground targets in range so he can get more hits off (which adds a lot of utility), or make his soldiers reposition more frequently (which makes them more like minions, which should have HP bars and die).

Formation advances are an idea that sounds cooler and more effective than it would be in actuality. Battles have been lost by having troops in formation but unable to attack, and it would be the same with Azir.

HalcyonDwellerSep 21, 20172 votes

Who the fk downvoted you? that was well-reasoned and a downright polite response. I upvoted to counter it.

Thanks for this, I didn't think about it that way. And I appreciate you taking the time to analyze the idea instead of just pooh-poo-ing it.

I see what you mean now and it's pretty clear that the formation movements would only be a thing that would have worked if Azir was changed to follow the 'ranged' path that Riot already decided against.

Damn though, that utility with grounding would have been really really cool.

SeralphSep 20, 20171 votes

That would also increase his Shurima Shuffle Range to a large extent.

Imagine this: Soldier A is placed at point A. You move far away, and place Solider B down .

                   If you Q as far as you can in the direction of Soldier A, Solider B will travel at the max Q distance of Azir,
                   but Solidier A (who is already at a far enough distance to begin with) will travel even farther than max Q range since
                   both soldiers must travel with identical vector directions.

                   This would essentially double Azir's range, something that Riot is trying to reduce

HalcyonDwellerSep 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

That would also increase his Shurima Shuffle Range to a large extent.

Gonna be honest I'm not super familiar with the mechanics of the Shuriman Shuffle, but isn't the range limited in that he has to target a soldier within range of the E? I would think that that means his Shuriman Shuffle range would be the same regardless of whether or not soldiers travel to the same point because he would only shuffle to the soldier he targets?

Imagine this: Soldier A is placed at point A. You move far away, and place Solider B down .

                   If you Q as far as you can in the direction of Soldier A, Solider B will travel at the max Q distance of Azir,
                   but Solidier A (who is already at a far enough distance to begin with) will travel even farther than max Q range since
                   both soldiers must travel with identical vector directions.

                   This would essentially double Azir&#x27;s range, something that Riot is trying to reduce

If this is a problem then how about if the range was limited? Make it so that if they reached the edge of the prescribed range then they stop moving, or even dissipate!