Why lee sin avoid all his nerfs?

UdoIkOSc4u·Feb 20, 2015·40 votes·2,278 views

Cause he is lee sin Why is j4 getting nerfed before lee sin? Cause he is lee sin Riot gutted elise for have an oppresive early game so why not lee sin? Cause he is lee sin Why lee sin has so much damage like an assasin with much mobility? Cause he is lee sin Why lee sin has more ms than hecarim? Cause he is lee sin Riot stated that Bruiser that could also be assasin are too overpowered and had to nerf them so why not nerf lee sin? Cause he is lee sin Kassadin getting gutted cause he has to trade samething for his riftwalk nightmare so why not lee sin? Cause he is lee sin and is a nightmare since level1 Kassadin getting nerfed for be a pick/ban in the competitive so why not lee sin since he is a pick ban since s2? cause he is lee sin Many champs have been reworked for have an overloaded kit so why not lee sin? cause he is lee sin

41 Comments

Serge THE GREATFeb 20, 201520 votes

It's been said before, but..

he avoids nerfs because he ward hops away from the nerf bat. And if the bat gets closer, he shouts "HIKKU!" and kicks it away.

What Is SmiteFeb 20, 20158 votes

Then we need a nerf gun

Chaotic ReksFeb 20, 20151 votes

and than he ward hops away.

QuortFeb 20, 20151 votes

No, he Q'ed over the wall to your Krugs. ;3

SleepyLionCubFeb 20, 20155 votes

Lee sin is the Blind monk. He doesnt need to see the nerfs coming. He can hear them, and dodge them.

KaisadiIIaFeb 20, 20159 votes

Like he dodged his whole rework one year ago D:

MetalrichdogFeb 21, 20151 votes

That rework was really bad... I'm just gonna say that right now. What I see for Lee Sin in terms of nerfs, should be hitting him in his scalings and base stats later in the game. I feel that he SHOULD be strong early, but late game, he really should drop off in terms of both AD scalings and a bit in base damage on abilities.

DirewolfiezFeb 21, 20152 votes

So, instead of making it better, they just dropped it completely. Yeah, that's reasonable. Leaving him alone completely should solve all of his problems.

UdoIkOSc4uFeb 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Like he dodged his whole rework one year ago D:

The only rework that got cancelled LOL

Darth Pixy MisaFeb 20, 20154 votes

He learned how to dodge from Jax and Jessie Perring

SolaxoFeb 20, 20153 votes

Because LC$ FLASHY PLAYS

Slamurai JackFeb 20, 20153 votes

They nerfed Lee Sin twice during season 4 and again in 4.20. Enough aleady.

UdoIkOSc4uFeb 20, 201510 votes

{quoted}

They nerfed Lee Sin twice during season 4 and again in 4.20. Enough aleady.

do you call them nerfs? the only true nerfs he recived were in the begin of s3 and when they remove his attack speed reduction

Slamurai JackFeb 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

do you call them nerfs? the only true nerfs he recived were in the begin of s3 and when they remove his attack speed reduction

In 4.5 they changed his W to have a much longer CD if you didn't use it on a champion, which hampered his mobility when jumping to minions or wards. They also changed it so he only gets a shield if he dashes to a champion. They also changed the duration of both the shield and the LS and spell vamp bonus from 5 seconds to 4 seconds. In 4.13 they buffed his health regen slightly while lowering his shield duration again, this time from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. This was also the patch where they removed the AS slow on his E, which was an enormous nerf to his early game dueling as well as his late game utility. In 4.20 They lowered his base armor from 26 to 24, and also cut his health regen by a solid 20%.

Keep pretending they never nerf Lee Sin. They've nerfed him multiple times just in the last year, and those nerfs have made him a shadow of what he once was, particularly the removal of his AS slow.

UdoIkOSc4uFeb 20, 20155 votes

{quoted}

In 4.5 they changed his W to have a much longer CD if you didn't use it on a champion, which hampered his mobility when jumping to minions or wards. They also changed it so he only gets a shield if he dashes to a champion. They also changed the duration of both the shield and the LS and spell vamp bonus from 5 seconds to 4 seconds. In 4.13 they buffed his health regen slightly while lowering his shield duration again, this time from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. This was also the patch where they removed the AS slow on his E, which was an enormous nerf to his early game dueling as well as his late game utility. In 4.20 They lowered his base armor from 26 to 24, and also cut his health regen by a solid 20%.

Keep pretending they never nerf Lee Sin. They've nerfed him multiple times just in the last year, and those nerfs have made him a shadow of what he once was, particularly the removal of his AS slow.

and he is still op and he is not really a shadow of what he once was if you want to look at those kind of things look at urgot,alistar shaco ecc those are nerfed champion in a meaningful way

Slamurai JackFeb 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

and he is still op and he is not really a shadow of what he once was if you want to look at those kind of things look at urgot,alistar shaco ecc those are nerfed champion in a meaningful way

Yes, Lee Sin is so OP that he does everything; everything except win games. Lee Sin is easily the worst "freelo" champ I've ever seen. I leave Lee open when I do the bans in the hopes that the enemy will pick him. I cringe whenever someone on my team picks him. I cannot think of an early game oriented jungler that has a harder time actually snowballing his lanes than Lee Sin. Give me Shaco, Pantheon, Vi, J4, Fiddles, Hecarim, Amumu, Maokai, Xin, Naut, Nidalee, Sejuani, Reksai, Sion, Udyr, Zac, Rammus, or Volibear over Lee any day if you actually want to pull off an early gank. Literally, the only way to die to an early Lee gank is either to massively overextend, or to only mildly overextend while playing a champ with no escape. And Lee falls off harder than all of those champs as well. And if you manage to not feed Lee horrendously during laning phase? He does no damage mid game and can't tank anything because he failed to snowball.

KaisadiIIaFeb 20, 20156 votes

Considering the (lack of) strength in his shield, the enemy will take it out before 2 seconds have passed, so we can say: They buffed his health regen and they reduced the duration of some runes wheeling around him when he dash to a ward for free.

BetaDude40Feb 20, 20153 votes

Those were tiny love taps that did practically nothing. We need something addressed. At the very least, hit his damage.

KaisadiIIaFeb 20, 20159 votes

I don't know why people still plays Lee when he lost his main strength: Placing shields to wards.

KeltulisFeb 20, 20152 votes

He's Riot's poster child... That's the stupid fucking reason why.

SmokingPuffinFeb 20, 20152 votes

Why is j4 getting nerfed before lee sin?

J4 is both stronger and easier to play than Lee. He's a more urgent balance problem for more of the playerbase.

Riot stated that Bruiser that could also be assasin are too overpowered and had to nerf them so why not nerf lee sin? Cause he is lee sin

Pretty much.

Many champs have been reworked for have an overloaded kit so why not lee sin?

I don't think this is actually true. Riot is heavily prioritizing reworks for older kits, and those kits are tending to get more stuff in the rework. For example, look at new Sion versus old Sion; new Sion has way more mechanics in his kit than old Sion ever did.

KaisadiIIaFeb 20, 20151 votes

I can't see how Jarvan is stronger than Lee, sincerely.

SmokingPuffinFeb 20, 20151 votes

Statistically speaking, Jarvan is more contested and more winning than Lee Sin across all of the main regions (NA, EU, KR, CN). Jarvan is also much better for solo queue, if you care for that sort of thing.

Qualitatively, the main thing Jarvan has on Lee is his extremely reliable initiation. He's similar to Lee on early game pressure, but his teamfight is quite strong.

UdoIkOSc4uFeb 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Statistically speaking, Jarvan is more contested and more winning than Lee Sin across all of the main regions (NA, EU, KR, CN). Jarvan is also much better for solo queue, if you care for that sort of thing.

Qualitatively, the main thing Jarvan has on Lee is his extremely reliable initiation. He's similar to Lee on early game pressure, but his teamfight is quite strong.

lee has a better late game than j4

LankPantsFeb 21, 20151 votes

lee has a better late game than j4

Just to add to this

Le doesn't always have a better late game than J4, he's weaker in some aspects, mainly J4's super reliable initiation, J4's also a tiny bit tankier, there's not that much in it but J4 may take 1 more spell or AA to kill late game than Lee.

On the other hand Lee has many aspects that actually scale far better than J4. Lee will always deal more damage late game than a Jarvan with the same build, he has better ratios, higher bases and %based damage. While Lee's initiation is a bit less reliable than J4's it's also more powerful when pulled correctly. Lee also obviously has huge advantages over J4 in terms of mobility, one huge advantage that Lee has over J4 is that he doesn't fully commit to a fight until after he blows his first dash, once J4 E/Qs he's all in, Lee can Q/Q and still decide to kick his target back into their team and/or ward jump away.

As for why it's more common for pros to pick up J4 over Lee I'd recommend you watch this video. Crumbz explains this far better than I can but the basic idea is that pros pick J4/Vi/Rek'sai because they guarantee an engage, he clearly states Lee is still the best if you can play him well, which means Lee is still actually more powerful, even if he's less desirable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2eWC8f6K7g

Bears Dont CareFeb 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

J4 is both stronger and easier to play than Lee. He's a more urgent balance problem for more of the playerbase.

Except he isn't, the only aspect that Jarvan 4 can outperform Lee Sin is through his tankiness through his shield. Otherwise, Lee Sin enjoys more mobility and similar, if not the same utility load.

I don't think this is actually true. Riot is heavily prioritizing reworks for older kits, and those kits are tending to get more stuff in the rework. For example, look at new Sion versus old Sion; new Sion has way more mechanics in his kit than old Sion ever did.

It is true, they stated themselves that they do not wish to touch Lee Sin since they are afraid of community feedback. a.k.a. LCS

SmokingPuffinFeb 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Except he isn't, the only aspect that Jarvan 4 can outperform Lee Sin is through his tankiness through his shield. Otherwise, Lee Sin enjoys more mobility and similar, if not the same utility load.

J4's main advantage over Lee is that he can easily start a teamfight whenever he wants. Lee has to get crafty if he wants one, but J4 is like EQR DEMACIAAAA and it's basically the same story as with Vi.

It is true, they stated themselves that they do not wish to touch Lee Sin since they are afraid of community feedback. a.k.a. LCS

That's about being afraid to nerf him. It's true, they display obvious Lee favoritism because he's fun and popular.

However, Riot has displayed no interest in reworking any overloaded kit champion Jayce, Elise, Irelia. In fact, they're reworking the simplest champions in the game Sion Sivir Tristana , and the result is a more complex kit in every case. If Riot ever does rework Lee, it won't be because his kit is overloaded.

Bears Dont CareFeb 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

J4's main advantage over Lee is that he can easily start a teamfight whenever he wants. Lee has to get crafty if he wants one, but J4 is like EQR DEMACIAAAA and it's basically the same story as with Vi.

Lee can actually do similar if not the same. QQER then W out of there.

Jarvan has less tools to escape. He either goes DEMACIA!

Lee Sin has never had issues initiating fights, and his ability to compltely displace the ADC or priority target is uncanny and near impossible to replicate. Jarvan's advantage is the combo with his walls such as with Gnar, but that takes a lot of set up and doesn't occur often in competitive play.

That's about being afraid to nerf him. It's true, they display obvious Lee favoritism because he's fun and popular.

However, Riot has displayed no interest in reworking any overloaded kit champion Jayce, Elise, Irelia. In fact, they're reworking the simplest champions in the game , and the result is a more complex kit in every case. If Riot ever does rework Lee, it won't be because his kit is overloaded.

No, it was stated repeatedly, that Lee's rework was intended to deal with his overloaded kit. The only reason he isn't being worked on as a priority is again, their fear of negative feedback. Devs stated it themselves.

SmokingPuffinFeb 21, 20151 votes

Lee can actually do similar if not the same. QQER then W out of there.

Compared to Jarvan EQR:

Shorter initiation range.
Slower initiation.
Requires a landed skillshot to initiate.

No, it was stated repeatedly, that Lee's rework was intended to deal with his overloaded kit. The only reason he isn't being worked on as a priority is again, their fear of negative feedback. Devs stated it themselves.

Which rework proposal are you speaking of?

I have never seen Riot propose a kit for Lee that is anything but overloaded. A while back, they proposed buffing his passive and toning down the damage on some abilities, but he still had the same amount of utility he has today.

Morello is the guy who said they don't want to nerf Lee because backlash, but he wasn't talking about reworking Lee in that tweet.

Bears Dont CareFeb 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Compared to Jarvan EQR:

Shorter initiation range.

Slower initiation.

Requires a landed skillshot to initiate.

Jarvan EQR total range = 830 (the EQ part here) +650 (ult range)= 1480 Lee SIn QWR range = 1100 + 700 = 1800

Lee Sin has greater range, and his Q projectile is faster than Jarvan's EQ, and he can use W first to ensure he can land the skill shot more easily. No, Lee Sin does not initiate slower, now does he have less range. You could argue "muh skill shot", but guess what Jarvan's EQ is?

Which rework proposal are you speaking of?

I have never seen Riot propose a kit for Lee that is anything but overloaded. A while back, they proposed buffing his passive and toning down the damage on some abilities, but he still had the same amount of utility he has today.

Morello is the guy who said they don't want to nerf Lee because backlash, but he wasn't talking about reworking Lee in that tweet.

IIRC, it was stated by one of the devs they wanted to rework Lee Sin because of his kit, how it is generalist and seen as overloaded but the backlash was too great. Iirc it was another dev reflecting MOrello's thoughts as well.

SmokingPuffinFeb 24, 20151 votes

Your range number for Lee is a big overestimate. You don't initiate a teamfight by kicking enemies forward. You kick them backward into your team. That means your practical initiation range is your Q range -- you land it, you use W to ward hop behind the enemy, you kick them backward.

Jarvan need not hit his EQ to initiate a teamfight. He just loses some damage for missing it. It is very common for Jarvan to have no intention of landing the knockup.

IIRC, it was stated by one of the devs they wanted to rework Lee Sin because of his kit, how it is generalist and seen as overloaded but the backlash was too great.

They often talk about how lee is too generalist, but they've never proposed a kit that makes him anything but that. The backlash Morello was referring to, and later GC echoed, was about removing Lee's ability to ward hop.

Bears Dont CareFeb 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Your range number for Lee is a big overestimate. You don't initiate a teamfight by kicking enemies forward. You kick them backward into your team. That means your practical initiation range is your Q range -- you land it, you use W to ward hop behind the enemy, you kick them backward.

The same argument could be ued for Jarvan. You R in, then EQ for pursuit when they blink/dash out. Making his practical range less than one would state. Let alone, nothing stops Lee SIn from W'ing behind the enemy from the side, kicking them, then Q'ing out. Exact same capabilities Jarvan himself possesses.

Jarvan need not hit his EQ to initiate a teamfight. He just loses some damage for missing it. It is very common for Jarvan to have no intention of landing the knockup.

A jarvan that EQ's without the intention of a knock up does so to gap close for his R. A Lee Sin can W over, kick, then Q to follow after them to the front line. Jarvan's EQ provides CC which helps win a teamfight, and so yu're more likely to initiate with your ult than your EQ which will be guaaranteed knock up

They often talk about how lee is too generalist, but they've never proposed a kit that makes him anything but that. The backlash Morello was referring to, and later GC echoed, was about removing Lee's ability to ward hop.

They proposed one rework and people whined, it was stated afterwards they wanted to focus him, but againthey fear backlash, Which is funny considering the outcry on Sona. and Veigar.

SmokingPuffinFeb 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The same argument could be ued for Jarvan. You R in, then EQ for pursuit when they blink/dash out. Making his practical range less than one would state.

In competitive practice, Jarvan EQR is the most common way he starts teamfights. It would therefore be absurd to suggest that Jarvan's practical range is his R range.

Let alone, nothing stops Lee SIn from W'ing behind the enemy from the side, kicking them, then Q'ing out. Exact same capabilities Jarvan himself possesses.

This engagement pattern has much shorter range than QQ, ward->W, R. You have to be within W range, not just of the champion, but of a point behind the enemy champion.

Bears Dont CareFeb 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

In competitive practice, Jarvan EQR is the most common way he starts teamfights. It would therefore be absurd to suggest that Jarvan's practical range is his R range.

EQR is the most common way to start fights because it allows Jarvan to get within range to ult quickly. It is NOT because it is the best method of doing so. If you watch C9 Meteos or any other Jungler, if they are in position where they can use their ultimate first, they will do so and THEN use their EQ to chase/knock up everyone inside of their ult.

If you pop EQR, then you have nothing to stop their attempted escape.

This engagement pattern has much shorter range than QQ, ward->W, R. You have to be within W range, not just of the champion, but of a point behind the enemy champion.

Lee SIn has the flexibility to do QWR, just as Jarvan can do REQ instead of EQR. They re flexibile and Lee SIn's just allows more flexibility and more flexible escapes.

UdoIkOSc4uFeb 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

J4's main advantage over Lee is that he can easily start a teamfight whenever he wants. Lee has to get crafty if he wants one, but J4 is like EQR DEMACIAAAA and it's basically the same story as with Vi.

That's about being afraid to nerf him. It's true, they display obvious Lee favoritism because he's fun and popular.

However, Riot has displayed no interest in reworking any overloaded kit champion Jayce, Elise, Irelia. In fact, they're reworking the simplest champions in the game , and the result is a more complex kit in every case. If Riot ever does rework Lee, it won't be because his kit is overloaded.

Ok j4 has a way better counterplay and is healthier than lee win free win always when you see his e it is a slow projectile and is a skill shot so when you see the flag you can move by a bit and after he has to use his q which is a slow projectile as well and have a lot of cd well at least more cd than lee spells plus he can only go in so if he miss he has no way to capitalize on it and he is gonna get blown up,meanwhile lee q has 5 sec but the real cd is 3 if when he go in samething go bad must just ward jump away and if the enemy keep follow him he will deal a shitload amount of damage from his r and run anyway so you can't really miss with lee free cancer champ

Mandang0Feb 20, 20151 votes

See no nerfs, be no nerfs?

The WhamboozlerFeb 20, 20151 votes

They've actually been TRYING to nerf Lee Sin for years. Unfortunately, nerfs are skillshots. xD

Jarrito232Feb 20, 20151 votes

Lee Sin's win rate is at 46%. If anything Lee Sin should be buffed. Just because a champion is hard to play against or is strong in a 1v1 doesn't mean he is OP. Taric currently has a higher win rate than Lee Sin (Taric is at 53%). I'm getting really tired of hearing a bunch of complaints about Lee Sin and Zed being OP. Speaking about Zed his win rate is at 47%. They aren't champions you can just 1v1 without a high amount of CC. Their high burst damage and lifesteal makes sure that they stay alive. Stop blaming it on Riot that you can't play against an assassin champ correctly.

Awaiting for this comment to get downvoted to hell.

JumbaJoopleakleyFeb 21, 20151 votes

Better nerf Taric.

UdoIkOSc4uFeb 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin's win rate is at 46%. If anything Lee Sin should be buffed. Just because a champion is hard to play against or is strong in a 1v1 doesn't mean he is OP. Taric currently has a higher win rate than Lee Sin (Taric is at 53%). I'm getting really tired of hearing a bunch of complaints about Lee Sin and Zed being OP. Speaking about Zed his win rate is at 47%. They aren't champions you can just 1v1 without a high amount of CC. Their high burst damage and lifesteal makes sure that they stay alive. Stop blaming it on Riot that you can't play against an assassin champ correctly.

Awaiting for this comment to get downvoted to hell.

ahahahah when lb had her silence her winrate was 45 i assure you that if they nerf lee win his wr will be the same and see how much they are nerfing kassa the only reason lee win rate is low is because they are all sheeps and thanks at those sheeps most people think that lee doesn't need nerf