Riot had the ability to turn things around with preseason

Towboat421·Nov 12, 2018·95 votes·18,998 views

And instead, they want to make all tanks into bruisers. Ornn and Sejuani will just be the first, why cant tanks be tanks it was my favorite role now al of them have needlessly overblown damage in their kits in order to force them to be pickable. Rather than addressing the problem of damage being too high and champs being crowded out they just decided to exacerbate this issue further. If you still think riot even has a vague semblance of what it is they are doing i don't know what else to say man.

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

55 Comments

njrk97Nov 13, 201847 votes

They wont fix it, i have mentioned this before in another thread, this isn't just questionable balance anymore, this is intentional design decisions by this point. Its why I left, there is no incentive for them to fix this, because their has been a shift of focus from the higher ups, put yourself in Riots shoes this season, now update and change the game, but you have one core principle to adhere to now "first priority is to get viewer,Twitch streamers and so on to watch league. Second priority is making the game functional enough to play without milling too many player", and suddenly every new champ,rune,camp and balance decision falls into place.

The game length, the overloaded champs, the lack of quelling damage creep,the runes that amount to more and more damage, the random nerfs on unorthodox items or champs and the shift of making tanks be more damage and less tank. Its for the viewers.

League is now a game being balanced first and foremost for those who watch the game instead of playing it, and guess what, it worked, Worlds was one of the biggest yet, League is still near the top on twitch streams. This is exactly what they wanted, and they got it. So then you are left with the question again.

Riot had the chance to turn things around this preseason....But why would they? its working, they are getting viewers, so what if the boards are complaining, hardly any of them are gonna leave the game really, and even if they do, just chuck a new skin line out and they will come back (KDA and so on).

I have no faith any of the issue with league will be fixed until it becomes a high enough issues that they lose viewers, that is why i left, this isn't ardent, or bruiser or any other meta where their was a misstep or a unintentional side effect, this is what they want, this is League now, and the fact that its at the top of Twitch and that worlds was so successful just shows that its working and as long as its working, they wont change it, not in any meaningful way.

KaishaNov 13, 20182 votes

Someone gets it.

The only way for big companies to care, is to hit them where it hurts, their wallets. If everyone collectively stopped buying RP, it'd be 'fixed' within a week guaranteed.

Lil Homie bustaNov 13, 20182 votes

Not really. They make money from numerous ways, RP is just one of them.

Their objective is to make the investors happy. This is where the money is at.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 13, 20181 votes

And riot apparently fails horribly at that. Esports still costs more than it brings and tencent released this or last year they lost 20% in league to prior years.

Lil Homie bustaNov 13, 20183 votes

True story.

It's not conspiracy theory, it's just clear and visible facts. There's only one way to not see it, and it requires delusion.

XxXGwanXxXNov 13, 20185 votes

"Worlds was one of the biggest yet"

Totally nothing to do with the missions they gave people or anything, I fking knew they would mention numbers after making missions like that.

Bobloser3555Nov 12, 201827 votes

Yeah I love tanks too, but I never feel that I can soak any damage come late game, so I don't really play them anymore. I play Tryndamere because I feel he is more tanky than anyone with some tank items, love that he is so difficult to kill.

The problem is that tanks used to be the disruptor's but now many champs have cc and dashes that only disrupting the enemy is not sufficient, on top of that they get melted faster than in previous seasons, if Riot does not want to give them more survivability or disruptability the only other option to keep tanks viable IS to give them more damage.

IfnethNov 14, 20183 votes

You’re not supposed to soak damage come late game. The carries have been farming for well over thirty minutes by then, have penetration items, and would be useless if you could just shrug off their abilities and attacks.

Champions with such builds are designed to kill you:

item 3285 item 3020 item 3165 item 3157 item 3135

item 3153 item 3006 item 3085 item 3031 item 3036

Tanks fall off hard. Get yourself so far ahead that you’re invincible, or make the plays and saves for your team, or both. Your survivability is what enables your disruption—not the other way around.

Frog goes mooNov 14, 20181 votes

I agree with what you're saying but aftershock could turn that last statement into a vice versa thing lol

deadlychuckNov 13, 201815 votes

As a ex-support main, who watched the role go from a macro strategist/information gathering, to gold funneling role (mostly thanks to this fucker never getting nerfed Thresh ), and now to what's basically just another mage. It's pretty sad to see that riot still does this stupid shit. They keep culling the numerous niches of the game for the lowest common denominator design. Yet they can't seem to do the simple math, that chasing off 1-4% of your player base time and time again to appease to a demographic which they already have, in a market that they've basically got a monopoly over, just ends up hurting them.

Not to mention, how fucking easy it is to then steal up a demographic of the lowest common denominator by offering them a better version of the same style of entertainment, except without the extra baggage of the legacy aspects which you couldn't justify removing.

Talking about fortnite basically stealing half of league's players because if you want RNG + Meta + Fast pacing + high APM + a small dependency on skill to see that "victory" screen, then fortnite does all of that better, because they could dedicate their game to that design.

Riot made a number of mistakes, the biggest two being they kept trying to grow when they'd very clearly reached market saturation and they failed to divide the community when the community became split between mutually exclusive game designs. If riot wanted the game to be in the current state that it is, there's no reason that it had to be done on SR, or at least no reason that it had to replace the design of the old game. They could have different queues for different game modes and just called them two meaningless terms to not bias one as secondary. Summoner's Rift and Champion's Tango (lul idk).

Point being, when the community divides, the game has to divide with it. Else you just end up neglecting a substantial portion of your community to appease the other. And there's a heavy bias to appease the newer of the split audience for numerous financial and superficial reasons.

The PatriachyNov 13, 20188 votes

But Riot told me that damage hadn't changed in Season 8 even though it went from being troll on Lee Sin to buy more than one damage item to being troll to not go full damage.

Riot can't be wrong!

ankoanko19Nov 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Patriachy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vm5pxVT2,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-11-13T09:00:10.447+0000)

But Riot told me that damage hadn't changed in Season 8 even though it went from being troll on Lee Sin to buy more than one damage item to being troll to not go full damage.

Riot can't be wrong!

Mathematically speaking you deal less dmg from elec+Sorc now than thunder+sorc.

Madsin25Nov 13, 20181 votes

Thunderlords had a 10% AP ratio.

Electrocute has a 25% AP ratio.

Also do you deal less damage at minute 30? You know when gathering cancer gives you two and a half rune pages worth of AP.

ankoanko19Nov 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Thunderlords had a 10% AP ratio.

Electrocute has a 25% AP ratio.

Also do you deal less damage at minute 30? You know when gathering cancer gives you two and a half rune pages worth of AP.

I thought the boards complained about mages dealing 0 dmg? Maybe I phrased it wrong but elec gives less dmg to ADs than what tld did. TLD also worked better than elec and procced of one dot effect.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 13, 20181 votes

No it doesn't because elec is adaptive dmg and hence scales with lethality. Why do you think everyone and their mother runs it?

ankoanko19Nov 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No it doesn't because elec is adaptive dmg and hence scales with lethality. Why do you think everyone and their mother runs it?

Exactly, its adaptive dmg. Tld was free magic dmg which most assassins had more value of since you can build 1 armour item to completly neglate a full dusk + youmus + sudden + tld.

TobykachuNov 13, 20184 votes

Whilst they're not correcting all of their mistakes, they certainly are trying.

Rune paths no longer dictate what sort of bonus stats you receive, you can choose them independently.
Laning phase should last significantly longer with the boost in health to towers
The boost to towers also helps to boost towers in general, a problem most have had for a while.
Tanks are getting addressed (Though perhaps not in the right way - tanks are a major problems in competitive vs solo queue)

ProffessorAutismNov 13, 201811 votes

This game would be sooo nice if riot could balance around solo q and not fucking PrOpLaY,just give them 10 bans a team or something and let us have a good time in solo q.

TobykachuNov 13, 20187 votes

Yeah, I agree 200%. It would be nice to not see several champions and mechanics get completely gutted only due to their success in pro play. Teleport, vision, Kalista, Ryze, Azir, Sejuani and Trundle are just a few that come to mind. Sadly Riot isn't intelligent enough to decipher the difference between solo queue and pro play so I guess we're stuck with this.

Spicy RiceNov 13, 20183 votes

I honestly don't understand the mentality that balancing around solo queue is better than balancing around pro play.

You should balance around the most optimal usage of the champion, even if that means that it becomes ridiculously hard for someone to pick up said champion.

E.G. If you balance yasuo for gold or plat gameplay (balance meaning flat 50%), you'd see a massive spike in winrate for people who are extremely skilled with the champ. Hell, I'd expect that my own winrate with him would jump 5% or more, even with my average winrate with him being around 60% over the past few seasons

wolviusNov 13, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vm5pxVT2,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-13T14:54:12.720+0000)

I honestly don't understand the mentality that balancing around solo queue is better than balancing around pro play.

You should balance around the most optimal usage of the champion, even if that means that it becomes ridiculously hard for someone to pick up said champion.

E.G. If you balance yasuo for gold or plat gameplay (balance meaning flat 50%), you'd see a massive spike in winrate for people who are extremely skilled with the champ. Hell, I'd expect that my own winrate with him would jump 5% or more, even with my average winrate with him being around 60% over the past few seasons

You can't balance the whole game around the top 0.001% either, proplay has vast differences compared to ranked even to challenger soloq. Pros have voice comm's which arent present in your average solo queue game as knowing what their ally are going to do and capable of from experience playing with their team members. Honestly the best medium for balance would probably be to balance for mid-high soloq where players are skilled but not as innately skilled team players as in pro-play.

Also if you balance around pro-play only then you completely fuck over everywhere else with assassins buffs as their entire concept is flawed for pro-play. Pro-players might as well have a hive-mind with how well they can negate the assassins threat from roaming in organised play.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 13, 20181 votes

Balance around high elo soloQ meaning dia+. What you need for pro play is just so different from soloQ. There are a lot of high caliber pro players that suck dick in soloQ compared to your average challenger.

SpeeedyNov 13, 20182 votes

simply because in a region there are say 400,000 players a month vs 100 pro players (50 lcs + 50 academy) you aren't going to run a business selling to 100 people only in league. The vast majority of your customers will only play casually in solo Q. The vast majority are the ones that will buy the skins, buy RP, and gift things to other players. Riot needs to stop catering to the .01% and realize they need to make the game more enjoyable for their casual players before they all leave.

Why do games like fortnite do so well? They are balanced on the casual player and every time some new advanced thing is discovered it is removed from the game. Remember speed farming materials? How long did that last? Weapon swap for double pump? This keeps the skill gap low from an amazing player like tfue to the casual and allows them to be beaten once in a while.

League has enough data from Diamond+ players from around the world to balance the game around the top 2% of players (or whatever it is).

Happy solo Q = more people playing more people playing = more people buying shop items more people buying shop items = more profit for riot

Spicy RiceNov 13, 20181 votes

Keeping your lower skill base happy only works when you are gaining a lot of newer players. However, if you keep the skill cap low, over time, your game will die, due to new players gravitating to the newest games, and your older players quitting due to lack of skill expression.

As such, doing such a thing wouldn't work for a game like league, that relies on its established playerbase. As time goes on, the lower skill players will improve holistically. As they improve, there needs to be higher requirements for skill and teamwork for them to want to continue playing.

For an analogy, imagine if an mmo like WoW hardcapped endgame content, but kept creating content for newer players/low leveled players. Sure, they would initially see success, but over time, as newer games came out, they would die, as the newest players would be playing the newest game in the genre, while the oldest players would also leave simply due to lack of content.

SpeeedyNov 13, 20181 votes

you missed the point of what i was saying, I never said lower the skill gap. I said to keep your player base that you have happy. Do you sacrifice 1 person (pro players) to save 4000 (casual players)? Or let all 4000 die? If all 4000 die then guess what you have no one to sell product to and you go out of business. Right now riot is saving the 1 person and screwing the 4000.

Spicy RiceNov 13, 20181 votes

But it's not like you either have pro players, or casual. You have a gradient from pro, to very dedicated, to less dedicated, to casual. Granted, a large chunk of players are casual, but at the same time, casual players are less likely to spend money on the game.

Unless you are banking on people who can't manage their money, most of the people who spend money on this game, are pretty dedicated.

And as I said earlier, dedicated played slowly get better, even without trying to get better at the game.

Lastly, If you don't want to lower the skill gap, you need a better example than Fortnite, as their removal of advanced mechanics is inherently removing the gap in skill between the worst and best players.

SpeeedyNov 13, 20181 votes

this has nothing to do with the skill level of the player. Lets put this in real world things so you can understand a bit better. A new restaurant opens and everything is great. Then a few years down the line a billionaire is in there eating while you are eating. Ok not much has changed now except he has half the staff catering to his every need, while you cant get another drink. Are you happy? No. So you write it off as a one time thing until you go in next time and it happens again. Then again and again. And so on. Are you still going to continue to eat at that restaurant? No the business just lost 50% of its customers that you were doing a few years ago.

TobykachuNov 13, 20181 votes

Because the dynamic of the game in pro play and in solo queue is completely different. Balancing one by balancing the other will simply never happen. In Solo Queue, if every champion had an equal play rate amongst their role and a perfect 50% win rate then certain champions would simply dominate pro play with no exception. However, if the reverse is true and every champion was played equally as much in pro play, then certain champions and mechanics would dominate solo queue.

There's a reason why Ryze has the lowest win rate in the game currently, yet is still one of the best picks in the competitive scene. Similar things have happened to Azir, Kalista, Trundle and Sejuani after her class update.

And it's not just limited to champions, entire mechanics have been changed/nerfed after they were deemed too strong in pro play. Teleport got several repeated nerfs due to it being taken on almost all champions in pro play, which is one of the main reasons you are likely to see 2+ ignites on every team, whilst it still gets taken on most champions in pro play.

Vision has also been slowly getting butchered season after season. No more Sightstone, green smite, green wards, upgradeable trinkets and most recently the number of control wards being lowered from 3 to 2.

It's sad that RIOT thinks pro play is the pinnacle of League of Legends, forgetting that being able to communicate with your team for the entirety of the game completely warps the dynamic of the game. Certain champions get major benefits from being able to tell their team what they're about to do.

Not to mention how in most games team have something major on the line, invalidating a large portion of the more risky champions, mainly assassins. Why pick Zed when it's difficult to know whether you'll be able to snowball or not when you can just pick Orianna and be strong at all stages of the game. Why pick Thresh when you can pick Tahm Kench and have a free escape for anyone who gets themselves caught? This is literally the way pro players make their living, they can't afford to take such risks.

Spicy RiceNov 13, 20181 votes

I don't think you can blame the competitive scene for something you simply don't want to do. It's not like we can't use voice chat to communicate, or that we can't play as seriously as the pros. We simply choose not to.

Expecting balance to be revolve around players who choose not to use all the tools available to them is almost narcissistic in nature, akin to playing Monopoly with a 5 year old who restocks their cash every time they go bankrupt simply because they can't play well enough.

And it's not like you can say that pro play and solo queue are separate metas. Oftentimes, pro play bleeds into the solo queue meta, as people are constantly looking for an edge. It's why at one point, everyone was playing Olaf mid, or using double tp, or using only siege mages mid, etc.

TobykachuNov 13, 20182 votes

What are you talking about? League does not offer any way for people to voice chat with one another unless they're premades and the vast majority of LoL players don't feel comfortable adding random strangers into a third party program to do so.

And Solo Queue and Pro Play often times are completely opposite metas. Worlds was a pretty big tank meta as usual, but tanks are rarely seen at all in Solo Queue

Gramps69Nov 13, 20181 votes

Why balance around pro play? Everyone has their top 2-3 champions for their role plus a pocket pick (although those aren't really a thing anymore, thx Rito), and pro play can be more strategic with their bans than a group of 5 Silver kids randomly thrown together

Gramps69Nov 13, 20181 votes

They should make pros play on different patches than normal players, or as someone earlier mentioned, have a different game setup for pro if so many champions/archetypes are problematic in one style of play or the other.

Blackii7Nov 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Whilst they're not correcting all of their mistakes, they certainly are trying.

Rune paths no longer dictate what sort of bonus stats you receive, you can choose them independently.

Laning phase should last significantly longer with the boost in health to towers

The boost to towers also helps to boost towers in general, a problem most have had for a while.

Tanks are getting addressed (Though perhaps not in the right way - tanks are a major problems in competitive vs solo queue)

No, they are simply folding under pressure.

Runes were already good enough before the Runes Reforged, they are simply doing what runes could do but with less flexibility.
Yes, only thing is tower give a ton of gold now, so the games will be even shorter.
I mean if they didn't do anything to towers everyone would've flipped their shit.
Tanks are losing their shields and getting more % damage, in another words they are changing them into bruisers. The player base is what makes this game alive, not pro-play, as simple as that. tanks should soak damage, not deal damage.

ÈvilMortyNov 13, 20184 votes

Its like call of duty mw2 instead of balancing just fight broken with broken.

Jayce TopNov 13, 20181 votes

Noob tube vs 360 no scope across the map

HethaleanNov 12, 20183 votes

How will Ornn and Sejuani be overloaded with damage? Becauase of Runes or their kit changes?

Towboat421Nov 12, 201813 votes

{quoted}

How will Ornn and Sejuani be overloaded with damage? Becauase of Runes or their kit changes?

Pbe changes ornn sheild getting removed getting more % damage. Sej has had cc reduced across the board and ups her scaling damage.

Iota ThetaNov 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

How will Ornn and Sejuani be overloaded with damage? Becauase of Runes or their kit changes?

Ornn is regaining Unstoppable his Brittle proc damage is buffed, but he’s losing his shield. His E got a better knockup, and R now has a funky “slow on first part scales with distance traveled” and the second part has reduced knockup for target’s after the first. Q also got reduced mana costs, so more spammable. Squad5 suspects Q max or E max best since W is basically just a 1 point skill now (no reducing CD per rank, no shield, etc, i think only breath damage goes up, so it might still get maxed early). His passive also now auto upgrades 2 items for him for free at 11, and level 12-15 he can upgrade one item for an ally per level (each can only have one item). Passive stat increases.

Sejuani is getting some passive stat increases as well, is losing her slow on W, her E stun has a reduced duration by .2 seconds each rank, but is gaining damage to both W and E, E being the biggest at +200 at rank 5.

CandiceuLNov 13, 20183 votes

They are being forced to deal with the every game is a stomp hting a bit tho because no one enjoys watching one sided trash games.

KryptoKn1ghtNov 14, 20183 votes

No one seems to point out the ability to balance separately when all pro play is done on Lan private matches.

Think like other eSports like COD does in CWL . There are guns, attachments, perks, killstreaks etc that are available in the normal game, but are made unavailable in pro play because they're too strong.

Instead riot nerf all that stuff in pro to a point they're so bad that no one outside the most skilled players can even make them viable. And so they never get used in normal play.

Balance around normal play to keep the community happy and just ban the OPS from pro play... It's not that hard...

DeusVultNov 13, 20182 votes

"in order to force them to be pickable"

Orrn was already good in soloQ and a must pick/learn as a tank in competitive play, he would almost never lose lane, scales very well with game length, and brings a pretty much guaranteed engage tool

IDK why they are changing him, but I see Orrn being a huge soloQ and competitive problem if these changes go through

MadNoffNov 14, 20182 votes

I dunno man, I think RIOT knows EXACTLY what they are doing. It might not sit well with you (or me for that matter) but apparently, it makes them a lot of money.

Projectile VomitNov 12, 20181 votes

Where can i read about this? is there an official article published by Riot?

Towboat421Nov 12, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Projectile Vomit,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vm5pxVT2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-12T19:16:28.095+0000)

Where can i read about this? is there an official article published by Riot?

Surrender at 20, pbe files that go to public testing. typically supposed to act as quality assurance but riot has a history of letting just about anything through.

Warlord RhinarkNov 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Surrender at 20, pbe files that go to public testing. typically supposed to act as quality assurance but riot has a history of letting just about anything through.

With the AP ratios she got a few patches back, Sejuani will most likely turn into an AP Assassin.

Mandalorian 117Nov 13, 20181 votes

I’ve seen a post about how Sej is lacking in damage compared to the old one, and how ap Sej is no longer a thing. I’m just confused, and wondering if I’m playing the champion right at all.

SanKakUNov 13, 20185 votes

The only way to play her correctly now is to not play her at all. She doesn't feel like a real champion, more like an alternate form of Rift Herald.

CarnicoreNov 14, 20181 votes

"Riot please buff Sejuani, she's so weak in soloqueue"

Riot reworks Sejuani to make her balanceable for both soloqueue and professional play

"Riot please stop buffing tanks to do so much damage"

Make up your minds, guys. Because of competitive play, Sejuani can't be balanced unless her damage is ridiculously low. Taking away some utility and giving her damage means she can be good in soloqueue without being S tier in LCS. Meddler made this very clear in his post explaining the changes.

Towboat421Nov 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

"Riot please buff Sejuani, she's so weak in soloqueue"

Riot reworks Sejuani to make her balanceable for both soloqueue and professional play

"Riot please stop buffing tanks to do so much damage"

Make up your minds, guys. Because of competitive play, Sejuani can't be balanced unless her damage is ridiculously low. Taking away some utility and giving her damage means she can be good in soloqueue without being S tier in LCS. Meddler made this very clear in his post explaining the changes.

No one asked for tanks to be made into overblown damage dealers, chances are you didnt even bother to read the changes and are doing the standard apologist thing to be contrarian.

CarnicoreNov 14, 20181 votes

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Do you want tanks to be decent damage threats? Or do you want them to be underpowered? Those are your choices.

I'm not being contrarian, I just read what Meddler said about the tank changes.