There's an elephant in the room; Marksmen are still the only viable carry in the duo lane.

MealReadytoEat··13 votes·1,628 views

The marksmen rework gives them the variety, versatility, and early game power needed for them to be truly successful outside of duo lanes. They are way more fun to play, and it's great that the map has been opened up to them, but** bot lane has NOT been opened up to anything else. If anything they are even more optimal for duo lanes. **

This is largely because Marksmen need XP by far the least of any role. AD and AS barely budge with level, while mages and most bruisers derive most of their damage up until late game off of levels. Marksmen, even casters like Ezreal, derive most of their power from item scalings, not XP, so they can be shoved in the lane with reduced XP but more than full gold (as they don't need to spend money on wards) without loosing much. Melees can't really do this; for one they tend to be forced out of lane by ranged champs, especially when the ranged champ has a support to peel for them, but equally importantly the defensive bonuses (HP, AR, MR) for leveling are MUCH more important for them than marksmen, both because being melee makes them far more vulnerable, and because they tend to get higher stats per level.

Until this is changed, marksmen will only see play outside of duo lanes along WITH a marksmen in the duo lane, which means they'd be overpowered enough not only to make up for the assets of what they replaced (such as a zone control mage), but also able to brute force through itemization and compositions meant to counter marksmen.

I'm not saying nothing else CAN work bot lane, but they are by far the most reliable option. And reliability is ultimately what has cemented their position bot lane in the first place.

I absolutely want marksmen to be viable in every lane, but along with that I want things other than marksmen available bot lane!

We really need to talk about this.

This post spun off my very long thread, The State of Marksmen, currently in two parts; (Why they Need the Rework), and (Why this Rework isn't it, Yet) In these post I go into more in depth into the issues with marksmen, including this one, and what the rework does, doesn't, and should do to address.

For the record, Yasuo works quite well bot lane, although Morde (who forced his way bot though a gimmick on his w, now nerfed) suffers drastically with the changes.

21 Comments

Gnart Even Close2 votes

nice. im gonna go read those other threads rn. i can tell you i absolutely hate ranged champions top (besides Gnar, he's special, and maybe Jayce), and I think marksmen should be forced into the duo lane bot unless they play as an AP carry (i.e. Varus, Kog'maw, Ezreal)

HentRex1 votes

Well Varus mid still builds AD, Slightly different build than bot lane Varus, but AD none the less. And Quinn seems to only be viable in a solo lane,(Passive scaling better off levels then items unless in "late" game). Her kit seems more for solo play than a duo lane.

Stupid, mindless, rant time If you don't want ADC's in solo lanes, Tell all the mages and tanks to get out of my "Support" role. XP

MealReadytoEat1 votes

I mean, the only two supports by design not seeing much play are Taric and Sona, really. And Taric's slated for a rework soon. I'm not seeing many mages anymore.

I'm not a huge fan of the necessity of the 50 shades of Bot Lane Support concept in the first place. Why I think there is room for champions who only exert power through their allies, I wish it wasn't a necessity, game after game. I'd like the option of warding and the pain of 5 champions with only 3 lanes to be spread out better amongst the team, rather than all the pain given to one player, every game.

I love double relic melee bot lanes, for this reason. Morde, Yasuo, and J4 bot lane are my mains right now, although I'm pretty sure Yasuo is the only one who will function well after 5.22.

Gnart Even Close2 votes

{quoted}

Well Varus mid still builds AD, Slightly different build than bot lane Varus, but AD none the less. And Quinn seems to only be viable in a solo lane,(Passive scaling better off levels then items unless in "late" game). Her kit seems more for solo play than a duo lane.

Stupid, mindless, rant time If you don't want ADC's in solo lanes, Tell all the mages and tanks to get out of my "Support" role. XP

I have no problem with them leaving, but Braum is a support that simply also happens to be a tank. Honestly, I wish it was bruiser/tank top, mage/assassin mid, tank/assassin jg, adc and support bot. too much bleeding in between roles is not really a good thing like Riot is trying to imply. all that it implies is that some champs are op, and should be nerfed (obviously, a lot of champs can be good in two places, like Ezreal, Wukong, etc). supports should be those cool playmakers that rely on their team to do anything, like thresh, janna, and braum

MealReadytoEat2 votes

Why do you want a set in stone meta? I want every position to have as many viable options in role and playstyle as possible. I'm not saying I want every CHAMPION to be viable everywere, but I think there should be certain tanks, assassins, mages, etc available in each lane. I don't want one role or play style to dominate all others, in one lane or the game as a whole.

Gnart Even Close2 votes

{quoted}

Why do you want a set in stone meta? I want every position to have as many viable options in role and playstyle as possible. I'm not saying I want every CHAMPION to be viable everywere, but I think there should be certain tanks, assassins, mages, etc available in each lane. I don't want one role or play style to dominate all others, in one lane or the game as a whole.

I don't necessarily want a set in stone meta, I just want a meta where people can't pull BS like Vayne top because the vast majority of top laners are melee and thus can't punish her. If everyone in top lane is melee, that is fair, but if some ranged (besides Gnar) can go top lane, then it's very antifun, especially if they can kite well (Gnar w/ Frozen Mallet). ADCs and support should stay in the duo lane, whether that shifts to top lane with the new Rift Herald or stays bot lane for the Dragon. I want everything to be viable, but only in certain places. Putting champions in a different lane is often used to abuse something (like Vayne can't be easily punished by melee, or Mordekaiser abusing the exp and Dragon). If the champion is only good in one or two places, then they can have easily exploitable weaknesses and visible strengths without being unchecked and antifun.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

Also, I'd recommend practicing Brand. He's incredibly strong bot lane on PBE.

MealReadytoEat5 votes

I don't absolutely hate ranged champions outside of bot lane. I mained jungle twitch from s1 to patch 4.10. I dislike that marksmen always have been both absolutely necessary for a functional team in high tier play, and the only real option bot lane.

What bothers the most is that meta has always been around marksmen. It tends to vary between a kill-the-marksmen assassin meta, to a set-up-the-marksmen mage/combo meta, to a don't-die-to-the-marksmen tank meta. And right now, I'm worried it's about to become don't-play-anything-but-marksmen meta.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

I don't absolutely hate ranged champions outside of bot lane. I mained jungle twitch from s1 to patch 4.10. I dislike that marksmen always have been both absolutely necessary for a functional team in high tier play, and the only real option bot lane.

What bothers the most is that meta has always been around marksmen. It tends to vary between a kill-the-marksmen assassin meta, to a set-up-the-marksmen mage/combo meta, to a don't-die-to-the-marksmen tank meta. And right now, I'm worried it's about to become don't-play-anything-but-marksmen meta.

old ezreal main here, i also dislike that ranged adc are the only viable late game dps source in the bottom lane

charcharmunro2 votes

I imagine most of the "melee ADCs" ( MasterYi, Tryndamere, Jax, Aatrox and so on ) could probably work well in bot-lane as well, as they scale better with items than with levels like marksmen.

MealReadytoEat4 votes

I address this in my other posts, mostly the first. I could have written more on this post about it, but then it'd get longer and longer.

For the most part, they lack the reliability of a Marksmen, and suffer hard laning against ranged, especially when the range has someone to peel for them. Marksmen can farm so much safer, and are closer to their turret while doing so.

They can certainly form cheesy bot lanes around the fact that the player has more experience playing melee carries bot lane than their opponents have playing against it, but they don't really have viability for frequent play, or high tier play.

Smithney1 votes

I tried to promote the idea of introducing a special set of starting items to help melee champions in bot lane. I think that at least the solo queue could benefit from bruiser bot, even though it wouldn't ever be played in pro formats. If carries became risky enough in the early game, perhaps melee botlane could stand a chance in early pressure compositions.

However, as you mentioned in your threads, marksmen are uniquely useful for strategic purposes and incredibly hard to replace. Riot have probably embraced the idea of permament marksmen meta and so has a lot of players, which makes me think whether the idea could recieve enough support in the end. On the other hand, Riot have showed willingness to alter which role goes into which position (Mordekaiser and Kindred), so perhaps there is hope that marksmen can become less mandatory.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

I have a link in my second thread about some ideas i had for carry items for melee. They actully did some systematic changes that will help that I'm going to go into in post #4

Smithney2 votes

You're taking things seriously and you communicate your thoughts really well. I bet you'd make a great game designer. :P Anyway, I unfortunately don't have time for all the nitty-gritty details, which means I cannot help you too much with your efforts, but I seriously hope Riot will come over your posts and pay you the attention you deserve.

MealReadytoEat2 votes

Thanks. I should have part 3 up in the next 8 hours.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Azir (insert every other champion that builds Nashor's and is ranged) Veigar Mordekaiser Orianna are a bit more viable now that we don't need an ADC to push down towers always.

MealReadytoEat2 votes

Indeed. Giving some mages more AS per level would really help as well.

Rebonack1 votes

Making Nashor's OnHit work against Towers would be a nice little bump for Mage's objective taking prowess. I'm also pondering whether it should be bumped up to 0.2 from 0.15 due to the loss of that AP conversion mastery (though I would prefer if the two %pen masteries were combined into a single hybrid pen mastery and an AP on autos mastery were added as the alternative in that tier).

Though generally speaking, I feel like most of what's going on bottom lane is little more than an artifact of how EXP is shared. It makes me wonder what would happen if Riot took a more Dominion-y route with experience. The level disparity between different positions wouldn't be quite as high and a failed roam wouldn't be quite as punishing, allowing for riskier plays without falling behind.

Original Quitter1 votes

There are really very few options to change the fact that ADCs + Support are simply the most optimal configuration for a duo lane in most cases.

  1. Remove all skills in the game that heal allies. This idea generally sucks and would only make cheese lanes stronger and not actually effect the real meta.

2. Create a support item that if equipped does not cause the user to split the exp. _IE: XP Suport item - You no longer reduce the exp gain for allies - for every nearby ally champion, effect is reduced by 0% 20% 30% 40% 50% this effect only applies to exp generated from minions. _ So in essence as long as you are standing next to only 1 ally, they will gain full exp for all their kills, if you are next to two allies you then reduce the exp gain by X amount until when you are next to your entire team the exp is reduced as normal.

This is the only real option that doesn't require a reboot of nearly all of league that will allow any champion in the game to essentialy become the support and go to whatever lane they want and support whoever they want. You can have a true roaming support, and by making it only work for minnions and not monsters you can't have perma double jungle.

MealReadytoEat2 votes

I'd honestly rather have it on a carry item, rather than support. Otherwise it's just more pain we'd expect supports to take for the team.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Hopefully the meta will change to something else with the carry rework, unfortunately from the sound of the beta pages, carrys will be the only viable role :/

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