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On the PBE, Late game ADC's have 50% or more lifesteal, 300+ AD, and 70-100% crit.

MealReadytoEat·Oct 31, 2015·89 votes·21,969 views

Lifesteal and physical damage vamp is frekin' everywhere. 2% in the masteries, another 15% on crits in the masteries, 15% phys vamp on red pot, 12% lifesteal on Mercurial, 12% phys vamp on a new top - tier AD item, and 10% on Maw.

With ye standard 5 items - of IE, BT, SS, PD, Red Pot, and Mortal Reminder (Last whisper + 5 seconds of grievous wounds on all physical damage) you are at 210 bonus AD, 80% crit, and 52% Lifesteal on crits, 37 off crits. You still got a slot for more CRIT, AS, and MS, or Mercurial or Maw or whatever suits your fancy.

Most Casters are going to go IE, ER, SS, upgraded LW, BT, TF, Red Pot- 90% crit, 40% CDR, 50% Lifesteal, 300 bonus AD, 10% MS (slightly slower than boots, slightly faster with phage proc), while corki will drop the upgraded LW for whatever he damn pleases.

Seriously, ADC's get 30% to 32% lifesteal late game WITHOUT A SINGLE LIFESTEAL ITEM. Admittedly, 15% of this (the red pot) only works against champions.

At least their ADC applies grievous wounds too, although it's down to 40% reduction.

(To all the people who think I'm saying that ADC's are in a good spot right now (they aren't), or that I don't want marksmen to be fun to play, please read my post here!)

177 Comments

Sans Wasnt HardOct 31, 201534 votes

Ill wait 2 more pbe cycles. If I dont see anything being buffed to counter this adc bullshit then Ill just abandon this game.

MordepoolOct 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Ill wait 2 more pbe cycles. If I dont see anything being buffed to counter this adc bullshit then Ill just abandon this game.

I quit over Morde. This shits gone downhill fast.

MatezoideOct 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I quit over Morde. This shits gone downhill fast.

You and me both bro, highfive!

[{quoted}](name=A Baked Potatuh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qYF6EAQG,comment-id=000d00000001,timestamp=2015-10-31T07:30:38.358+0000)

Honestly, Dota carries ain't got shiz on top/jg/adc/mid in league in terms of snowballing. You'd have to have someone actively feeding a Void couriers for 20 minutes to make him do what Vayne/Riven/Etc can do with a handful of kills.

And yet another reason why Dota's hard carries are balanced. They are legit weak early game, not "kinda below average" like Vayne who needs a single kill in lane to snowball.

I have literally never lost a game to a carry just because he lucked out and cheesed a kill in lane.

MarthianOct 31, 201528 votes

It's not PBE for nothing. They are still making changes and current PBE is (very) unlikely to be what the final patch hitting Live will be.

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 201550 votes

While true, it's important that they hear our feedback. At Least my feedback, damnit.

Hayaishi2Oct 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

While true, it's important that they hear our feedback. At Least my feedback, damnit.

Why 30% lifesteal with no life steal items?

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20158 votes

15% from Red Pot (which is actully on all physical damage, but against champions only), and 15% from masteries on crit (which is actually all crit damage, including the Statikk Shiv proc)

LlaniteOct 31, 201512 votes

Lol.

It's the same as saying everyone gets to have 25% tenacity without any tenacity item. Elixir isn't free, neither is mastery.

The Bearded BardOct 31, 20156 votes

Masteries are 100% free lol. Not only that, Red pot is the only elixir that refreshes on kill or assist, so in theory you can have that 15% phys vamp from level 9 to the rest of the game for 400 gold. It's not even hard to do, I've been doing it on Talon since they created the item.

Scion of HellOct 31, 20153 votes

Red pot is 500 gold and doesn't refresh now.

Elixir of Wrath Cost increased to 500 from 400 AD bonus increased to 30 from 25 Bloodlust's heal increased to 15% from 10% Kills no longer extend duration. Source

UltraboomerOct 31, 20158 votes

masteries aren't free though. while they don't cost you any gold, they do keep you form choosing other masteries. in this case as I recall you can take the 15% vamp on crits, or you can take a sizeable damage option. so you're taking increased sustain at the cost of decreased dps. Having said that, I haven't studied the new mastery trees much yet, and could be remembering the trees wrong.

The WizpigOct 31, 20157 votes

Notice that the lifesteal on crit mastery has a 2 second CD

TSM DyrusOct 31, 20152 votes

I completely disagree that this is OP. You get VERY close to those thats currently. So only some extra lifesteal is what youre all moaning about. Like ADC's dont need more survivability in a BRUISER meta, who just dumpster ADC's.

Biff ManlyOct 31, 201511 votes

Interestingly, the adc that builds that can still be melted instantly by Rengar / Elise / Veigar and several other bursty champs.

50% lifesteal isn't gonna help you much when assassins make a beeline for your overpowered ass.

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20157 votes

Rengar? Maybe

Elise and Veigar? Hell no. Like I said, mercurial is now an incredible item. Tied for Highest AD in the game, 12 LS, 35 MR, and of course the cleanse with MS active.

Kuroi86Oct 31, 201510 votes

Veigar 1000 AP Q= 230 (+ 60% AP) R= 500 (+ 100% AP)

You just got Ctrl, Alt, Deleted.

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20158 votes

That won't kill an ADC with Maw, and probably not if they have mercurial.

Kuroi86Oct 31, 20158 votes

We're talking 2330 damage before calculating resistances. xD We're not even calculating if Veigar has the new Deathfire Touch mastery. Heck he still has another ability he can drop! xD

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20155 votes

Resistance matter quite a bit in this case. With lifesteal + damage as redic as it is on ADC's, if veigar doesn't burst them, he's hosed. Then again, that's assuming a 1 v 1, which isn't a likely case.

Kuroi86Oct 31, 20155 votes

...

You don't know Veigar do you?

Look him up.

He uh... kinda defines burst.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK9RK7l5ypo]

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20155 votes

For one, veigar's getting (or did he already?) nerfed, and two, he's reliant on his w to kill anyone with MR, which is reliant on his E, which Mercurial deals with.

flibitydooOct 31, 20156 votes

he got nerfs to his base damages

his scalings are still the same (1.0 ap ratio on ult and w)

overall, lategame he loses 50 base damage from a full rotation.

so in that 2330 dmg burst, he lost 50 base damage.

oh man, what an excellent nerf, good thing I had exactly 2281 hp. thank goodness veigar can't just stack even more ap and outscale my healthbar /s

In all serious, the events of that video would have still happened today under current balance (and don't forget that Corki builds Trinity force which gives him flat health which makes him slightly more tankier than the average adc)

CeonnOct 31, 201513 votes

Yeah, I'm calling BS there man. X3 That'd kill an ADC with 6 maws, especially considering there's another ability in his rotation, and each of these abilities will be getting an extra .1 or .2 AP scaling as a burn effect! I'm sorry, but if your ass gets hit by Q and R, you're not gonna get a chance to lifesteal. And if your argument is that his W can't hit without E, I'm damn sure the E cooldown is a -lot- less than Merc's cleanse.

The Bearded BardOct 31, 20154 votes

Gl getting in range before you're blown up. People like to forget that Veig's got low range and ADC typically have a beefy cc machine glued to them at all times.

SuicidingOct 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Rengar? Maybe

Elise and Veigar? Hell no. Like I said, mercurial is now an incredible item. Tied for Highest AD in the game, 12 LS, 35 MR, and of course the cleanse with MS active.

mercurial isn't going to save u from veigar ult lol.

Heal and ForgetOct 31, 201510 votes

This is an extreme exaggeration and you're simply pulling stats from the old standard builds. There is nothing to prevent AP assassins from doing what they need to do in a game, nothing to stop tanks from being tanky. You're taking these changes out of context of all the additional changes in the game, such as masteries changes, gold generation increase, and the new Mejai's Soulstealer.

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20157 votes

Maw and Mercurial are REALLY good items now, and zhonya's got nerfed. AP assassins are going to have serious issues. AD assassins are in a decent spot though.

The Bearded BardOct 31, 20153 votes

Nothing except the massive lifesteal, 12% damage reduction, maw of malmortious, and raw damage and range, of course.

They're giving an entirely offensive role way too many defensive options. They do the by far the most damage in the game and at a range farther than most mages. They shouldn't have little to no defensive options other than kiting.

RebonackOct 31, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qYF6EAQG,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2015-10-31T06:40:18.365+0000)

Nothing except the massive lifesteal, 12% damage reduction, maw of malmortious, and raw damage and range, of course.

They're giving an entirely offensive role way too many defensive options. They do the by far the most damage in the game and at a range farther than most mages. They shouldn't have little to no defensive options other than kiting.

The first ADC to show up in the top damage dealt is Koggy at number ten. Most damage is dominated by heavy AoE Mages.

Nice try, though.

RebonackOct 31, 20157 votes

Let's see if I can't figure out this build.

IE, Zerkers, Dancer, Whisper item of choice, Mercurial, and Bloodthirster.

So that's six. Looking at 255 bonus AD, 50% crit chance, +65% IAS, and 32% life steal. Crits deal 860ish damage, heal 15% extra, and pop IAS up to 85%. And most importantly, they only penetrate 40% of the target's bonus armor.

On Live, a champion with the exact same build would have 320ish AD, 55% crit, +75% IAS (90% with Fervor), but 20% lifesteal. And of course they're penetrating 35% of the target's total armor.

The former is certainly more capable of sustaining through damage.

But if both of them were trying to burn down an angry Garen charging toward them, I would put my money on the Live ADC.

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20152 votes

The extra utility of the new AS MS CRIT items, and the the fact that homeguard isn't part of boots, means boots are much easier to replace now.

PD would reduce garen's damage by 12%, and the whisper upgrade would make you do 15% increased damage against him, more than offsetting the reduced efficiency of the armour pen.

Realistically, against a garen you'd be dropping the mercurial for essence reaver, for 20% more crit, crazy mana, and 30% more CDR.

Zair UmbrasOct 31, 20154 votes

Realistically, if you're the ADC and fed and you're a villain, that 12% reduction isn't stopping that Garen's true damage ulti from taking you from 75-0. Reductions neeeeeever apply to True Damage. Wouldn't be very 'True' if it was reduce after all.

And Riot has said they want Essence to replace IE on caster-heavy champs like Corki and Ez. Now if only Ez's Q could crit....

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20151 votes

I mean, we can go back and forth on numbers, but that 12% reduction does matter, as does the increased sustain.

As far as Essence Reaver replacing IE on Casters? It doesn't, not really. As an early item, perhaps, but if you want ER, you want IE too. Its not an either/or, but an and. They are the two high AD items that give crit, and if you need both AD and Crit, you want them both.

Zair UmbrasOct 31, 20152 votes

I'm just saying what Riot had said about ER. They want people to buy ER INSTEAD of IE, not both at the same time. Given the fact you need an AS boost like Runaan's or PD as well, that'd be 3 items by themselves, then a LW and a LS. You'd be giving up a defensive item, LS, or the AS item, or the LW. That's... a pretty hard choice, really.

MatezoideOct 31, 20157 votes

What a time to have moved on to Doto.

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20158 votes

I mean, if you have issues with hyper carries, Dota is NOT your game.

MatezoideOct 31, 201515 votes

{quoted}

I mean, if you have issues with hyper carries, Dota is NOT your game.

Oh no no, i dont have issues with those.

But at least hyper carries are weak as shit early game and much easier to actually shut down. Not to mention, there are items to fuck them decently well even late game.

Those new PBE ADCs just seem way too nasty in the context of LoL.

RisenDarkKnightOct 31, 20152 votes

IDK items in DOTA are soooo strong. BKB: Spell immunity for 10 seconds! (ok it reduces to 5 seconds after a few uses of the active). There is also an item that grants 300 ad by itself (and ad/hp values are very similar in DOTA to leauge. Don't get me wrong, DOTA is better balanced than league, but items are sooo strong in DOTA. A champion with an expensive full build in DOTA is much much stronger than the equivalent in league due to the power of items/actives in DOTA. (They also have an item that refreshes all your cooldowns including you ult).

Clad in PlaidOct 31, 20153 votes

The 300 AD item drops on death. The enemy can pick it up and use it. It's a very risky item.

A Baked PotatuhOct 31, 20158 votes

Honestly, Dota carries ain't got shiz on top/jg/adc/mid in league in terms of snowballing. You'd have to have someone actively feeding a Void couriers for 20 minutes to make him do what Vayne/Riven/Darius/Etc can do with a handful of kills and a won lane.

Nausicäa Oct 31, 20155 votes

Ya i dont know what they were smoking when they came up with these changes

ChaosThiefOct 31, 201518 votes

Grave's cigar.

Because he can't have it now can he?

ZarkkastOct 31, 20154 votes

Adding lifesteal to Mercurial Scimitar was an extremely stupid idea.

ZglenQa SenpaiOct 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Maw and Mercurial are REALLY good items now, and zhonya's got nerfed. AP assassins are going to have serious issues. AD assassins are in a decent spot though.

AD assasins 4Head.

[{quoted}](name=Biff Manly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qYF6EAQG,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-10-31T03:57:45.436+0000) 50% lifesteal isn't gonna help you much when assassins make a beeline for your overpowered ass.

Not really the problem with life steal and this crit chance everywhere is that life steal apply to crit dmg not just ad. So if you hit for this 600 dmg with crit on bruiser while having this 50% life steal you get healed for 300hp. Yes mastery has 2 seconds cd BUT(!) assuming you have 1.5as you hit that crit twice every 3 seconds! So in 6 second fights, your 2 crits has 50% life steal.

[{quoted}](name=TSM Dyrus,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qYF6EAQG,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2015-10-31T10:09:16.348+0000)

I completely disagree that this is OP. You get VERY close to those thats currently. So only some extra lifesteal is what youre all moaning about. Like ADC's dont need more survivability in a BRUISER meta, who just dumpster ADC's.

Bruisers, tanks, apc and assasins are supposed to dumpster all adc's unless your support is his job in team fights, then you should dumpster everyone around! With this changes you actually don't need support becouse you have so much free sustain and overloaded key items.

WulfyOct 31, 20152 votes

Oh Thank God, ADC might actually be good again. RIP since season 2.

Aboylova92Oct 31, 20152 votes

At this point, why would I play a champion like Vel'koz with the massive buffs across the board for ADC's? Like when I first heard about the ADC rework and what they were doing to a few champs I thought "oh cool these will be fun to add in." And then you see the rest of the item and mastery changes, and now it just seems ridiculous.

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20152 votes

They outclass damage mids pretty hard.

CC control mages still have value, but Assassins, DPS, and Burst mages? Not really.

RebonackOct 31, 20154 votes

{quoted}

They outclass damage mids pretty hard.

CC control mages still have value, but Assassins, DPS, and Burst mages? Not really.

By all means, tell me who's going to be contributing more damage to a team fight.

Karthus with the new Deathfire capstone?

Or an ADC who has opted for the lifesteal capstone and has lost 60ish AD and all their armor pen against soft targets?

CasterGilgameshNov 1, 20151 votes

Assassins will have a field day if anyone tries to make a full adc team and a lot of the adc items got damage NERFs to compensate

MealReadytoEatNov 1, 20152 votes

Only AD assassins. AP items got nerfed, and Maw and Mercurial are now MUCH better.

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