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Vayne's e should only apply a stack of silver bolts if you collide with terrain.

MealReadytoEat··122 votes·3,538 views

Title say it all - Having her E apply the stack regardless of whether or not you collide with terrain seriously muddles the distinction between good use of it and bad, and makes the auto-q-e combo far too potent for its level of counter play. Admittedly it puts her e on CD, but most of the time you can't capitalize on that especially considering she just knocked you away.

I'd also like to see her passive(and ult) MS be based off how directly you are moving towards your opponent, like Mordekaiser's w does on PBE; Rather then getting all the MS if she is moving anywhere in the 180 degree arc towards an enemy (e.g. most of the time) she'd get the full ms when moving directly toward her opponent, but only half as much if she was moving at a 45 degree angle, for example. Admittedly, this might be harder to implement for her as her passive would need to check for everyone on their team, rather than just one like on Morde.

These are both fairly small nerfs to Vayne, but both clarify elements of her kit that are for the most part hidden power.

(Posted on Reddit here)

42 Comments

Prospector Pete10 votes

Upvoted. This wouldn't be too much of a nerf, and it would actually make her laning phase bad.

MealReadytoEat4 votes

Yea, right now she's winning 51% of games under 25 minutes. Bork and PD are just so good right now in both stats and build path, and she's the only ADC that utilizes them well as their first items. Her win rate is lowest, around 49.6% at 25 to 30 minutes, as her opponent gets the IE + PD combo going, but her win rate only goes up from there as she out scales them.

LOL Spammer4 votes

This is true. Vayne is strong right now and I think that even small nerfs like these will balance her but not make her unplayable.

MealReadytoEat2 votes

Agreed. Vayne is a champion that has pretty much always been popular even when she's statistically been pretty weak, largely due to the play potential of her kit, in a similar fashion to Lee Sin.

I'm not surprised in the least that she's insanely popular when she finally is quite strong (I'd say due to itemization more so than the meta), but I'm certainly tired of seeing her in every game. (And Jinx and Ahri, as well)

LOL Spammer2 votes

I also can't believe a post relating to vayne and being nerfed is getting downvoted. That is very unlike the community.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

I can't tell how sarcastic you are being, seems some Vayne threads get reasonably popular. Mention Ahri though, and after about 20 up votes they catch your scent and come in hordes to downvote.

LOL Spammer1 votes

Not being sarcastic at all, this thread was being downvoted earlier, and posts about vayne needing a nerf are never downvoted.

Dengeden1 votes

You'd still need to use your brain against that Vayne (rhymey). It's not an absurd nerf like "Vayne needs 5 AAs to proc silver bolts" or "Vayne halves her attack speed when she uses tumble" I remember seeing a "perfect" Lee Sin nerf here once. Don't remember the exact wording but he had a maximum of 150 base damage (rank 5) on his basic abilities and something like 100/200/300 on his ult (or worse).

MealReadytoEat2 votes

I'm a little sad when Riot totally guts a champion and forgets about them for a year(s) like they did Olaf, Urgot, Eve, and most recently Ryze. I doubt they'd do it to Vayne though, as her player base is so large.

LOL Spammer2 votes

I feel olaf is reasonably strong right now. At least in my elo which isn't really saying much tho but the others I agree.

MealReadytoEat2 votes

Oh yea, that's cause he waited his year and got reworked, then buffed, and now he's got some good itemization too as of 5.16.

Urgot's been waiting since July 2012 to be relevant again, although they have given him a few increments of power back.

Dengeden1 votes

Olaf and Urgot are more than fine, even if the latter is out of the meta. Ryze... dunno, I guess he takes too long to scale up, even if his kit should still allow him to be the bane of all melee top laners.

Daedalus8713 votes

I think a better change would be to remove the AA reset from Tumble.

That skill alone is better than some champions entire kits (as long as you include the stealth).

Egyptian1 votes

it only resets aa if you tumble into t wall, so it would be more of a bug fix rather than a change

MealReadytoEat1 votes

It resets the AA always, it just has a fairly long cast time so it only lets you attack faster when your attack speed is still fairly low.

Gorgannan2 votes

I'd prefer they waste the mana for the one silver bolt proc.

Lady Hammerlock2 votes

i have another idea for nerf well 2 actually 1.attack speed from 0.656 to 0.644 2.passive now starts at 15 move speed and goes to 20/25/30 at lvl 6/11/16

Blacknemesist2 votes

Why not make her silver bolts's true damage and active ability instead? Like if you procc the silver bolts effect(3rd hit) the CD on the active is reduced so she can still kill tanks but not benefit passively from something that proccs almost every second. Why does Draven have to use his Q and W and catch his axes to get nowhere near the effectiveness of 2 passive abilities on vayne? Just saying...

Loken Stoneheart1 votes

{quoted}

Why not make her silver bolts's true damage and active ability instead? Like if you procc the silver bolts effect(3rd hit) the CD on the active is reduced so she can still kill tanks but not benefit passively from something that proccs almost every second. Why does Draven have to use his Q and W and catch his axes to get nowhere near the effectiveness of 2 passive abilities on vayne? Just saying...

Well, I don't think Vayne is particularly unfair(like, its really easy to deal with her stealth since the trinkets came out, and her self-peel isn't that bad compared to a lot of other champions-- especially given her shorter range), but its because they didn't like Draven so they gutted what made him strong to begin with, his bleed, and instead gave him an awful TF passive.

qetzel1 votes

I like the first nerf. It identifies a problem (a stronger laning phase than a hypercarry should have) and proposes a fix. Good job.

LVL 5 PORO1 votes

This would be a good change.

Rundus11 votes

This = What Vayne needs to have done to her.

Good job op. You done good.

Karn Bishop1 votes

Agreed, this is a smart change, pity riots too busy nerfing eves balanced win/loss rate to try it out.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

Yea, I have no clue what that's about. She seems fine in solo queue, and as far as I know that's always where Eve's been a problem

LadyRenly1 votes

E applies silver bolts? all this time...LOL

hi im alphonse1 votes

Looks OK, right now from what I see she kinda has the same problem as jayce when his E was bonkers where your trading tool was a knockback making you almost untouchable. I almost never go bot, and I admittedly might be wrong about condemn, but this looks like a good nerf for bringing her in line rather than dumpstering her.

BuzzinTate1 votes

especially since she can roll every 2 seconds when she ults anyways, she barely needs it to kite.

Dengeden1 votes

Yeah no, there's a reason Vayne gets camped in high elo.

Learning moment1 votes

This is a horrible idea, this would gut her lol.... her E has a massive cool down and she would have no compensation for team fighting. EDIT: missread.... thought you said only players who get E'd to a wall can get stacks of silver bolts, thats a decent nerf i guess, i was thinking about straight up taking away the damage from E.

Plastic Mem0ries1 votes

I admit, I main Vayne and this should happen. It's much too easy to simply Q, AA, E and do that combo to push them out of lane and harass them. This'll bring a bigger skillcap to vayne, making her not as OP as she is, but still in the OP category. It's all about baby steps.

Psi211 votes

Another Tankie DPS player complaining how the game is not easy enough for them to just crash in to a team fight and feel good about their damage.

No... they want a champ that has not had their kit changed from release to be changed to meet their lax and skill less play style.

God forbid we get a more balanced meta where the tank busters aren't forced out because this is 2011 all over again.

MealReadytoEat2 votes

Vayne has received a steady slew of small buffs, and large buffs to her itemization. That being said, I don't think she's that broken or overpowered, but I am tired of seeing her in nearly every game.

Psi212 votes

{quoted}

Vayne has received a steady slew of small buffs, and large buffs to her itemization. That being said, I don't think she's that broken or overpowered, but I am tired of seeing her in nearly every game.

You must mean these NERFING Patches:

Patch 1.0.0.118b Movement speed reduced to 305 from 310 Range decreased to 550 from 555 Tumble mana cost increased to 40 from 35 Silver Bolts base damage reduced to 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 from 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 Condemn base damage reduced to 50 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 210 from 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220

Patch 1.0.0.120 Silver-Tipped Bolts will no longer interact with spell shields Tumble bonus damage reduced to 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 /60% from 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 / 75% Condemn damage reduced to 45 / 80 / 115 / 150 / 185 form 50 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 210 Final Hour

Movement speed bonus now triples instead of quadruples Attack damage reduced to 25 / 40 / 55 from 35 / 55 / 75

Patch 1.0.0.122 Fixed a bug where Silver Bolts would go through blind effects

Patch 1.0.0.132 Base movement speed reduced to 300 from 305 Night Hunter movement speed reduced to 30 from 40 Tumble bonus damage reduced to 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% from 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60% Final Hour Tumble stealth duration reduced to 1 second from 1.5

Patch 3.10 Condemn Fixed a bug where the cast range was longer than intended (650 instead of 550) Final Hour Cooldown increased to 100/85/70 from 70 seconds

Wait here are some BUFFs if you can call them that:

Patch 4.13 General ATTACK SPEED PER LEVEL: 3.1 ⇒ 4.0

R - Final Hour WHOOPS: Fixed a bug where Tumble had an extra +0.1 attack damage ratio while Final Hour was active (now correctly matches Tumble's AD ratios) COMPENSATION FOR THE ABOVE: Final Hour grants a bonus 25/40/55 ⇒ 30/50/70 attack damage throughout its duration

Patch 5.14 Q - Tumble

COOLDOWN: Begins upon hitting a target ⇒ Begins upon launching the attack
GOT THE RESET: Tumble's attack will be consumed even if the target becomes invulnerable mid-flight

And tell me was the buffs to her itemization the return of BloodThirster to what it was before it was nerfed?

Maybe the Blade of the Ruined King?

Or Maybe the nerf to Infinity Edge? Patch v5.1

CRITICAL STRIKE CHANCE: 25% ⇒ 20%

Or maybe the out landish claim.. Black Cleaver: Where Last Whisper provides more raw percent-based armor piercing than the full six The Black Cleaver stacks (35% to 30%, respectively). Hence the reason it is used on Vayne. But Last Whisper has been around longer than Vayne...

So what is this itemization you speak of?

No sorry I stand by what I said before:

"Another Tankie DPS player complaining how the game is not easy enough for them to just crash in to a team fight and feel good about their damage.

No... they want a champ that has not had their kit changed from release to be changed to meet their lax and skill less play style.

God forbid we get a more balanced meta where the tank busters aren't forced out because this is 2011 all over again."

MealReadytoEat2 votes

If you think the nerf to IE hurt her, you are delusional. She's the only ADC that gets it AFTER PD, which, by the way, was buffed. She's the only ADC that can rush Bork then PD effectively, they are both really strong right now, and have real easy build paths.

That's why itemization is so strong on her right now.

Psi213 votes

{quoted}

If you think the nerf to IE hurt her, you are delusional. She's the only ADC that gets it AFTER PD, which, by the way, was buffed. She's the only ADC that can rush Bork then PD effectively, they are both really strong right now, and have real easy build paths.

That's why itemization is so strong on her right now.

Wait Wait... So you are glancing over the nerf to IE... saying that the lose of crit can be picked up on the Phantom Dancer. A wash on buff and/or item nerf.

So your saying the Blade of the Ruined King is the "only" itemization buff she received that put her over the top?

Oh please ...

Your whole thread is the same tired dribble the Tankie DPS players have been chanting since the Deja vu buff to Tankie DPS of 2015.

AKA the same dribble they spouted on her release in 2011 to combat.... guess what... TANKIE DPS!

It took a long time to bring Tankie DPS down in popularity then the youthful inexperienced new balancing team of 2015. Removed the DFG and the nerf to burst mages have made Tankie DPS is toxic yet again.
Along with buffs to masteries/itemization/tankie champs.

One Bind Morgana1 votes

{quoted}

Wait Wait... So you are glancing over the nerf to IE... saying that the lose of crit can be picked up on the Phantom Dancer. A wash on buff and/or item nerf.

So your saying the Blade of the Ruined King is the "only" itemization buff she received that put her over the top?

Oh please ...

Your whole thread is the same tired dribble the Tankie DPS players have been chanting since the Deja vu buff to Tankie DPS of 2015.

AKA the same dribble they spouted on her release in 2011 to combat.... guess what... TANKIE DPS!

It took a long time to bring Tankie DPS down in popularity then the youthful inexperienced new balancing team of 2015. Removed the DFG and the nerf to burst mages have made Tankie DPS is toxic yet again.
Along with buffs to masteries/itemization/tankie champs.

ur confused as fuck if u think dfg/burst mages did anything to bruisers

MealReadytoEat1 votes

Buffing PD at the cost of IE is a huge buff for Vayne, the only ADC that gets PD before IE.

Keevalroy1 votes

I'm a Vayne player - I wouldn't mind this change...or we could ya know, nerf the range of BoRK's active since that's what pushed her over the edge anyway.

All Day Tay Tay1 votes

consider yourself lucky for how it is now. it used to proc on cast AND if you hit the wall. so you could get 2 stacks on 1 ability

Jefftiffy1 votes

Shh.. no one tell the OP that it used to apply 2 stacks (on pinning someone to a wall as well as initial) and you used to be able to get an aa off as they flew away. Boy you think that she's bad now? But anyways, the point of this is you can't just keep gutting her synergy. It's what makes Vayne, Vayne. I can see hitting her early game and having it scale the same, but just straight up nerfing her for self peeling is kind of dumb.

The key to fixing Vayne is to push her late game further back. Whether it's through raising BotRK's cost (also helping with the devourer problem) or lowering her flat true damage but having it scale to the same or even somewhat lower. Not sure if people realize that the real problem is that BotRK had 2 buffs to it with very little to push it back into line (and 1 change where it got more range and got something else nerfed). But it had its build path buffed, so it takes up less inventory space and it contributes more before it is build (TY recurve bow). It also had healing added to the passive damage for free. Meaning that it really needs to be tuned up a bit to be a little bit less early game.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

Yea, I remember how Vayne's e used to work with the auto queuing, but I also remember when she had poor itemization compared to every other ADC, which is what held her back. Now its the opposite, as you address, and I addressed in earlier comments.

dragonboytsubasa1 votes

Upvoted, these are actually some reasonable nerfs. Sure tank users will still complain but that's their problem, Vayne still has her weaknesses and they (as well as their teammates) should know how to exploit them.

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