@Riot Replace Overbearing Arrogance with Logic

LaughingStapler··82 votes·3,241 views

"Base Attack Speed lowered to 0.558 (down from 0.665)"

I'm not arguing that KogMaw doesn't need a nerf but the way they're nerfing Kog showcases a typical inability to revert bad changes on Riot's part. It actually really makes me lose hope in them because it demonstrates an arrogance and lack of flexibility that is rare to see for a professional in any type of work. Nerfing Kog's base AS hurts every build and role for Kog while forcing you to max W even more than before regardless of whether you're up vs very tanky teams or squishy ones. It also hurts his scaling with AS runes, items or any other source so it takes a champion that was supposed to be good late game and makes him FAR worse than even before the 6.3 changes.

Keeping AS on Q made sense before to make Kog choose between less downtime and more range or more damage but less safety. It gated his power and gave him a more typical hypercarry curve. They had a really dumb idea to put AS on W and give him access to his level 18 power at level 13. Now, instead of accepting this and being smart enough to revert it, they're moving forward with it but nerfing Kog's scaling. Kog players chose him because they wanted an immobile hypercarry with massive damage and good scaling, not another mid game carry. Having AS on Q was a great way of gating his power and making Kog decide whether he wants more burst and damage or higher range as well as uptime. All they had to do before was reduce the ult. mana cost slightly and he was fine for both mid (a role left in the dust despite promises to address it) and bot.

47 Comments

Hayaishi262 votes

it's like Riot can't admit they fuck up sometimes.

Heckin Support28 votes

{quoted}

it's like Riot can't admit they fuck up sometimes.

It's like they can't admit they fucked up? They won't admit they fucked up and its happened so many times. Riot would rather delete something and act like it never happened (dominion), keep it nerfed enough because they can't balance it right (olaf) and hope people just forget about the champion (urgot).

A Miss Fortune2 votes

They actually buffed Urgot by 2 AD and also gave him a fear on his ultimate...that they nerfed pre season.

Messaiga1 votes

When did they nerf Urgot's ultimate? I cannot find anything on that.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

They changed it so instead of him gaining a huge chunk of AR and MR, instead it's a flat amount of damage ignored. Doing the math Urgot with a lot of his core builds would ultimately ignore more damage if they kept the bonus AR/MR he got from it. It wasn't a huge nerf but it was kind of bm.

TeCoolMage8 votes

I'm pretty sure he got a % damage reduction not flat damage reduction.

"DAMAGE REDUCTION: 30 / 40 / 50%"

It's very hard to say no to halving your damage, it's kinda why Kassadin is anti mage, because % damage reduction beats the resistances by far.

Dengeden1 votes

So a buff to his early and a nerf to his late?

elon wątroba1 votes

It's buff to his late aswell, everyone is building armor/mres penetrating items.

Pika3103 votes

So we're just ignoring the existence of Last Whisper and Void Staff? That's what we're doing now? Okay, I understand.

Canastus14 votes

The worst example for that kind of behavior has to be Cassiopeia's rework, by far.Cassiopeia

Pika31012 votes

If that's the worst example, then it has to mean Sona's is definitely a close 2nd.Sona

Dextix LT18 votes

Mordekaiser "I stole other peoples souls, now Riot stole mine"

Dengeden3 votes

People still pretend Olaf isn't a decent top and jungle pick because of some hard nerfs to his kit that happened during the Stone Age?

Weird btw, I coulda sworn I saw Urgot buffs on PBE, musta been a bug.

La Barbotte1 votes

Mordekaiser Fiora Sion Poppy tell me more item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070

ForeverLaxx18 votes

Actually, if history will show us anything, they will eventually revert their skill changes while keeping all the nerfs that exist only because of a now impossible to leverage build. Of course, they won't say its a reversion, because it will occur a year or two from now and they'll hide it under the guise of "we want Kog players to make a choice in lane for less downtime and more range, or more damage but less safety." Riot doesn't like to say they were wrong and will do whatever they can to keep a bad change until enough time passes that a reversion won't look like one anymore. Nocturne's Ult range on rank 1 was nerfed because players didn't want to ward, and that only got reverted with the introduction of trinkets. Garen got his old W mechanics back after they reworked him to his current form, which was only changed in the first place because Riot felt like changing it for some reason. I will note here that in these two cases, Riot did call them reversions, but in a joking manner and without any real context or true justification. In effect, they wouldn't admit that Nocturne was only nerfed because of bad player habits and Garen's change was pointless.

To my knowledge, there has only been three instances of Riot reverting a change almost immediately after implementation, and each case was in response to extreme community backlash rather than an admittance of error. The first was when Riot tried to do something to reign in Lee Sin, the second was ward-hopping (targeted at Lee again, but hitting Jax and Kat which caused most of the outrage), and finally a Shunpo positioning change for Katarina that changed depending on whether you used Killer Instincts first or not (I still remember the phrase "separate the good players from the great players", a phrase that I despise and they often use to justify bad changes.)

LaughingStapler9 votes

Nj summarizing my whole post in one line. ;) If Riot fucks up, they will just ignore the fuckup and work from it instead of going back and removing the fuckup.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

Right because Kog was just the epitome of balance before these changes. You're right though they should revert this change and see if they cant introduce another change that will break him in a different way. Lets just keep going back and forth between OP and UP patch after patch until we nail it, that will surely bring stability.

Do you honestly just think of everything in a vacuum when making balance suggestions. Because if this is the best you got I will gladly take Riots balance team over you.

LaughingStapler5 votes

{quoted}

Right because Kog was just the epitome of balance before these changes. You're right though they should revert this change and see if they cant introduce another change that will break him in a different way. Lets just keep going back and forth between OP and UP patch after patch until we nail it, that will surely bring stability.

Do you honestly just think of everything in a vacuum when making balance suggestions. Because if this is the best you got I will gladly take Riots balance team over you.

None of what you wrote makes any sense or has any relevance to what was posted. You literally just ranted 2 paragraphs without saying anything that I can discern as meaningful. Kog ADC was slightly UP before 6.3 and didn't need such a massive change. A slightly reduced ult. mana cost for example would probably have been enough to help his ADC a tiny bit and making mid more viable again.

YCitizenSnipsY2 votes

Yeah Riot should admit they fucked up and revert Kog, cause he was so balanced before these buffs were introduced.

Oh wait he wasn't, he was really weak which is why he was giving buffs in the first place. But your right, lets go backwards to where he was really weak again, then afterwards we can see how Riot can break him again.

It makes since why my comment was saying nothing to you, you only think of things in a vacuum.

Edit: nice edit.

Mid lane Kog Maw isn't his intended role and Riot doesn't balance around an off meta role until the champion becomes a problem in one. Bot lane is where he belongs and all balance decisions should be done to help him perform in his intended role. Also mana cost wasn't the reason Kog couldn't compete with other ADC early and was never reaching his late game status. Nice band aid fix though really great balance idea's you have their, its a wonder Riot doesn't listen to you ./s

atomicwit2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah Riot should admit they fucked up and revert Kog, cause he was so balanced before these buffs were introduced.

Oh wait he wasn't, he was really weak which is why he was giving buffs in the first place. But your right, lets go backwards to where he was really weak again, then afterwards we can see how Riot can break him again.

It makes since why my comment was saying nothing to you, you only think of things in a vacuum.

It's not just weak vs strong, it's how his design functions. Switching AS to W is the only buff possible and that is one of the least consistent ways to make him stronger since it spikes early in mid-game. It also does nothing for mid Kog who was struggling even more than ADC ever since the rework.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah Riot should admit they fucked up and revert Kog, cause he was so balanced before these buffs were introduced.

Oh wait he wasn't, he was really weak which is why he was giving buffs in the first place. But your right, lets go backwards to where he was really weak again, then afterwards we can see how Riot can break him again.

Yes he was.

While his pick rate was non-existent, Kog was a decent (though not overwhelming) pick. Balanced, if you will. He's been pretty good since the buff to Fervor of Battle. Still doesn't fit the hyper-carry curve Riot keeps saying he's supposed to have, though.

PrometheS3 votes

{quoted}

Yeah Riot should admit they fucked up and revert Kog, cause he was so balanced before these buffs were introduced.

Oh wait he wasn't, he was really weak which is why he was giving buffs in the first place. But your right, lets go backwards to where he was really weak again, then afterwards we can see how Riot can break him again.

It makes since why my comment was saying nothing to you, you only think of things in a vacuum.

Edit: nice edit.

Mid lane Kog Maw isn't his intended role and Riot doesn't balance around an off meta role until the champion becomes a problem in one. Bot lane is where he belongs and all balance decisions should be done to help him perform in his intended role. Also mana cost wasn't the reason Kog couldn't compete with other ADC early and was never reaching his late game status. Nice band aid fix though really great balance idea's you have their, its a wonder Riot doesn't listen to you ./s

Mid lane has always been a role for Kog in the past and it has just as much right to exist as any other. He has AP scaling on literally every ability and even his empowered autos do magic damage. I see no reason why it should be a second class citizen. There are many examples of champions which have always played multiple lanes and Riot understands that. Kayle (everything except ADC), Rengar (top/jg), Wukong (top/jg/some mid), Pantheon (top/jg/mid), Lulu (everything other than ADC), etc. I could probably write a whole page with such examples. AP Kog was an interesting and unique playstyle with major weaknesses but also incredible strengths. I don't want to play him in the ADC style mid too and nor is that very viable either. Getting up close to a Zed or LB to W them is way riskier than poking (which he sucks at now but still).

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

And every example you can name is balanced around their intended role, not the off meta one.

Just one example I can think of off the top of my head, what did Riot do with Ekko? Did they balance him for a tank jungle or did they balance him for his mid laning capabilities?

Kitsuki051 votes

he's basically trying to explain that you don't create change by constantly undoing whatever it is you did before, it is a process. You take one step, see how that pans out; then you make another step. Don't make a decision blindly and then take a step back to make another blind decision.

Kitsuki051 votes

if you agree with that you are defeating your own argument. Riot acknowledged dominion as a mistake and have decided to revert it. Thus, there is evidence they are willing to undo things they see as a mistake. The problem here is that you don't agree with Riot on what is and isn't a mistake. You are letting your personal bias explain decisions made by others.

BetaDude401 votes

That's not a revert. That's flat-out deleting.

The equivalent on a champion would be if Riot got frustrated with Kog and permanently removed him from the game (which is basically what they did to Dominion).

Imagine the shitstorm that would come out of that

Ràinbow1 votes

i.e. Fiora's art and models.

Calabok4 votes

Good, Nerf that slime shooter

LaughingStapler12 votes

{quoted}

Good, Nerf that slime shooter

I'm not arguing against him getting nerfed but this is the wrong direction for it. They could just revert the changes in 6.3 and lower the ult. mana cost slightly to compensate. They could also reduce the early AS given on W for Live etc. There are about a dozen ways to nerf him which are all far more consistent with his ideal power curve and identity.

LittleBlast4 votes

They stated that the number was low by mistake, ita actually going to .625 or something iirc

TheRealBaz3 votes

its being set to .625

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Jc9EAkmU-about-kogmaw-changes-on-pbe-meddler?comment=0004

They're planning on bringing it to .625 which, if you remember, was what his AS was before they buffed it in patch 5.22.

Rikari2 votes

Riot doesn't "revert" anything. No one is sure whether its arrogance or a new direction.

Pika3107 votes

Well, considering they've preached multiple times in the past that they would do reverts without a second thought if it turned out to be an overall bad decision, yet they never do despite countless massive mistakes.

I'm leaning towards Arrogance.

Dengeden2 votes

I'm a bit curious if they can fix that Charlie Foxtrot of a champion with something other than a (full) revert (which I'm a huge advocate of). That being said, looks like people already forgot that standard pre-rework Kog maxed his abilities in that order. Funny.

You wanna talk arrogance though? Find me an upvoted thread that admits it's hard to keep a game with 2 teams and identical objectives balanced and interesting.

Bladerunner77771 votes

I actually tried jungle kog in 6.2 and I enjoyed it. He was a beast after he got a few items

I think his only problems (for adc kog) is being too easy to kill early on so maybe increasing his E slow early on would have been enough

IS1a73861909e61174d7dc21 votes

kog easy to kill

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I would be very surprised if this was the only change to come out for Kog this PBE cycle. Patience friend.

PeachsProperty1 votes

"we want koggles to be a machine gun"

well now we are gonna nerf that casue people dont like it so much...well...there goes our time wasted from our work on him.

Jasiwel1 votes

That value is actually just a testing prompt.

The real change is .665 -> .625.

Eevee In A Jar1 votes

Riot really doesn't know what they are doing; they just tweak things around hoping (in theory) it would work a certain way so it's a method of trial and error. They must have a belief that going backwards is never a good idea. I don't know about that. They made Xin powerful again. As if we needed another cancerous easy to play champ in fotm.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

its being changed to .625, his older base attack speed the current nerf you see is just something they had in a play test internally.

Dealth1 votes

The attack speed reduction was a mistake in the PBE, the actual amount is about .615. I agree with your other points though.

PixTron1 votes

Lez go to Overwatch, boyz! YEEEEHAAWWWW!

PixTron1 votes

It's time to go to Overwatch, boyz!

*onlywatch

sry

LoLKiru1 votes

If riot wanted to make him a stronger hypercarry; wouldn't it probably be a good idea to give him another steroid (given that most hypercarries have more than 1 generally)

Perhaps a further bonus onhit effect for his autos on his E or R? That way, to achieve his true maximum potential Kog would need to be AT LEAST level 16 (if it was on his ult; 18 if it was on his E)

Would also force Kog to choose between ranking up W for the range and safety it provides him (and the onhit damage), Q for his attack speed steroid and the armor / mr shread, and E / R for the bonus onhit.

Really the only issue Koggles had pre-buff was that he could get dumpstered in lane pretty hard since his trades were usually laughable unless you took multiple autos from him, but making him a lane bully isn't the answer.

Vanjie1 votes

OOOO God forbid they fix a mistake in a timely manner. They'll do something about it in five patches. Right now they are spending way to much time with Soraka.

More from Gameplay

More by LaughingStapler