There is not a single aspect on Kassadin which wasn't nerfed purely because of his mobility

Visigoth·Jul 30, 2015·117 votes·6,143 views

His mobility which already had its own huge drawbacks. Then he gets nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed and then reworked to finally become unplayable. He's had his fucking movespeed nerfed at times.

But can dash every auto attack and gets 4 resourceless, low CD dashes, an AD scaling shield, and AoE knockup and stun, an AD and attack range steroid. Huge AD scalings. And an AoE execute.

But Kassadin gets to have mediocre mobility, which costs tons of mana, shit damage and pretty bad defenses. Seems fair.

144 Comments

CreationFlawJul 30, 201542 votes

"But he's an assassin"

Yeah, riven is basically a tanky assassin that has a knockup, stun, and a long ranged execute.

A kalista that rushes damage over movement speed has so much damage it's scary, and you still won't catch the bitch.

LadyRenlyJul 31, 201524 votes

I don't get how Kass is even considered an assassin. You simply cannot just build straight damage like Talon or Katarina.

AnidanJul 31, 20152 votes

I think assassin can also be used to refer to the fact that the champion can chase really well, making it very hard to escape them or their damage.

Basically: he's classified as an assassin because Riot's simplified classing system has no idea where to place several champions, himself included. Other champions being Yi, Trynd, Yasuo, Nocturne and Fiora - of whom, two are classified as assassins primarily and fighters secondary (Master Yi and Nocturne) and 3 are Fighter primary and Assassin secondary (Tryndamere, Yasuo, Fiora). Despite the fact that they're largely treated as melee carries by the player-base and Riot themselves.

Nocturne is probably the most confusing of them because his kit wants him to play like both a dueling carry and a bruiser, but he can't do either particularly well. Likewise, Kassadin wants to burst, chase and possibly duel but also can't.

If we used DotA's classing system, he'd probably have the same classification as Slark: Escape. Because damn is he good at it, and his escape abilities can also be used offensively, similar to Slark. And like Slark, both are can be exceedingly difficult to lock down. Less assassin, more 'just plain mobile.'

VerandureJul 31, 20152 votes

Don't forget that Malzahar is considered an assassin. It's probably the lack of a "burst mage" title that forces them into that classification

junglerboy16Jul 31, 20157 votes

The fact that Kass is still called an assassin is just a throwback to when he actually had significant burst. At this point, he is mostly a DPS mage since he relies on low cooldowns and sticking to targets rather than his old style of instantly appearing behind you, one-shotting you, and disappearing again.

ZedexJul 31, 20152 votes

"Riven is a tanky assassin"

I didn't realize building all DPS items made you a tank on a mechanic intensive champ.

Focus TeemoAug 1, 20153 votes

'Mechanic intensive champion" he says...

83sqojSQ6jAug 1, 20152 votes

I've seen plenty of bad rivens in my day.

Focus TeemoAug 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I've seen plenty of bad rivens in my day.

I've seen plenty of bad everything... From Vayne and Lee sin to Garen and Taric.

Buttèred BiscuitJul 31, 201514 votes

I play as kassadin and have no problem getting 10+ kills on him. You basically have to work around his nerfs. Seriously did you try to play him, or did try to play him as if he wasn't nerfed? If ya did that then yes he sucks, but if you take the time to learn his weaknesses and try to turn them into strengths Kass is just fine. I've played Kass when he had his silence, sure I miss it, but seriously that 2 sec of silence gave him enough time to kill the champion and they couldn't counter that which is really unfair. Really hate it when Riot nerfs a champ, for good reason, and everyone throws a hissy fit. Yes I do understand that Riven needs some nerfs, but if you can shut her down in lane she isn't that great.

Spicy RiceJul 31, 20153 votes

Name 1 meta mage who you can assassinate as kassadin, assuming equal skill level and equal gold

macromiteJul 31, 20152 votes

mages in the meta? that's a funny joke.

gl0hs0zgfJul 31, 20155 votes

You're not listening to what DrFreis is saying. You want Kassadin to assassinate, but that's not what he does now. He's more of a fighter that needs to stick on his target and smack 'em a few times with his void blade. That's what he meant when he said

Did [you] try to play him as if he wasn't nerfed? If ya did that then yes he sucks, but if you take hte time to learn his weaknesses and try to turn them into strengths Kass is just fine.

Though I've never had trouble kicking AP Ekko's ass as KassaWIN

junglerboy16Jul 31, 201510 votes

The reason he kept getting nerfed is that he was riding on well over a year (maybe even two) of being perma-banned for his (then unparalleled) mobility on top of his (then insane) damage and his (then utterly oppressive) CC. He needed all the nerfs he's gotten, not because he was OP after the rework, but so that his longstanding reputation as the broken champion of League could die away and allow room for them to actually pull together a real rework in the future, not some half baked gutting. Right now we're just stuck in that period where any slight buff makes him suddenly seem like he's gonna become instantly OP, even when it won't, because his reputation is still lingering.

a blonde guyJul 31, 20155 votes

http://lolfall.net/upload/images/gif/2013/04/kassadin_press_r_2013-04-01_08-00-06.gif

BeoridasJul 31, 20155 votes

From an other thread i posted:

i never like the circle around nerfs that has been riot balance policies the past years.

Kassadin didnt deserved the nerfs until the wrecked tank items, bruiser meta and nerfed all his laning opponents...what was supposed to happen?

Here is what kassadin payed for his mobility:

-Huge damage nerfs -abilities CD nerfs -Combo nerfs (R dmg switched to W) -Ap ratios Nerfs -Mana Costs nerfs -R gating nerfs -Silence removed -MR scaling removal -base armor nerfs -R CD nerfs -E slow nerfs -attack speed passive nerfs -R range nerfs -(base health nerfs if im not mistaken)

You wanna know the worst of it? Its that he was already paying for his mobility.

R costs were after 5 casts= 1500 mana (afterwards it becomes 2100) Today its: 1550 (afterwards it becomes 2350)

But it used to be much much worse.

His E is used only after 6 spells done. (which means you cannot trade all the time, or do your combo all the time) Altho its easier in team fights, you still got a cd on it--AND an animation that shows your E is available. All at high costs.

Hes just a complete mess with only weaknesses and two slight notable strenghts. No he doesnt truly counter mages. Galio gets better dmg and resistance than he does.

His mobility is also not on par to leblanc, fizz, nidalee and ulti yi. I get catched by a lot of different champs. even after 16.

Lets not even talk about ryze, olaf and veigar.

He paid his for his mobility with everything hes got, mana, and he paid his mobility with his mobility...go figure.

Here is AT LEAST 3 things that should happen:

1.Bring back base dmg to at least 200-210. 2.MR scaling back...seriously....fizz has it and is therefore more magic resistant than kass. 3. If the silence is to be brought back: Since Riot issue is how easy it is for him to use it (even tho there is tons of counter to it as a soft cc like QSS, mikaels) Then why not put it to its W or R if you want to add risks for using it or his E since its a cone skill shots he doesnt get all the time.

honorable mention to his Q-E CD.

X SkeletonCandyJul 30, 20154 votes

I wouldn't call his mobility mediocre, but it's definitely not as good as Riven's or Kalista's, that's for sure. Kassadin used to be unbearable to play against, but now he's just unbearable to play.

yukonlJul 31, 20154 votes

His Q got nerfed not because he was super mobile, but because a point and click ranged high damage 2 second silence was dumb as hell.

KayleeTJul 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

His Q got nerfed not because he was super mobile, but because a point and click ranged high damage 2 second silence was dumb as hell.

hes not talking about season 3 kass being in a good spot, he is talking about early season 5 kass

KuchikiJul 31, 20154 votes

Riven is not tanky, has the worst health regeneration too.

Hellish ProphecyJul 31, 20154 votes

facepalm Alright let's get this out of the way. Fuck the HP regen. Riven can snowball fairly well, she has an AD scaling shield, LOW CD's, an AOE stun for anyone who gets too close, 3 dashes, a knockup, and an AOE execute ult, AND an AD steroid. Plus with the animation cancelling...it's annoying but that's not my problem. Quite simply? If you know how the fight the every day Riven you can fuck one up....early game. Considering the everyday Riven is pretty shitty. I mean my first game with Riven I didn't do INSANELY well, but I was still a threat. But my talent for learning fast may have played a part. Anyway, Riven CAN BE tanky as fuck AND she can deal full damage and destroy someone in one combo OR she can build both and be fed Darius-level bruiser. Saying "Riven is not tanky" is highly incorrect. If you can build and make Master Yi tanky (off-meta I know) and still do decent damage you especially can make Riven tanky. stack that on with an AD scaling shield on a low CD that also accounts for a dash and yeah....she's going to be pretty fucking hard to kill. The biggest thing I can say in Riven's defense is only people who know Riven inside and out can unlock her true potential, otherwise it's just another asshole behind a computer screen.

EDIT: Because I know how stupid the boards can be, feel free to bring my ELO into this. Doesn't change the fact that if some Diamond said this (which I have flaws in my statement( you would bow down to it.

RenailleJul 30, 20153 votes

Kassadin can actually teamfight and has much stronger post 6 roams.

Riven can't team fight for shit unless fed.

CreationFlawJul 30, 201517 votes

{quoted}

Kassadin can actually teamfight and has much stronger post 6 roams.

Riven can't team fight for shit unless fed.

Wait what? It's practically vice versa on that shit. Riven stuns 2-3 people and then knocks two others up and then ults and kills two squishies.

AnidanJul 31, 20152 votes

To be fair: in this meta if any team at all is that clumped up together they were gonna lose whether Riven was there or not. That's just piss-poor positioning on their part. I mean, for three people to get stunned by a 135-radius stun effect, and two more to get knocked up by a 200-radius knock-up... that's impressively bad positioning.

Not defending her, just sayin'.

Tails DollAug 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

To be fair: in this meta if any team at all is that clumped up together they were gonna lose whether Riven was there or not. That's just piss-poor positioning on their part. I mean, for three people to get stunned by a 135-radius stun effect, and two more to get knocked up by a 200-radius knock-up... that's impressively bad positioning.

Not defending her, just sayin'.

Yeah because how many times have we seen pros group for Ori's ball to hit at least 3/4 people. We never see that happening right?

MatezoideJul 30, 20151 votes

If you keep trying to initiate fights as Riven, no shit you are getting killed in team fights.

NA DarklarikAug 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you keep trying to initiate fights as Riven, no shit you are getting killed in team fights.

Please look up "BoxBox" on youtube and shut the hell up...

MatezoideAug 1, 20152 votes

If you keep trying to initiate fights as Riven while behind and without being a diamond/challenger/whatever Riven main, no shit you are getting killed in team fights.

There, are you happy now, princess? He said Riven cant team fight at all for shit when she isnt ahead, tell that to him.

NA DarklarikAug 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If you keep trying to initiate fights as Riven while behind and without being a diamond/challenger/whatever Riven main, no shit you are getting killed in team fights.

There, are you happy now, princess? He said Riven cant team fight at all for shit when she isnt ahead, tell that to him.

Yes she can. Shes broken period.

Thresh Outta FuxJul 31, 201514 votes

{quoted}

Kassadin can actually teamfight and has much stronger post 6 roams.

Riven can't team fight for shit unless fed.

I logged in just to downvote this comment.

Bull freaking horse shit. All you need to do is not die as Riven, and you're a-okie. If you can't wreck with that, then you might want to plug in your keyboard.

ilovetswift13Jul 30, 20153 votes

they take the assassins and neuter them. Akali was my favorite champ turned her into shit with that q auto bullshit. same with kha, rengar, and zed. All got destroyed by nerfs.

CreationFlawJul 30, 201519 votes

{quoted}

they take the assassins and neuter them. Akali was my favorite champ turned her into shit with that q auto bullshit. same with kha, rengar, and zed. All got destroyed by nerfs.

O.O? Kha/Rengar/Zed are all playable. That's like saying Talon got gutted because now he doesn't have his silence.

ilovetswift13Jul 31, 20152 votes

dude playable and what they were are completely different. Kass is playable.

IcyPepperJul 31, 20159 votes

Zed is very playable, and Kha/Rengo aren't bad in the right hands.

Zed, imo, is probably more playable than Kassadin.

junglerboy16Jul 31, 20153 votes

a lot more playable than Kassadin.

TheRainInSpainJul 31, 20153 votes

Teemo is more playable than Kassadin, which says something.

TheorcheroJul 31, 20159 votes

{quoted}

O.O? Kha/Rengar/Zed are all playable. That's like saying Talon got gutted because now he doesn't have his silence.

Rengar is still complete bullshit.

yukonlJul 31, 20153 votes

I find it funny how old Kassadin destroys Riven so badly.

YumaS2AstralJul 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I find it funny how old Kassadin destroys Riven so badly.

I doubt that, Riven used to be way stronger before, her Q did more damage, her shield could last for more time, and she had way better base health regeneration.

ChaosThiefJul 31, 20154 votes

I assume old kassadin means pre-rework kassadin, when he had a silence.

So he could 100/0 riven in 1-2 seconds before the silence wears off.

KING OF MASKSJul 31, 20153 votes

This thread actually reminded me of Kassadin's existence. I seriously can't remember the last time I saw one in a match.

TheRainInSpainJul 31, 20154 votes

Saw one in the last hundred games. He was utterly crushed. Played him once in the last hundred games (separate game). I was crushed, by a Teemo. Kassadin's kit feels like Rito wanted him to face off against ranged AP based mages without significant auto attack/spell spam presence. The issue I'm having is that for a melee champion, his base speed is slow, he has long cooldowns/E charge up, and his ultimate is very weak. He is also very easily countered by AD based mages/assassins (Yorick is an AD mage), but has no ability to contend with top lane bruisers/tanks, nor any potential to be a jungler. He's a gimped champion, plain and simple. Specialized and weak as hell in the one role you're supposed to dominate in (let alone other roles) is a very bad game design.

O Fallen ScholarJul 31, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Scyther KR,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vZ4P9R0E,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-30T21:59:33.380+0000)

His mobility which already had its own huge drawbacks. Then he gets nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed and then reworked to finally become unplayable. He's had his fucking movespeed nerfed at times.

But can dash every auto attack and gets 4 resourceless, low CD dashes, an AD scaling shield, and AoE knockup and stun, an AD and attack range steroid. Huge AD scalings. And an AoE execute.

But Kassadin gets to have mediocre mobility, which costs tons of mana, shit damage and pretty bad defenses. Seems fair.

That's pretty bad comparison. You can't compare champions who are different by kit wise.

Kassadin's ult is instant cast "flash" and he dealt pretty darn good damage too. That's why it's difficult to balance Kassadin. Riot currently has no plans to change or rework his ass, that's why they nerfed him to bad spot until they think it's time to rework him (yes he needs that badly imo, because changes they've made are not fixing his core issues like his ult and good damage output). He is suffering from old Eve syndrome (stun got changed to slow).

Champion SkinJul 31, 20157 votes

That actually isn't entirely true Kassadin R isn't completely instant as it has a brief cast time

And honestly with Kassadin having so much mobility I really do think he should be pushed more towards a DPS style which would force him to use his mobility not just to reach people and blow them up but also to stick to people to DPS them down (giving his opponents more time to react to kassadin and deal with him) Though that would also mean that he would likely need some new tools to manage being focused as that would require him to jump into the face of people and stay there (and when he jumps into the face of people he doesn't really have any way of avoiding damage since his jump is on cooldown and he doesn't have many other ways of avoiding or absorbing damage)

Dr PoroJul 31, 20152 votes

Kassadin should get his Mres/lvl back. Maybe a small buff to his Q, like 10 damage on all lvls.

LuggJul 31, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Scyther KR,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vZ4P9R0E,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-30T21:59:33.380+0000)

His mobility which already had its own huge drawbacks.

Since when is mobility EVER a drawback?

Spicy RiceJul 31, 201540 votes

When your mobility spell costs 1.2k mana, i think its considered a drawback

Troll for TrumpJul 31, 20152 votes

at least he has mobility, shit ton of champs have no mobility whatsoever.

MannysmokerJul 31, 20152 votes

yea but at the cost of 1200 mana, it doesn't seems reasonable..

LuggJul 31, 20154 votes

It only costs that much if you use it 5 times in a row and that is the TOTAL mana cost for all 5 walks. Plus you are completely ignoring the fact that each spell does more and more damage and the HUGE mana regen he gets from using his W. At max rank it restores 40% of this missing mana.

It's a very powerful ability that HAS to have the increasing mana costs or else Kass would be completely OP from just hopping around a fight.