Riot, nerf the items or the champion, don't completely destroy both

Visigoth·Oct 23, 2015·183 votes·6,591 views

Seriously, it's fucked up. both were strong with Cinderhulk (although the former was building it top lane), both received several nerfs and then Cinderhulk later got huge nerfs. And then it's such a knee jerk because in a few patches they go from absolute god tier 70% winrate to garbage.

Same thing happened with at the beginning of Season 5. Challenge smite + devourer made him OP, then Warwick got absolutely destroyed, and then you nerfed devourer for good measure. And now Warwick, even with Sated Bullshit, is still bad.

For the love of god Riot, let the champion get played before item nerfs, or let them get played before actual champion nerfs, don't just rape both in the same patch, you don't want another , do you? You know, the guy who literally used to get nerfs every patch. And then got reworked to make him even worse. Are you trying to make Kassadin 2.0?

83 Comments

GigahappytownOct 23, 201528 votes

Sej is even worse than before.

InfernaliceOct 24, 20152 votes

idd, I started playing her after the changes to her Q and W in the preseason,and she was fairly good with the item 3713 item 3067 item. Now she's really weak.

VaralessiaOct 23, 201522 votes

"lets take five ad off of Kayle because shes too strong with devourer in the jungle"

"lets gut item 3710 for all ranged champs"

Zair UmbrasOct 23, 20157 votes

To be honest, we're all happy in a world with less 3s invulnerability where the person can still do things like move and attack.

SithesisLordOct 24, 20156 votes

3s invulnerability that can be rendered useless through CC.

But an insta-penta machine with instant cast and heal for good measure is completely fine, right? Ekko

LeeDarkOct 24, 201512 votes

You actually just said one was balanced because you could CC, and then list someone else whose ult is useless if you CC them.

ReazaleOct 24, 20151 votes

But ekko ults can dodge ccs , it makes him untargetable! xD

joking , this coment aint serious (even tho its possible)

LeeDarkOct 25, 20151 votes

The problem is there are a ton of people who would have left that comment seriously.

Zair UmbrasOct 24, 20153 votes

I'd rather face Ekko than face Kayle to be honest. Kayle has a lot of sustained damage, shreds MR and Armor, and can save anyone's life. Sure, in a 1v5, Kayle can be CC'd, but in the middle of a team fight against a team that's trying to kill an ally or even focus you by blowing so really long CD's? You pop ult and you just stopped two or three all at once. Zed ult'ing your carry? Ult. LB about to jump your carry? Ult. Ekko trying to go in for that kill? Ult. Got a J4, Vi, and Yasuo all diving in for your fed as hell Vayne? Uuuuuuult.

SithesisLordOct 24, 20154 votes

Exactly. That´s what makes Kayle so incredibly easy to beat. She wastes ult on herself, it´s 3s of protection her now dead carry didn´t get. If she uses ult on her carry, well, that was a no cost ult flying out the window because Kayle's now dead which means her team can forget about that 15% armor and MR shred.

Comparing her kit to say, Yasuo's, Lee Sin's or even Ekko's kit, hers is a lot healthier and easier to run circles around.

I may not play in NA anymore cuz the server transfer banged up my ping, but in the BR server, Irelia and Kayle are the only champs i have level 5 mastery with. I don´t consider myself good with them or even their main, but i´m honestly surprised to see how much qq those two get. For no reason at all.

I know the Irelia meme. Kayle just got her own with the 5 AD thing. Which, killed her jungling waaaaay before Devourer got nerfed on ranged. And crippled her laning.

Kayle's sustained damage only becomes really noticeable after she finishes Nashor's. Before, it´s like a no AP Karthus Q. Barely even tickles.

KrinuOct 24, 20151 votes

She's got a pretty painful early game (like, level 1-3), falls off hard midgame, and then starts inflicting real pain after three items or so. Once she has Nashor's and Wit's End you need to start being careful, because the MR shred on top of her passive starts to make for painful fighting.

ChaosThiefOct 25, 20151 votes

If he gets a penta with that ult, you deserved it. There is nothing else to say here.

SithesisLordOct 26, 20151 votes

If Kayle chunks down your whole team while on ult, you deserved it too.

Rustling BushOct 23, 201520 votes

"balance is weakness" - Zed

BiBoX2Oct 24, 20155 votes

"Balance is a lie - we are the true ninjas." ― Zed

PikmintsOct 23, 20159 votes

Well we all knew that the tank meta wouldn't last forever. I remember multiple threads thanking Riot for making it and how pretty much everyone except adc mains loved it. It was fun, but slicing off the top percentage is standard from patch to patch so the one item that made it so, cinderhulk, along with a couple champions got nerfed to the point where we reached our point of constant instability once more.

LeeDarkOct 24, 20152 votes

That's a very selective memory.

KeevalroyOct 24, 20153 votes

I'm an ADC main and I loved Cinderhulk.

JustMyBassCannonOct 23, 20156 votes

Except those nerfs weren't out of line.

The nerfs to the items were because the items themselves were too powerful. Literally anyone that wanted health was taking Smite and picking up a Cinderhulk for the massive extra chunk of HP. Instead of being a niche thing that occasionally saw lane play, it was a minimum 2 Cinderhulks per team.

Sion and Sejuani also needed nerfs because, even after bringing Cinderhulk to a manageable level, they would still be ridiculously strong.

As for Warwick and Skirmisher's, that was imbalanced from the start. Instant on-hit true damage can't be balanced as long as on-hit stackers exist. Your guess is as good as mine, so far as why Warwick himself was nerfed, but I would guess that has to do with items as well.

PapaGreg21Oct 23, 201523 votes

{quoted}

Except those nerfs weren't out of line.

The nerfs to the items were because the items themselves were too powerful. Literally anyone that wanted health was taking Smite and picking up a Cinderhulk for the massive extra chunk of HP. Instead of being a niche thing that occasionally saw lane play, it was a minimum 2 Cinderhulks per team.

Sion and Sejuani also needed nerfs because, even after bringing Cinderhulk to a manageable level, they would still be ridiculously strong.

As for Warwick and Skirmisher's, that was imbalanced from the start. Instant on-hit true damage can't be balanced as long as on-hit stackers exist. Your guess is as good as mine, so far as why Warwick himself was nerfed, but I would guess that has to do with items as well.

Sejuani is too weak at this point. You could make the case for every single jungler currently being stronger than Sejuani. 50% of her main damage spell nerfed over 2 patches was one of the most drastic things I have seen in this game.

JustMyBassCannonOct 23, 20153 votes

Part of that is the meta, and part of that is other options being too strong rather than Sejuani being too weak. Devourer is still insanely powerful, and offensive junglers are stronger at the moment.

LankPantsOct 24, 20152 votes

Devourer is still insanely powerful

Devourer's overrated. All three other enchants are stronger than it, Sej is just a weaker Cinderhulk user than guys like Grag, Rek'sai, Amumu and Shyvana.

JustMyBassCannonOct 24, 20151 votes

It's not universally powerful, but for those that use it best, it's insane.

LankPantsOct 24, 20151 votes

Personally I'm not a fan of giving up my early game.

I'd prefer Warrior or Cinder on all of its users since the power gap isn't substantial and not having an early game is a terrible idea.

JustMyBassCannonOct 24, 20151 votes

It's more preferential in that regard, really, and I can't just find fault in another player's rational decision based on their opinion.

ChortleOct 23, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Sejuani is too weak at this point. You could make the case for every single jungler currently being stronger than Sejuani. 50% of her main damage spell nerfed over 2 patches was one of the most drastic things I have seen in this game.

this is a flat out false statement

PapaGreg21Oct 23, 201514 votes

{quoted}

this is a flat out false statement

What part of it is false? Please prove me wrong.

ChortleOct 23, 20153 votes

{quoted}

What part of it is false? Please prove me wrong.

"You could make the case for every single jungler currently being stronger than Sejuani."

This.

Such a stupid statement

The baddies in this community circlejerk champs for not needed buffs so hard that they become OP and are then gutted.

It's okay for champs not to be pick/ban status and Sej does many things well despite this board section only focusing on her lowered damage (that was ridiculous btw).

evil magicOct 24, 20159 votes

Patch 5.6 notes:

Sejuani W damage down. R slows less when you fail to land the stun.

W - Flail of the Northern Winds INITIAL DAMAGE 4/6/8/10/12% ⇒ 4/5.5/7/8.5/10% of target's maximum health R - Glacial Prison SLOW 90% ⇒ 30%

Patch 5.10 notes:

Sejuani W's on-hit bonus damage now deals less of the target's max health.

W - Flail of the Northern Winds BONUS MAGIC DAMAGE 4/5.5/7/8.5/10% of target's maximum health ⇒ 4/4.5/5/5.5/6% of target's maximum health

LankPantsOct 24, 20158 votes

I feel like they should take half the damage off of Lee's Q2 so idiots who think that losing 50% of part of an abilities damage isn't a gutting can see how bad it actually is.

ChortleOct 24, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=evil magic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A7i4Bmy3,comment-id=000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-24T00:16:03.395+0000)

Patch 5.6 notes:

Sejuani W damage down. R slows less when you fail to land the stun.

W - Flail of the Northern Winds INITIAL DAMAGE 4/6/8/10/12% ⇒ 4/5.5/7/8.5/10% of target's maximum health R - Glacial Prison SLOW 90% ⇒ 30%

Patch 5.10 notes:

Sejuani W's on-hit bonus damage now deals less of the target's max health.

W - Flail of the Northern Winds BONUS MAGIC DAMAGE 4/5.5/7/8.5/10% of target's maximum health ⇒ 4/4.5/5/5.5/6% of target's maximum health

she got nerfed cuz she was pick/ban status

none of that was surprising

You guys really want to make her seem like she's trash when she does so many awesome completely strong things you always fail to mention.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Oct 24, 20157 votes

{quoted}

she got nerfed cuz she was pick/ban status

none of that was surprising

You guys really want to make her seem like she's trash when she does so many awesome completely strong things you always fail to mention.

Yet you never mentioned one.

ChortleOct 24, 20152 votes

If you can't blatantly see how strong her early ganks, sticking power, and team presence are, there's no reason for you to be part of this discussion.

LankPantsOct 24, 20158 votes

If you can't blatantly see how strong her early ganks

Early ganks were never Sej's strength.

ChortleOct 24, 20151 votes

Yikes. Okay abandoning all hope for you guys

Red RyuOct 24, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Yikes. Okay abandoning all hope for you guys

I'll be honest.

I hate the reddit system of upvote downvote because it promote a hive mind over some more legitimate discussion. I do think it is better for feedback though.

For feedback, people think some of these are weak, you did say she was fine, but not into much detail outside of her being pick or bad, though that part was correct on your part.

Honestly I get downvoted whenever I talk about Sona around here, but at least I try to explain it a little bit more. Try that out, if people do not listen, oh well.

Champion SkinOct 24, 20152 votes

Parts of the problem with Sejuani is that she competes so much with Amumu Either Amumu or Sejuani is almost always better then the other

As they pretty much fill the same role of a Tank with initiation and damage And the one with the most damage of the two is often the strongest of the two

alfavhunterOct 23, 201513 votes

{quoted}

Except those nerfs weren't out of line.

The nerfs to the items were because the items themselves were too powerful. Literally anyone that wanted health was taking Smite and picking up a Cinderhulk for the massive extra chunk of HP. Instead of being a niche thing that occasionally saw lane play, it was a minimum 2 Cinderhulks per team.

Sion and Sejuani also needed nerfs because, even after bringing Cinderhulk to a manageable level, they would still be ridiculously strong.

As for Warwick and Skirmisher's, that was imbalanced from the start. Instant on-hit true damage can't be balanced as long as on-hit stackers exist. Your guess is as good as mine, so far as why Warwick himself was nerfed, but I would guess that has to do with items as well.

Sion E NERF was reasonable, he didn't need or deserve the other nerfs with cinderhulk also bring nerfed. It was overkill

E had a valid reason, he was just poking people out of lane and out scaling

They didn't need to NERF the other parts of sion and have the cinderhulk NERF as well, one or the other, but both resulted in overkill

Janna Me FiddleOct 23, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Sion E NERF was reasonable, he didn't need or deserve the other nerfs with cinderhulk also bring nerfed. It was overkill

E had a valid reason, he was just poking people out of lane and out scaling

They didn't need to NERF the other parts of sion and have the cinderhulk NERF as well, one or the other, but both resulted in overkill

I'm all for micro adjustments rather than a full reversion, tuning them back up in increments until they are in a place Riot and the players are both happy with is better than just letting them rot in the wilderness.

Sion is supposed to be a higher risk Juggernaut than Darius or Garen for a reason, yet his risk as it stands far outweighs the reward.

There's a good reason Garen is a solo queue god and Darius is everywhere even in competitive, they are both extremely safe and reliable picks where the risks are lower than the rewards. Sion is just far too risky a pick because R is too easily punished.

Mael broOct 24, 20154 votes

How about deleting item 3153 ?

NoraverOct 23, 20153 votes

The sad thing is, OP, Riot won't buff Sej and Sion before the pre-season. Because the pre-season has so many changes, they'll wait until then (Or even AFTER it) to do it.

I played Sej top after her new rework, and it was fun and viable. Now, I can't, due to her being completely destroyed with no chance of Riot buffing her back to her rework state. They do this with every item and champion. Like half of the balance team wants to nerf the item, the other half wants to nerf the champion, so they nerf both.

BallisticMouseOct 24, 20153 votes

Kayle and Dev also caused a Kayle nerf. Never reverted.

BiBoX2Oct 24, 20151 votes

to be exact, one Kayle nerf and two Dev nerfs ...

IpressbuttonOct 24, 20152 votes

item 3070 Kayle WHERES MY 5 AD RITO???

Jeddy017Oct 23, 20152 votes

At least they learned not to nerf both.They could have easily nerfed the crap out of AP Ezreal along with the whole item 3708 mid fiasco.But instead they just nerfed Runeglaive & AP Ez made it out untouched.

But for Sejuani Sion & Warwick (though WW really just needs a complete rework),these champs should at least get something.Either revert one of the nerfs they got or buff another aspect of them.It doesn't have to be anything major,just give them something for the time being. Zed & Leblanc got nerfed (Zed got a time period before he could return to his Ult shadow & LB's W got a speed decrease),fall out of favor in the meta for a few months,then received semi-reverts on the nerfs (it's not back to where it was pre-nerfs,but it's better than post-nerfs).Just do the same with Sion & Sej.They don't to completely revert the nerfs.

Zair UmbrasOct 23, 20155 votes

AP Ez almost didn't make it out. They were about to nerf his kit before they pulled it off the PBE.

Jeddy017Oct 23, 20152 votes

Point is he made it out untouched.

Zair UmbrasOct 23, 20153 votes

He almost didn't, but AP Ez has been favored by Riot for so long that when they were nerfing Ez back in S2 when he was 100% pick or ban as an ADC, they made sure that AP Ez wouldn't suffer. It's kinda scary how much he's favored. Had he been any other champion, he probably would've been nerfed. Like Nid got her spear nerfed recently and Eve had mana added to her W plus the Q damage nerf. Diana and Ez were the only ones who escape unscathed.

shteeebOct 25, 20152 votes

DFG removal compensation for Syndra :

-Make Q hit like a wet noodle all laning phase (50 FUCKING BASE DAMAGE AT RANK ONE WHAT THE FUCK) -Make orb hitbox width for stun the width of a nidalee spear

Thanks Riot! I haven't touched my S3 & S4 most played champion because of how shit her early game is now.

Same for Lissandra . "Oh yeah we gutted her damage in reaction to her getting picked and now she does no damage but here's a random-ass heal on her ult for compensation!

TeCoolMageOct 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Same for . "Oh yeah we gutted her damage in reaction to her getting picked and now she does no damage but here's a random-ass heal on her ult for compensation!

To be honest, that Lissandra buff was well worth it because of how suicidal she was. What kind of Mage does a Lee sin dash into the enemy team, amumu ults, Annie incinerates, zhonyas, and takes no damage while all her abilities are on cooldown. She's not a tank, she's not an assassin, why is her most damaging combo EWQR?!