Aggressive supports, Good or Bad?

SP Dodgecity·Mar 14, 2016·4 votes·1,875 views

So lately I've been winning a lot, I main ADC, but something I noticed, my last couple of games, my supports have built carry.... does that make sense? Like I had a supp tahm and he built like a top laner, with tons of damage out put. I had 3 kills and 15 assists and he had about 9 kills. Even when kills were 100% secured, he'd jump in and take it.

Usually I could care less, but at a point, it kills my champs late game to lose some kills. I dont mind 1 or 2 but as soon as youre 5-1-1 and im 1-1-5 then we know someone is being a little too aggressive.

Don't get me wrong I LOVE supports and I enjoy laning with someone, but lately the aggressive supports I like have kinda been taking kills on purpose... a lot.. haha

69 Comments

LaughingMan11Mar 14, 20163 votes

Though it is indeed less gold, and is incredibly annoying, on the bright side assists give gold too? As long as you're getting good CS at least, it shouldnt be that much of an issue, but overall there is a huge difference between aggressive supporting, and supports who just want to carry. The latter being what you're experiencing.

SP DodgecityMar 16, 20161 votes

Assists do give gold but only like 70 gold I believe... maybe 100 G.

The real problem is this, if you have 3 assists and 80 CS, and the other ADC has 1 kill and 80 CS, even though you've "Almost" killed them 3 times, they're still on the same level as you, when they should really be 900 gold behind, which makes it easier for you to CS and to get further kills.

Having 1 or 2 kills go isn't that bad, but having 5 kills taken by the support on purpose is unhealthy for the ADC early-mid game.

LaughingMan11Mar 17, 20161 votes

Assists give half the gold of what ever the kill was worth, So if they get an assist on someone worth 300 gold, they get 150, if its a 500 gold killing spree, you'd get 250. And depending on your support, your support being super fed can be really good for the team as a whole. Which, although it doesn't make your game super awesome, a win is still a win, even if you dont carry it.

IcyPepperMar 18, 20161 votes

Don't forget the assist pool is split among everyone who earned the assist :<

Stained SpearMar 14, 20162 votes

Save a finishing blow ability for the execution otherwise maybe duo-q with a non stat hungry soloqueue support

SP DodgecityMar 14, 20161 votes

True haha, most of them though they were trapped and I literally just had to basic attack once and then WHAM, lux ult, or tahm tongue attack, or morgana pool haha XD

But I love supports its just hard when they get too excited or are not really trying to support. (especially volibear supp, they get like a 50% tax on your kills XD)

Eclipse LeonaMar 16, 20161 votes

Leona supp, Massive CC / stun sometimes ks (killsteal) because of my W mostly at the end of my combo. other then that complete KS (Kill Secured) for adc.

Deep Terror NamiMar 14, 20162 votes

Whatever works. If the support is carrying hard, that's great. If he's just doing 5% of the damage and getting the kills, that's bad.

Dominick DestineMar 14, 20161 votes

Did you get de-blued? what sorcery is this?

Deep Terror NamiMar 14, 20161 votes

Ya they let me go.

ShadowParkerMar 14, 20161 votes

Wait what? Why?

Deep Terror NamiMar 14, 20163 votes

jk, the Arbiter title is only for the PB&M and Misc. boards.

JayHog1992Mar 14, 20161 votes

Once had an enemy Brand going full damages. Didn't even buy a sightstone. Poor Tristana on his team was constantly getting caught due to lack of vision, nearly raged if I haven't calmed her down.

LaughingMan11Mar 17, 20161 votes

To be fair, its just as much tristana's fault for not having vision as it is brands. Its the whole teams job to ward, not just the supports.

JayHog1992Mar 17, 20161 votes

But supports are meant to have the most vision control since they buy sightstone to keep it up. Tristana only has two wards and they take too long to recharge.

Maybe she didn't have wards? Or used one recently? Brand can just pop wards at no penalties besides limit, so he should had warded more than anyone on the team.

Brand's at fault here, not Tristana. When I play support, first item I buy is always sightstone (Zilean is an exception since I need that tear ASAP before sightstone.)

enraged in flameMar 14, 20161 votes

I main support and I try my best to not get kills in laining phaze and apologize when I take kills and usally I dont get flamed. But if it is a team fight I dont go for kills but I will kill secure, and sometimes I get flamed for that... but I feel those are fair game. But I have played agressive and left last hit for adc and the kill excapes.... and I kick myself for that. However I do what I can to feed my adc.

Sona PingMar 14, 20161 votes

" Aggressive supports, Good or Bad? " Playing aggressive as supports, whether it is good or bad, as with a lot of things in League, that depends on the context.

"[Support building like a laner; Good or Bad?]" Same as above. Sometimes have a build like a laner is the correct call, other times it's not.

" it kills my champs late game to lose some kills." I rather doubt that. If you are playing an ADC, I can't think of any champion normally taken ADC who doesn't have a late game just in their nature and the ADC build pattern.

What it sounds like is happening is that you are getting players, who happen to be playing support, who are playing aggressive because they are looking to take charge of the game and put into their and their team's favor. There is not really anything wrong with this; they are not in the wrong for looking to make sure advantages are gained. Especially in low elo ranked, they are certainly not in the wrong for not playing passively, sitting in a bush and hoping someone on their team has themselves together enough to get a win. I've read what support mains in low, low Elo who say that at times it's like they all laning phase is, hoping that they didn't get the more incompetent of the two ADCs. I can't blame a player for not wanting to be subject to a coin flip, and instead play aggressive and try to carry themselves.

Overall, isn't better that you are getting matched with people with who want to win and want to carry, rather than the people who do nothing and then blame their teams?

SP DodgecityMar 15, 20161 votes

No haha XD I love aggressive supports, im talking about repeated "Accidents"

Where the enemy is at 10 hp, and then out of no where tahm will pick him up and run off for the kill, then he chats "let me carry you" hahah So thats what im talking about. Supports are awesome and I love them aggressive, its better for me because I play aggressive. But I'd rather just farm a lane well and get a kill or two, then constantly engage, get 70ish gold for an assist and miss out on 100+ gold of CS. I shouldn't end a laning phase at 0-0-8, that hurts the team in general because a fed caitlyn does more damage faster than a fed tahm.

Thank you for your comment though :D

BastionKrossMar 15, 20161 votes

We're entering a new era of supporting in lower elos. Since dynamic queue is so eager to assign people to support even if they have it secondary or fill, you're going to get a lot of supports that are basically bot lane carries with a sightstone and little CS. Which is fine. In lower elos getting the marksman to his late game quicker isn't as important as it is in higher elos. It's entirely possible to carry the game as AP Darius with good enough game mechanics in that elo range, so letting a support get kills instead of the marksman isn't a big deal. As long as someone on your team is getting fed at lower elos, no matter who it is, that's a big advantage. A huge advantage. Even if it's Janna.

If you're frustrated about a gimped gold income and having someone take kills that you feel you should get, then you're feeling now what supports felt for a long time. It's not a good feeling, even if you expect it to happen by choosing support. If your support is getting fed and carrying you, be happy for him. He's living the dream that marksman get to live on a vastly more frequent basis.

And be happy for yourself, because you get a win.

SP DodgecityMar 15, 20161 votes

So I totally agree with you, and I understand what you're saying, I am grateful for the win and what not. But its the difference of a lux support ulting and accidentally getting a kill which I could care less about, its healthy for our lane and I don't mind, or a tahm who purposely says, "let me carry you", builds full damage tahm top, and picks up champions on the last hit for the kill.

Thats what I'm talking about. Its healthy for a support to get CS and kills to keep up and be more effective late game. But its unhealthy for the team when a supports takes kills from his ADC purposely, and the other laners late game.

Supporting is hard, and I get it, its not the funnest to sit there and try and baby sit an ADC that at lower elo's can be very unpredictable, and then you have to do well enough to get your adc a kill without taking the kill which can be difficult as well.

I love the duo of supp and ADC when done right, but in those circumstances I think its a little too much.

BastionKrossMar 15, 20161 votes

You're missing the point a bit, and that's my fault for being unclear.

What I was trying to say was that, at lower elos, it doesn't matter who gets the kill. As long as the enemy dies, and someone on your team gets the gold, it's all good. Just because someone is a marksman, that does not mean they should get the kills at low elo.

A support main can climb more easily if they get kills and carry the team like your Tahm did. At higher elos, a support can trust his team to make good decisions, so they can be confident that letting the marksman have the kills is going to work in their benefit, even if it's another player getting fed.

Trusting other people at lower elos to carry you is like trusting Phreak not to make a bad pun. You're better off trying to carry yourself a lot of the time. That's why supports are starting to take the kills that marksmen feel entitled to: the supports don't trust the marksman to carry them. This is especially true this season, where improper positioning from a marksman will be swiftly punished by the assassins running rampant, and tanks not being particularly powerful means less peel and frontline durability for marksmen to hide behind.

Now marksmen have to earn the kills at lower elos by playing well, not just having kills handed to them because they're the marksmen. If the support is a better player, they get fed and carry instead. It's a liberating time for supports.

SP DodgecityMar 16, 20161 votes

I see what you're saying, and in a way I agree. If I was a supp main then I would defiantly pick champs that I could possibly carry with, especially since a lot of low elo team comps consist of 3-4 AD champs... which is annoying haha... I think a supp should start building to carry when they can see their ADC is crap. But again, a fed Kogmaw, varus, caitlyn, Missfortune, vayne, is more important than a fed tahm. Its just the truth. Support mains should do their best to carry themselves out of bronze, or they should just not support until out of bronze if they want to carry the matches themselves. But ADC's and supports have a unique relationship.

ADC's are little lion cubs early game, and supports are the lioness. They keep that cub safe til it grows up to be a great big Lion. A great big Lion will always do more damage than the lioness, but the lioness still very important. So just like a Pride, the Lion eats first, then the lioness. A Lioness is still a bad ass and can do a ton to help and they support their prides, but when the big guns are needed, the Lion needs to be fed to do the most possible.... even in the low "savanna"

#randomLionComparision

3TWarriorMar 15, 20161 votes

I think aggressive RANGED supports are good for most tiers because they can control the actions of their opponents but yeah, it's hard to not get the kill sometimes

SP DodgecityMar 15, 20161 votes

Oh most defiantly, I honestly love blitz, thresh, leona, braum, or tahm, or naut, I like tanky supports with heavy CC :D Thresh and blitz more though just because when they land a grab, I can plant traps all around them for an even better combo.

3TWarriorMar 17, 20161 votes

I would argue that blitz is a bit less healthy though because of his ability to delete any champion he grabs but champs such as thresh or naut at least leave a window of opportunity for escape

I actually meant champions such as soraka, nami, sona, veigar or other mage or mage-like champions on the basis of equal trades

SP DodgecityMar 17, 20161 votes

Of course blitz is less healthy... every grab he lands on you raises your blood pressure by 10 points....

Baby GhoulMar 15, 20161 votes

In the grand scheme of things, yes they are bad for a variety of reasons.

Support income and scaling is bad, so in reality supports can never carry. The carry needs to be the one with the highest level and the most income. What happens in bot lane so often is the support will have all the kills, but the ADC will have all the farm. That is not good against an ADC that has all the kills, and all the farm. They will delete you both if they haven't already.

Another thing to realize is a support main will recognize an aggressive support. There's weakness to this playstyle. You're much more likely to make mistakes by being baited and get yourself killed early game. We all know how out of control ADC snowballs are. Or worse, you could make an aggressive play, bite off more than you can chew, and your ADC can get killed, crippling them for the rest of the game. That's what happens most of the time.

However bot lane is in such a strange place at the moment. Some junglers do not gank bot this season. I don't know why, but counter pressure to bot lane is not as big as it used to be. In my opinion they couldn't have picked a worse time to keep the jungle meta majority top lane ganking champions, but that's how it is. If you get a snowball rolling, the chances of you being shut down before 20 minutes is incredibly slim. This gives an incentive for the aggressive support in lower ELO games.

If they are able to land a combo and ignite on you early game, you're going to be zoned for the rest of the laning phase, and your jungler will likely keep ganking top. Then that same support does not get Sightstone and builds AP in the hopes that they can finish the game quickly by overwhelming the team with damage, and sometimes they're able to do that.

It is bad, but you can see why it works on occasion. As a support you should always go off of how your ADC is playing, and the matchup you're against. If you can carve out more room in the lane, then absolutely do that, but diving at level 2 with an ignite is more of a 60/40 type deal, success being the 40.

SP DodgecityMar 16, 20161 votes

To be honest this is just about right haha, I love the points you made, and I agree. Crippling the ADC on purpose is never going to help the match, because ADC's can carry if played right. A fed tahm kench isn't going to carry late game, he'll be annoying, and will be a good front line, but in the end its up to the ADC, to carry.

Meep ManMar 15, 20161 votes

You should only really build that way if you are duo and ahead.

SP DodgecityMar 17, 20161 votes

True haha, I wish league had in game voice chat for just bot laners. It would be so nice to verbally communicate with your partner. Of course they're ragers so you'll need mute functions haha.

Eclipse LeonaMar 16, 20161 votes

I play passive/aggressive. scout the situation, if I see many oppertunities I go all-in Aggressive and poke a lot, if the enemy is good I play somewhat passive but try to block them from "zone-ing" us.

SP DodgecityMar 17, 20161 votes

Thats the way i prefer my partner to go. More of an Opportunity lane, I'll always be passively poking the other team because I have a lot of range as Caitlyn, and I love when right after a really good poke, or snare, the supp jumps in right that moment. Usually those result in kills too.

69469238DEL1Mar 17, 20161 votes

I love aggressive supports, I'm still getting assist gold and creep gold, bot lane comes out like a powerhouse after laning phase I reckon.

SP DodgecityMar 17, 20161 votes

I agree for sure but the only thing that gets me is that if the enemy ADC has 1 kills and 50 cs, and you have 2 assists and 50 cs. You've caught him twice, but your both still on the same level and gold ground, even though you should actually be ahead. This can cause your lane to not be won as easily or it gives them a chance to come back

So I agree with you partially. I don't mind losing 1 or 2 kills but losing 5 kills in the early game is a little too much haha

dark100dark100Mar 17, 20161 votes

I play supp, and normally a support should not get kills, because a strong adc later is critical to win a game. However, there are pretty bad adcs, who does not capable of doing their job (weak damage on lv1, missing all skillshots, all enemy skillshots hit them, bad target prioritize, etc.). In that case it is clear that the adc will not carry, and supp need to do something. A defensive support (e.g. Braum) usually cannot do anything, but offensive supports like Malphite, Tahm and Lux can take over the adc role. If you are a good adc just tell them to stop, and if they continue report them. Otherwise be happy if the game is not lost.

SP DodgecityMar 17, 20161 votes

I agree, if your adc is trash, then build to carry haha. The most an ADC can do once they fall really far behind, is to try and snag a kill if they can but really all you can do is farm to catch up. Which makes pretty much a 4v5 until they've farmed for a bit.

Old Man TeetoMar 17, 20161 votes

So long as they build sightstone and perform basic functions of the support role...

They aren't TRULY doing anything egregious. While there is more accepted forms of building supports that tend to work better, particularly as you improve and getting fed happens less often, nothing states the actual role of support besides "go bot" for early laning and play to win.

SP DodgecityMar 17, 20161 votes

Thats true... hmmmm do you think they should make a guide/video for both ADC's and Supports on how to best do their roles together as a duo?

Cause a lot of the time you just kinda have to figure it out on your own and learn your own play style, but a little wisdom from like an LCS player or an experienced ADC and support wouldn't hurt.

What do you think?

Old Man TeetoMar 17, 20161 votes

They've done spotlights on the duo-lane synergy many times.

Doublelift + Aphromoo, the Rush Hour, and what each expect from the other and how they work together.

As for a guide? It's both too short and too long to be worth writing.

Short version is just.

Play to your partner's strengths, cover their weaknesses.

For solo-que though, you never know who you're partnering with, one of the reasons why the lane gets so much flack is because you rely on your ally and if you don't click or agree on plays -- one flashes out, the other hard engages at the same time -- you get the rage of "My ADC never follows my engages" and "My support just suicides into them" when it was just neither of them knowing how the other wants to handle the situation.

99% of bot lane complaints are because people are bad at working with other people. Hell probably 99% of complaints ever anywhere fit that.

SP DodgecityMar 17, 20161 votes

Ill have to look em up but I agree, most of the time when im soloing I try to learn my supps patterns. Sometimes they're super random and at other times we click and we're able to dominate the lane :D

Unstoppable MonkMar 17, 20161 votes

It also doesn't help that uh--

Noob ADC mains go into the lane expecting that them knowing their champion is good enough and all they need to win is to have the support magically do whatever they expect to happen and if they lose its a crappy support.

Noob support mains go into lane expecting the ADC to play and build exactly like the same other ADC that they saw before and if they don't they're "trash". Exception is Blue Ezreals, all Blue Ezreals are real trash. =<

Athenes LuluMar 17, 20161 votes

Aggressive supports aren't always high-damage carries. Things like Leona and Lulu are not high-damage, but aggressive. So I'm just gonna assume you're talking about "carry supports" that actually dishes out significant damage and get kills kind of thing.

I'm not a big fan of it because it almost always get ADCs behind on the long run. And remember that one assist is ~1/3 of a kill. So the more kills a support takes out of all kills botlane has taken, the more possibly behind the ADC could be, unless it's something like 10-0 where the enemy botlane is just absolutely hopeless. If not, then it's kinda obvious. Assuming at equal farm team A support has 5 kills and ADC has 0, while team B support has 0 kills and ADC has 2. On the long run, team B would be more likely to win because their ADC has more gold. More damage = more likely to win, that's the general math we are going to use here. And that's how I often win games as well, enemy ADC was useless because his support took way too many kills early on, even if that support was 4/0/0 and his ADC 0/0/4.

At most 2 kills is all a support will really need: enough for a sightstone AND level 2 gold item rush. Because of course, they're not perfect. Even players who just suck at taking kills, like me, take them by accident, and that's okay. However, anything more than that would put ADCs "behind on schedule".

And since ADCs matter more damage-wise late game more than their supports... you get the point. Even if these supports are actual midlaners. The need for sustained ranged damage is just too powerful.

SP DodgecityMar 18, 20161 votes

I agree, in lower elo matches I think its more flexible to let a few more kills go to the supp, and I don't mind losing 1 or 2. But in my matches I would lose like 5 early game kills. That really crippled me late game because my supp continued to try and carry and I had to spend extra time farming in order to get to the point to do damage late game.

WingsofGulgazorMar 18, 20161 votes

to be honest carry supports are really good because they can snowball the lane super hard and take towers and objectives early. But the only issue is that it doesn't work in higher levels of play because 1 the other supports at higher levels aren't getting kills but they are roaming around the map getting kills, warding, giving pressure for his team while his adc at that level will stay back and not die. So a support who does this beats carry supports and carry supports usually can't roam as well because they will become underleveled and they won't be back in lane in time to really make use of the extra money they earned to snowball. Also a support who roams would usually get more out of a sightstone then anything. About the only way I think a carry support can roam would be if he got a double kill bot then bought a mejai's then roams and gets a kill or two. Then the support can go back to lane and zone the enemy but even then after getting mejai's and the first few stacks on it; it usually becomes better to just give the rest of the kills to your team because if you die your team will lose a lot of damage.

KinjishiMar 18, 20161 votes

"Don't get me wrong I LOVE supports and I enjoy laning with someone, but lately the aggressive supports I like have kinda been taking kills on purpose... a lot.. haha"

Hey, saw a mile away. Need that S mastery for Hextech chest? Well... gotta get them kills and assists. Some people have been building like this for some time... but it will become more prevalent with the Hextech being a thing.

SP DodgecityMar 18, 20161 votes

Thats true, so does the ranking system do a general grades? Actually... how does their grading system work? I have my own idea but tbh I actually have no confirmed info on how that works.

Sometimes I have a perfect KDA, i win lane, and i upgrade my wards.. and I get like an A- haha

How does that work exactly?

KinjishiMar 18, 20161 votes

Riot won't tell us specifics because then people could game the system. Basically it compares your KDA and overall performance in game to everyone else on NA server and assigns a grade (from what I've read of red posts before).

SP DodgecityMar 18, 20161 votes

Thats lame... hahah It seems they don't tell us a lot of stuff to keep people from working the system.... But thats ok I still get decent grades... I pass my classes i swear mum

Truly PridefulMar 18, 20161 votes

I wouldn't call that aggressive as much as greedy. I queue with a support who builds mostly damage on some champions, but they still know how to hand kills off if possible. Now that you're rewarded for your grade this will happen more often unfortunately. Glad I have a duo at least. :(

SP DodgecityMar 18, 20161 votes

I would love to have a duo partner like that haha XD Thats what im missing right now, a nice duo partner to have fun with in bot lane.... But I agree the tahm that kept taking kills even told me, "let me carry you cait"

... umm aight... haha