The last fix Conqueror needs (not a troll post)

The Ecdysiast·Apr 26, 2019·1 votes·2,724 views

The fix is to cut down on the number of stacks a single, multi-hit ability can grant in short succession. Making it per-ability would work for some champions, but not all of them. Specifically, it'd work for champs like Riven and Kled, whose abilities have multiple instances of damage on one cooldown, but wouldn't work for those like Irelia and Hecarim, who simply have abilities on very short cooldowns.

So the way to implement the effect to work for both cases would be to put a built-in timer on Conq, so that it will not get stacks from the same ability within 5 seconds (like it already does for over-time effects).

Doing this would, I think, alleviate the problem enough to avoid another complete overhaul of the rune (or deletion). (and it would open up room to buff its numbers, making it more available to the champions who don't stack it by spamming one ability)

27 Comments

ZephyrDrakeApr 27, 20192 votes

so what you want is the final nail in the coffin for conqueror? that sort of change will literally completely invalidate the rune for so many champions in the game that are not an issue with the rune while doing absolutely nothing to the vast majority of those who the rune is actually strong on

The EcdysiastApr 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

so what you want is the final nail in the coffin for conqueror? that sort of change will literally completely invalidate the rune for so many champions in the game that are not an issue with the rune while doing absolutely nothing to the vast majority of those who the rune is actually strong on

Did you... read the post? Try countering the points.

ZephyrDrakeApr 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vXA735xX,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-04-27T15:52:59.920+0000)

Did you... read the post? Try countering the points.

why should I? you are doing noting but destroying conqueror for people that are not an issue with while leaving it untouched by the majority of the problem champions that use it. Hell it would just be a "why should I even bother with this thing that nobody except those who 'abuse it' can use"

The EcdysiastApr 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

why should I? you are doing noting but destroying conqueror for people that are not an issue with while leaving it untouched by the majority of the problem champions that use it. Hell it would just be a "why should I even bother with this thing that nobody except those who 'abuse it' can use"

So you didn't read the post, gotcha.

You do understand that the champions who are too strong with it are that way because they do something those who don't, can't, right? A change like this wouldn't effect those who don't stack it with one ability. It would only affect the "problem champions".

And as a result, there'd then be room to buff its flat numbers.

ZXImmortalApr 26, 20191 votes

Why do u want to buff riven. Just make it off autos only and buff the ad like fervor.

The EcdysiastApr 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Why do u want to buff riven. Just make it off autos only and buff the ad like fervor.

It wouldn't buff Riven...? This would specifically nerf Riven, so she can't use one Q to fully stack it.

ZXImmortalApr 30, 20191 votes

I mean she has 3 abilities to proc it and with her autos and animation cancelling will proc it way faster than most bruisers

The EcdysiastApr 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I mean she has 3 abilities to proc it and with her autos and animation cancelling will proc it way faster than most bruisers

Do you not understand the post?

I'm saying make it so she can't get 3 stacks from Q, just 1.

ZXImmortalMay 1, 20191 votes

Do you not understand riven? You can shorten the q animation and get alot of auto attacks off in a short period of time and proc ur conq faster than alot of other champs

The EcdysiastMay 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Do you not understand riven? You can shorten the q animation and get alot of auto attacks off in a short period of time and proc ur conq faster than alot of other champs

Yes, I know.

but the change would mean she doesn't get 3 stacks or the reset FROM. THE. Q. ITSELF.

ZXImmortalMay 1, 20191 votes

So its a nerf to champs who cant use abilities as fast as riven and these champs will be nerfed while riven will be better than these champs because she was nerfed less because she can still proc it so ur nerfing alot of champs thay didnt need nerfs

The EcdysiastMay 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So its a nerf to champs who cant use abilities as fast as riven and these champs will be nerfed while riven will be better than these champs because she was nerfed less because she can still proc it so ur nerfing alot of champs thay didnt need nerfs

No, it's not.

Okay, let me try to spell it out.

Other champions don't have abilities that would be effected by this change. They already can't stack conqueror with one ability because they can't cast one ability that fast in the first place. They would not be nerfed in any way. Just like how champions who don't deal DoT aren't effected by the fact it currently can't stack more than one every five seconds from DoT.

ZXImmortalMay 1, 20191 votes

Kled renekton w procs conq 3x aatrox fiora camille etc would be nerfed but hey at least ur mages would be buffed without reason. Why not just make it based of auto attacks like season 7 when it was balanced. Mages dont need access to another keystone while bruisers only have conq.

The EcdysiastMay 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Kled renekton w procs conq 3x aatrox fiora camille etc would be nerfed but hey at least ur mages would be buffed without reason. Why not just make it based of auto attacks like season 7 when it was balanced. Mages dont need access to another keystone while bruisers only have conq.

Well, yes. They would. But it would open up room to have the flat numbers buffed to help the champions who don't abuse it like that and compensate for the change without reinstating the abusable mechanic.

It wouldn't make it viable on mages though.

TobykachuApr 26, 20191 votes

Conqueror is a trash rune right now because of a few select champions who make it look insane. Don't nerf conqueror, nerf Riven directly

The EcdysiastApr 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Conqueror is a trash rune right now because of a few select champions who make it look insane. Don't nerf conqueror, nerf Riven directly

Riven has not received any buffs in a long time, so claiming she's suddenly the problem is false. It's because of Conqueror. And this sort of change would help the problem without ruining the champion.

LTK KoRoApr 27, 20192 votes

using same logic i can claim that Conqueror isn't a problem either, here's my example: Before his Q bugfix Conqueror hecarim was shit tier, after Q bugfix he's suddenly strong, which means that Conqueror was never the problem.

The EcdysiastApr 27, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vXA735xX,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-04-27T07:34:13.697+0000)

using same logic i can claim that Conqueror isn't a problem either, here's my example: Before his Q bugfix Conqueror hecarim was shit tier, after Q bugfix he's suddenly strong, which means that Conqueror was never the problem.

No, not really. Because you're using one champion and a change on said champion to try and say a rune he wasn't using before is op. Try actually following logic before pretending you know what it means.

LTK KoRoApr 27, 20192 votes

heca was using conqueror before the q bugfix but ofc mr. logic works only in your arguments

conqueror isnt a problem, riven is. if +10 champs are balanced with conqueror and riven is not because she synergises better with it then nerfing her directly is the best choice

The EcdysiastApr 27, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vXA735xX,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-27T10:20:07.612+0000)

heca was using conqueror before the q bugfix but ofc mr. logic works only in your arguments

conqueror isnt a problem, riven is. if +10 champs are balanced with conqueror and riven is not because she synergises better with it then nerfing her directly is the best choice

Evidently, you're just wrong. All of them being bumped to 50% or higher, with the only exceptions being champions who received the kind of nerfs you want for Riven, is not "balanced". It's a clear indication that the rune is unbalanced. Just like with Courage of the Colossus. Just like with Cinderhulk when it was introduced. just like with Stopwatch when it was introduced. We have plenty of examples where a rune or item overpowered an entire class or subset of champions, and some champions were unfairly nerfed prior to the nerf to the rune/item that was actually the problem, resulting in the champion getting buffed later.

Luckily, Riot understands this now, and isn't just blindly agreeing with the people like you who don't understand it. They may not see my thread, and may end up with a different change. Hell, they may be forced to make the same mistake again because so many people don't understand this concept. But the fact she's been untouched for so long is because they know it's the rune, not her.

TobykachuApr 27, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vXA735xX,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-27T01:06:21.577+0000)

Riven has not received any buffs in a long time, so claiming she's suddenly the problem is false. It's because of Conqueror. And this sort of change would help the problem without ruining the champion.

It's because of how insanely well she synergises with conqueror, in a way that absolutely no other champion does. Sure, nerfing conqueror would nerf Riven, but it would also nerf plenty of other champions that are in perfectly balanced or even potentially weak spots. Do you know how you can nerf Riven without nerfing other champions? By directly nerfing Riven.

The EcdysiastApr 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It's because of how insanely well she synergises with conqueror, in a way that absolutely no other champion does. Sure, nerfing conqueror would nerf Riven, but it would also nerf plenty of other champions that are in perfectly balanced or even potentially weak spots. Do you know how you can nerf Riven without nerfing other champions? By directly nerfing Riven.

It's not absolutely no other champions though. Every single champion who takes Conqueror stacks it way too quickly, otherwise they just take PTA. Most of them are sitting at 51% or above, so a hit to conqueror only hits abuse cases won't mess with them.

TobykachuApr 27, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vXA735xX,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2019-04-27T08:00:13.212+0000)

It's not absolutely no other champions though. Every single champion who takes Conqueror stacks it way too quickly, otherwise they just take PTA. Most of them are sitting at 51% or above, so a hit to conqueror only hits abuse cases won't mess with them.

So your logic is to just kill the rune completely? If people only take it because they stack it quickly, otherwise they'd just take PtA and you want to make it harder for them to stack it?

None of the champions who take it, outside of Riven, are massively problematic. Hence, the champion needs a look at, not the rune.

The EcdysiastApr 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So your logic is to just kill the rune completely? If people only take it because they stack it quickly, otherwise they'd just take PtA and you want to make it harder for them to stack it?

None of the champions who take it, outside of Riven, are massively problematic. Hence, the champion needs a look at, not the rune.

Again, Riven isn't massively problematic with it. She's just the fastest at stacking it. This kind of change would not hurt those other ones nearly as much.

Think about it, Darius still uses the rune despite being the one who's hurt most by the penalty on DoT. You're completely wrong in thinking that such a change would have such a gigantic effect.

TobykachuApr 27, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vXA735xX,comment-id=000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-27T13:23:13.888+0000)

Again, Riven isn't massively problematic with it. She's just the fastest at stacking it. This kind of change would not hurt those other ones nearly as much.

Think about it, Darius still uses the rune despite being the one who's hurt most by the penalty on DoT. You're completely wrong in thinking that such a change would have such a gigantic effect.

Then which is it? Either the rune is what's making her OP or she isn't 'massively problematic with it'. Darius uses the rune because he quite literally does not have a run that synergises well with him.

The EcdysiastApr 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Then which is it? Either the rune is what's making her OP or she isn't 'massively problematic with it'. Darius uses the rune because he quite literally does not have a run that synergises well with him.

That's a false dichotomy. She isn't massively problematic with it. It is problematic with champions with multi-hit abilities.

TobykachuApr 27, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vXA735xX,comment-id=00010000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-27T15:47:38.639+0000)

That's a false dichotomy. She isn't massively problematic with it. It is problematic with champions with multi-hit abilities.

It's not though? Hecarim and Rek'Sai are the only two that are doing noticeably well with it and both of them are getting directly nerfed this patch. Why should Riven receive special treatment? How many other champions are out of line with this rune? Please tell me.