Black Cleaver, Ninja Tabi, Deaths Dance - pretty hard to kill.

Nhika·Jul 13, 2019·2 votes·1,490 views

3k gold, 20% cooldown How about we drop the cooldown to 10%?

3500 gold, rough. Let's drop it to 3k, but take out the cooldown?

best item in the game For how much damage reduction it gives, I think it shouldn't give as much movespeed as other boots.

As far as OVERALL boots pricing, they should all drastically decrease in cost; just so players don't feed as hard.

Or if you're laning into a bad matchup you aren't FORCED to drastically alternate your primary build.

17 Comments

Mitsuk3Jul 13, 20192 votes

Stfu. These items are ok. Fucking Mage/ADC items are shit . fix these

SuicidePlankJul 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Stfu. These items are ok. Fucking Mage/ADC items are shit . fix these

This.

NekorusJul 13, 20191 votes

This.

Critmaster GarenJul 13, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Stfu. These items are ok. Fucking Mage/ADC items are shit . fix these

mages dont need better items.

item 3802 is one of the most broken items in the game.

im playing more mages top lane recently than im playing my main, because theyre just so much stronger.

if anything, item 3071 should get a buff and not a nerf. just ramp up the health by 100, so it makes it at least better as a defensive item over triforce.

Tahminatrix Jul 13, 20191 votes

Really, you want black cleaver to get more hp so it will be even more desirable to get for ad assassins who already get plenty of damage from the item and abuse the **** out of its passive when combined with lethality.

Critmaster GarenJul 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vTF1EgAI,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-07-13T17:46:45.996+0000)

Really, you want black cleaver to get more hp so it will be even more desirable to get for ad assassins who already get plenty of damage from the item and abuse the **** out of its passive when combined with lethality.

i dont really see ad assassins build black cleaver since they reverted the recipe to item 3044 + item 3067

assassins dont appreciate the gold investment into health. they used to buy it a lot more when it had less health and more ad. the only time ive seen cleaver on an assassin recently was when their whole teamcomp was ad champions, and i had 350 armor on garen and everyone on our team had at least tabi.

that was an exceptional situation. even in that case he built cleaver late, and i question his choice over dominiks.

Tahminatrix Jul 13, 20191 votes

http://na.op.gg/champion/zed/statistics/mid

40+% pickrate build that involves black cleaver.

Both builds that involve black cleaver have a 60% winrate and a high enough pickrate for the stats to not be skewed, the only thing that rivals building this item third is item 3026 which has a much lower pick rate due to its natural tendency to be a matchup specific counter, just like maw.

Critmaster GarenJul 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vTF1EgAI,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-13T18:07:32.987+0000)

http://na.op.gg/champion/zed/statistics/mid

40+% pickrate one build that involves black cleaver.

Both builds that involve black cleaver have a 60% winrate and a high enough pickrate for the stats to not be skewed, the only thing that rivals building this item third is which has a much lower pick rate due to its natural tendency to be a matchup specific counter, just like maw.

thats still surprising, because cleavers armor shred isnt fronloaded. assassins tend to want to frontload all of their burst and dont have the time to get cleaver stacks on an enemy. id have expected to be item 3036 the much more frequent choice for exactly that reason.

its 200 gold cheaper, has 5 more ad and the armor pen is 35% frontloaded instead of 24% stacking up.

might be a zed specific thing. even then, cleaver is generally not a very strong item since they nerfed the armor shred, adn buffing its health would benefit assassins less than juggernauts.

Tahminatrix Jul 13, 20191 votes

Most ad assassins kill enemies through a lot of small bursts.

Khazix q + auto + item 3074 active + w all proc black cleaver for the next q auto to hit extremely hard.

Infact, if I were to play khazix I might even opt to build item 3748 instead since it means each of my auto attacks proc 2 black cleaver stacks, I would proc 4 just from doing auto + active which is an auto reset and allows for safer 1v1.

All of zed`s shurikans + e + auto attack will stack up black cleaver for his ultimate to hit incredibly hard.

Also consider the fact that black cleaver gives 20% cdr and 40 ad ontop of a large amount of health which compliments their naturally small healthpool.

Most assassins will atleast go down the sorcerery tree as a secondary which means transcendence is an easily accessible option. (converts extra cdr into ad) meaning item 3071 has the potential to give a lot more ad than item 3036 which doesn't even give hp, nor does it synergize with lethality, unlike black cleaver.

Critmaster GarenJul 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vTF1EgAI,comment-id=0001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-13T20:15:47.998+0000)

Most ad assassins kill enemies through a lot of small bursts.

Khazix q + auto + active + w all proc black cleaver for the next q auto to hit extremely hard.

Infact, if I were to play khazix I might even opt to build instead since it means each of my auto attacks proc 2 black cleaver stacks, I would proc 4 just from doing auto + active which is an auto reset and allows for safer 1v1.

All of zed`s shurikans + e + auto attack will stack up black cleaver for his ultimate to hit incredibly hard.

Also consider the fact that black cleaver gives 20% cdr and 40 ad ontop of a large amount of health which compliments their naturally small healthpool.

Most assassins will atleast go down the sorcerery tree as a secondary which means transcendence is an easily accessible option. (converts extra cdr into ad) meaning has the potential to give a lot more ad than which doesn't even give hp, nor does it synergize with lethality, unlike black cleaver.

what are you talking about?

item 3036 armor pen synergizes exactly the same way with lethality as shred.

the hierarchy is

% shred, then % pen (both multiplicative stacking with each other), then the flat pen from lethality.

especially in short burst rotations the upfront pen is worth more than cleavers stack mechanic, because the shred has to be stacked up with your abilities before you can benefit from it. so if youre just going for short poke trades, by the time cleavers shred is stacked up, the trade is already done and the damage applied.

health is less important to assassins than flat ad.

Tahminatrix Jul 14, 20191 votes

%shred reduces their armor, meaning your lethality is worth more.

%pen takes place after lethality

More health on an assassins is deceptively good, especially on ones who have small windows where they are vulnerable before they can jump out.

Critmaster GarenJul 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vTF1EgAI,comment-id=000100010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-14T01:47:44.700+0000)

%shred reduces their armor, meaning your lethality is worth more.

%pen takes place after lethality

More health on an assassins is deceptively good, especially on ones who have small windows where they are vulnerable before they can jump out.

% pen takes place before lethality. they changed the ordering of armor pen and shred in season 3 or something like that.

which makes % shred and % pen equal in its interaction with lethality, and it makes % pen and shred stack multiplicative with each other.

https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Armor_penetration

from this article in the lol wiki

Order of calculations

When attacking, armor penetration and armor reduction are considered in the following order:

Armor reduction, flat

Armor reduction, percentage

Armor penetration, percentage

Lethality

this means item 3071 shred and item 3036 pen are worth the same in their interaction with lethality. the only difference is, that dominik has a much higher frontloaded pen value than cleavers delayed shred value even at 6 stacks.

the fact that cleavers impact is delayed, makes it much worse in short trades and poke, and even in all in fights dominiks will net you a lot more damage even compared to fully stacked shred from cleaver.

this makes dominiks a way better damage multiplicator for assassins in pretty much any situation. the only reason to buy cleaver would be for the cdr. but theyd be paying more gold, and get far less damage out of the item than they would with dominiks.

Mitsuk3Jul 13, 20191 votes

AD assassins are the most weak role rn (except Kha'Zix who's really strong) . Even adcs can do more damage than assassins. Ezreal can do more than that with 2 abilities.

Mitsuk3Jul 13, 20191 votes

Dude that's what I really want to say. I mean Fix these broken items but none understood me.

SuicidePlankJul 13, 20191 votes

So is an ADC with Lifesteal and his 2900 PD that gives a massive Shield. :) Lets add something along the lines of Janna, Yuumi etc. to it and huh.

With less Gold spent, he is even more 'unkillable'. :O

Soul DealerJul 13, 20191 votes

Honestly I hate black cleaver more then any other item in the game. I hate it because it gives good damage and armor shread while also providing 400 health so you are decently tanky. Deaths dance is also annoying because I fell like sustain is too easy to get in this game. Ninja tabi is fine imo.

heroikcJul 13, 20191 votes

item 3047 already nerfed because of being abused by marksman. item 3071 kind of makes it less useful than item 3078 , item 3025 , etc. item 3812 going to have to change the recipe, since the 10% cdr comes from item 3133 .