Buffing Certain Items (Sunfire Cape)

Tusutaki·Feb 10, 2015·23 votes·2,109 views

Before the Sunfire nerf from having initial 40 magic dmg per second, it was regarded as one of the best early game items in the game for tanks. They nerfed Sunfire to scale with your level so you can have the same amount of damage at level 15 while slightly stronger at lvl 18. But when you achieve lvl 18 it becomes late game and by late game, it falls off kinda hard as there are other items that are better suited. So these are some small changes I would propose.

Sunfire Cape Stats +450 health +45 armor Passive Unique passive: Deals~~ 20 + (1% of max hp)~~*** 8 + (1.5% of max hp)*** magic damage per second to nearby enemies (400 range).

Credit goes to junglerboy16 for the new and better formula.

This would keep essentially the same early and mid game pressure while buffing the late game potential. Ranging from anywhere of having around 50 damage late game if you keep stacking health.

Yay? Nay? Suggestions? Comments? Tell me what you think.

40 Comments

Leti the YetiFeb 10, 20158 votes

sometimes i think sunfire's damage should deal more damage the longer people stand in it...

but % hp is kewl too

DrMarshSwampFeb 10, 20154 votes

Personally I want to see Thornmail or an AD-based item get Grievous Wounds as a passive/effect.

I just feel that Lifesteal gets a bit out of hand during the mid/late game, with ADCs and Assassins getting lucky crits that heal back a large chunk of their health during fights.

Jungle Lux GodFeb 10, 20153 votes

I feel that Sunfire Cape's damage isn't the problem, as its damage is quite fine, and tanks shouldn't deal tons of damage anyway, especially passively.

Right now, Sunfire Cape suffers because there are other items that fill the same role of Sunfire Cape that don't have any negative drawbacks. In some cases the damage on Sunfire Cape actually hurts you a lot more than it helps, with some cases including taking aggro from turrets and jungle creeps and forcibly pushing minion waves.

It doesn't need numerical buffs, it just needs a freaking toggle so these negative cases don't happen.

TusutakiFeb 10, 20151 votes

I think having a potential turret aggro and pushing minion wave is a good pay off for having a decent AoE damage. That is if this suggestion actually goes through.

I just want Sunfire to actually be worthwhile during late game. Lets say you didnt buy Sunfire early-mid, why would you want to buy it now? What benefits would it provide compared to the other items?

PickleBabahFeb 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I feel that Sunfire Cape's damage isn't the problem, as its damage is quite fine, and tanks shouldn't deal tons of damage anyway, especially passively.

Right now, Sunfire Cape suffers because there are other items that fill the same role of Sunfire Cape that don't have any negative drawbacks. In some cases the damage on Sunfire Cape actually hurts you a lot more than it helps, with some cases including taking aggro from turrets and jungle creeps and forcibly pushing minion waves.

It doesn't need numerical buffs, it just needs a freaking toggle so these negative cases don't happen.

I feel like, with this discussion being made, Sunfire Cape is supposed to hurt you because of its potential to be powerful. I would rather buff Sunfire to make it more up to par, so it feels like a risk, while still having it be a great early game item than have straight up no drawbacks.

Jungle Lux GodFeb 11, 20151 votes

Thing is, no other item gives the kind of risk that Sunfire Cape has.

The closest thing(s) we have to it are Tiamat/Hydra, in the fact that it has the same kind of auto-pushing nature of Sunfire Cape due to auto attacks, but you can gate your own pushing by not auto attacking, but you don't automatically take turret aggro for attacking a turret.

I also forgot to mention that the Sunfire Cape aura has a lot of invisible power because it does a DoT as an aura. It really should not be that powerful if its power is largely invisible.

PickleBabahFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thing is, no other item gives the kind of risk that Sunfire Cape has.

The closest thing(s) we have to it are Tiamat/Hydra, in the fact that it has the same kind of auto-pushing nature of Sunfire Cape due to auto attacks, but you can gate your own pushing by not auto attacking, but you don't automatically take turret aggro for attacking a turret.

I also forgot to mention that the Sunfire Cape aura has a lot of invisible power because it does a DoT as an aura. It really should not be that powerful if its power is largely invisible.

I might be horribly wrong, but I think that the real meaning of invisible is a power / buff that provides some sort of small upper hand while being barely noticeable a.k.a old Janna passive (invisible power here is MS) / Zilean passive (global exp boost).

On that note, regardless of being able to be purchased or not, Shyvana's damage is also a DoT "aura". It isn't really invisible because it is noticeable. It is a completely deliberate action to buy an item, so the effect thereof is not invisible; it is deliberate and noticeable.

Tiamat / Hydra are supposed to function in the same manner that Sunfire Cape is, I believe, as it is most likely in the greatest interest for those who buy Tiamat / Hydra to auto-attack, so it really is a pushing tool, because it is their job to auto attack. Saying that you can "gate your total output AoE damage" while last hitting by not auto-attacking doesn't make as much sense because you will still deal the same amount to the minions around (unless you position yourself in a way to minimize AoE). In that sense, because Tiamat / Hydra is a pushing tool that is very powerful (has +75 AD), why shouldn't Sunfire Cape? The risk should be something to be rewarded, because pushing a wave is a very powerful and risky element, and, as such, shouldn't every tool concerning wave pushing be as well?

Simply my two cents.

Jungle Lux GodFeb 12, 20151 votes

The difference between Burnout and Sunfire Cape is that you actively see the Burnout dealing damage, but you don't see the same thing with Sunfire Cape. However, this makes sense because Burnout has a duration and Sunfire permanent with Sunfire Cape.

Just because it is a deliberate action to buy an item doesn't mean that the effect is visible. The opponent doesn't really see themselves taking damage from Sunfire because Sunfire is on such a weak DoT, and by that definition it has invisible power, just like a lot of the other auras in the game, like Zilean's passive exp boost or Janna's passive ms boost, which are still weak, but still functions as invisible power.

Tiamat/Hydra is, in fact, a pushing tool, but with that item you can control how fast you push. You can't do that with Sunfire Cape without losing CS. And you can position yourself to minimize AoE so you can keep the minion wave from pushing too hard, just as you can auto attack more to push faster. The risk and reward are things you can play around with the Cleave passive, because the greater risk you take, the greater reward you have. With Sunfire Cape, the risk is there, but the reward is not because you cannot push with Sunfire Cape. It just gives some AoE damage that helps you push the lane, but doesn't allow you to push down towers unless you are so tanky that you can effortlessly tank damage from both the enemy turret and the enemy champ and still push the tower.

junglerboy16Feb 10, 20152 votes

I'd say change it to 15 +1.25% max hp and you're set., that way it isn't oppressively strong early (which is why they nerfed it) but the % scaling still caries it into late game.

TusutakiFeb 10, 20151 votes

Would take into consideration. What would the average health by for a tank that rushed Sunfire? I also assume that you would get Sunfire by lvl8 or 10. Correct me if i'am wrong though.

junglerboy16Feb 10, 20153 votes

Well, taking Garen for an example as the stereotypical bruiser who would buy it (who also has a slightly higher than average base health), at between levels 8-10, he would have base health (616) plus his growth stat multiplied by the per level modifiers, he would have between 1160 and 1342 base health, and with the additional 450 from the Cape itself, a total of between 1610 and 1792 health, not considering the possibility of having health enhancement through other items (like Doran's shield) or rune and masteries. With you design, his Cape would deal between 36 and 38 DPS at first purchase, which is about as much as it was pre nerf (which is not good, since the point is to buff it late game). With my idea for scaling, it would deal between 35 and 37 DPS. This seems like a small difference, but for comparison, the current sunfire deals between 28 and 30 DPS, but maxes out at only 42. Your example, assuming about 4K health (which is a general ballpark for a late game bruiser/tank) would deal 60 DPS, mine would deal 75 DPS, and the live one only deals 42 regardless. To be honest, I think my suggestion would do better at something more like 8 base damage +1.5%, so that it would scale best off of health, but get closer to the damage they want for an early rush item (between 32 and 35 damage if rushed), but scaling up to around 68 DPS at the 4K hp late game average.

TusutakiFeb 11, 20151 votes

I see and I actually like your formula as it better and smoothly scales. I'll implement it into my original post.

TalamareFeb 10, 20151 votes

Sounds pretty good

DoraTheBrownFeb 10, 20151 votes

More synergy with my amumu :D it k i guess

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 10, 20151 votes

It would at least feel better, even if in practice it'd be close to the same.

Also, previous damage was 45 per second. It is now nerfed by 2 damage per second.

TusutakiFeb 10, 20151 votes

According to the patch notes on the wiki

V4.1: Magic damage changed to 25 + character level (from 40)

But in a sense, it would would be a great benefit for actual, pure tanks. If a tank has 3.5k, the damage from sunfire would be 55 per second. At 4k, its 60. Now 60 damage might sound a lot but its not often you see a tank have the opportunity to go 4k health. Around 3.5k HP is the average for most tanks I believe.

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 10, 20151 votes

Hmmm. Could've sworn it was 45. Well, that's me wrong, then.

MrPerson10Feb 10, 20151 votes

I'm just going to leave this here: Sion

Have you ever tried to deal with a Sion with over 7k health in combination with a Darius? It isn't fun.

Blue Collar BearFeb 10, 20151 votes

This was already suggested in previous threads, such as Pyro's tank rework thread.

TusutakiFeb 10, 20151 votes

I didnt know about it till now. But why change it to 1% of current health and not max health?

Blue Collar BearFeb 10, 20151 votes

It's apart of his rework concept. It's a soft taunt to tanks, which forces them to be attacked. By reducing their health, you reduce their damage which makes them less of a threat in a team fight. If a tank can't attract a target, then they're bad in the current meta. Pyro seeks to remedy this.

TusutakiFeb 10, 20151 votes

With the suggested stats its a horrible idea. If it scaled with 2% then maybe. Why would we willingly attack someone that just to decrease their already low damage aoe vs other targets? Especially when you have potential of turret aggro. None of the less the damage would heavily fall off during teamfights so that 50 magic dmg per sec becomes around 30 from aoe damage of teamfights so you wont even have a chance to inflict the full potential damage of sunfire

Blue Collar BearFeb 10, 20152 votes

Well, I see Sunfire as more of an ap tank item than an ad bruiser item. It's an incredibly effective item on anyone who stacks magic penetration, because the item damage scales with your magic penetration. For an example, my Alistar build reaches 3500 health end game with 38 mpen, 41% mpen, and 20 magic reduction. On a squishy target, it will deal full damage. 20 + (1% of one's current health) is easily 55 magic damage. That's a huge buff for anyone building a moderate amount of health.

On a full tank Sion who reaches 7000 health late game, Sunfire would deal 90 magic damage. For giggles, let's say he's fighting a target with no scaling magic resistance at all. Damage is only reduced by the 30 base magic resist. That's about a 25% damage reduction. That's 68 damage to an adc. Even on a target who has built at least one magic resistance item with scaling magic resistance glyphs and growth (100+ mr), it would still only deal about 40 damage.

Both of these champions are incredibly difficult to kill in a team fight. Let's say that these two champions are on the same team. They both manage to lock down an entire team with their aoe cc for five seconds total. Sion would deal 450 magic damage (2250 to the team total) and Alistar would have dealt 275 (1375 total) magic damage. That's a lot of damage to give a champion who has built full tank. This is not a low aoe damage threat. Sion would burn down entire teams, and be very difficult to take down.

TusutakiFeb 10, 20151 votes

On a full tank Sion who reaches 7000 health late game

Yeah no unless you are farming for hours and against bots. Doesnt happen.

They both manage to lock down an entire team with their aoe cc for five seconds total. Sion would deal 450 magic damage (2250 to the team total) and Alistar would have dealt 275 (1375 total) magic damage. That's a lot of damage to give a champion who has built full tank.

You're assuming that locking down 5 enemies WHILE being around all 5 of them for 5 seconds which rarely, rarely happens. Im not even going to factor in 7k health Sion.

Blue Collar BearFeb 10, 20151 votes

base (1784) + W passive (700) + Mallet (700) + Warmog's (800) + Sunfire (450) + Randuin's (500) + Banshee's (450)

That allows for a little over 5000 health. I may have been thinking of season 4 tank jungle Sion. To have Sion's passive generate 700 bonus health is not uncommon. I usually reach that point at thirty minutes in a good game. If I factor in the extra health from Juggernaut (5384 + 162 = 5546), 1% of his maximum health would be about 55, making Sunfire deal 75. To the entire team, that's 375 damage per second to the entire team. I gave you a realistic number. Factor it in.

In a team fight, it's not uncommon to be able to lock down two or three champions and the other champions either attempt to peel or dive the enemy team. That allows for Sunfire to deal damage to the entire enemy team. I have now given you a realistic scenario.

I stand by what I said. That's a lot of damage to give a full tank who does not die easily. By making the damage scale off of current health, it adds a new layer of complexity and depth to team fights for tanks. It allows them to do their job better, which is to redirect damage to themselves.

TiaxFeb 10, 20151 votes

Sunfire damage is not really the issue, it does what it is designed to do.The problem is that the defenses are not cost efficient and it is also an early game item. Generally you want a very efficient early game rush that falls off or have lower cost efficiency but to have stronger strats, in this way sunfire contradicts itself. I would love to see a 400-500 gold increase with a corresponding buff to armor/hp (same cost efficiency), that way it still is balanced all around but doesn't feel like a liability in the late game. Or maybe even shift around the build path so you could still get a sunfire passive early (mini sunfire item) and then later get the fully upgraded tankier one later.

Kam913Feb 10, 20151 votes

I like the idea. This could actually bring tanks back into the meta. Mundo and Singed would be pick or ban

Big LincolnFeb 10, 20151 votes

Sejuani yes pls

Miku Lv101Feb 10, 20151 votes

Still seems like it could be op to rush it on a few champions like the old sunfire cape was. I think this is too big of a buff. For someone like Mundo that could easily have 2000 hp by the time he has this, it's already as strong as the 40 power old sunfire cape was back then, which was a big part of why he used to be op. And endgame this is too much more damage than the old one did.

TusutakiFeb 10, 20151 votes

Not really actually. It would still scale the same as in order for the suggested Sunfire to deal equal damage to the pre-nerf, you would have to be about level 13. By level 13 Mundo would have 1557 health. With Sunfire he would have 2k health.

Compared to the current, lvl13 Sunfire would deal 38dmg while the suggested damage at lvl13 would deal ~40.

Essentially its a 2-4 damage difference.

InsaneSamuraiFeb 10, 20151 votes

Well it still pretty much counters some champs entirely, so buffing it would be really really bad for them.

Jesus is SaviorFeb 10, 20151 votes

You know what would be a great buff?

Add an enchant to it for like 400-500 gold or whatever.

This enchant makes it give the same amount of armor and hp as randuins.

It is now slot efficient on tanks when full build.

Tin TarantinoFeb 10, 20151 votes

There is an item in Tome that leaves a flame trail that burns enemies based on a % of the users max health each second they stand in it, always thought it could work for tanks in league. The sunfire change is good too, having tank items scale with tank stats would be a positive change

TotalJerkFeb 10, 20151 votes

So we're giving everyone an Amumu W?

PerishSoftlyFeb 10, 20151 votes

No. Amumu's W deals damage based on the TARGET's maximum life. This proposed change would deal damage based on the item holder's life.

TotalJerkFeb 11, 20151 votes

Considering the fact that tanks typically have more health than anyone else, that makes it even stronger than Amumu's W.

killd0zerFeb 10, 20151 votes

Honestly not a bad idea. Does hurt it as a single defense item, but I kinda like it. Would make mundo super fun.

BIFFFeb 10, 20151 votes

I agree; currently the damage and stats are poor.

The item only really helps with jungle clears. Once the enemy carries get item 3071 item 3035 or any other ArPen item then your tanks are in for a world of hurt no matter what build they have.

I think there are several Reworks that Rito needs to do to help make tanks more viable. And Items are a good place to start but should not be the central focus. otherwise you will have the same issue of fighters that do great damage deciding to buy tank items. which would make pure Tanks like Sion Leona Nautilus even more of a wasted pick.

If Sunfire did 1-2% of HP as magic dmg why not pick build tanky and use her kit + base dmg to out play Nautilus .

The item would be better across the board but it would not help make Tanky champs with kit problems any more viable.

TusutakiFeb 10, 20151 votes

While I somewhat agree with your statement, Vi is one of the very select few fighters that building tank is viable. Even then there is literally nothing wrong with Sion and Leona. Especially Sion.

But all in all, its supposed to help pure tank champions. Sunfire isnt good alone because you actually need to build tank to reach its full potential.

VarnocFeb 10, 20151 votes

Could it act kind-of like a solar panel? It charges up over time and can be toggled to use up stored energy (SUNfire after all, right?). Possibly make the damage taper off the less solar energy you've got stored up, so that if you have 100% energy, you burn enemies around yourself for a decent chunk of damage, then more consistent damage later, falling off into damage that racks up over a long period of time if you keep it on. Just a thought

-Var