Riot's true burden of knowledge

Tusutaki·Mar 11, 2016·119 votes·5,341 views

You hear this time to time that the reason for timers was because there was a burden of knowledge. That players, newer players to be specific, has no idea when they spawn or anything. Now adding the timers for all the buffs is pretty understandable.

However the true burden of knowledge and perhaps the biggest that for some reason has been glossed over for years, are ratios. In order to know the champion's scaling ratios, you would have to go to a website such as lolwiki as it is not given during champion preview in the store page or even ingame. There is no way newer players to know about a champ's ratios without googling it.

Now I think knowing about ratios is hugely important, more so than anything else imo. As knowing about ratios you can have a a lot better understanding of the champion and knowing what kind of items or runes to run with.

So why must players use an outside source to have a better and clearer understanding of a champion?

72 Comments

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMar 11, 201633 votes

How long does this skill cc for? Ahh, a period of time. Thanks riot.

iHerringMar 12, 20167 votes

1000 times this. It's ridiculous how convoluted some spell explanations are, then right next to it they say "a brief moment" instead of just giving a number.

EvewynnMar 11, 201614 votes

This is not so much a burden of knowledge, but a barrier to access that knowledge.

I always found it weird that the league client was so useless at providing specific information for champs.

TusutakiMar 11, 20166 votes

Maybe its for the same reason not releasing a sandbox mode for fear of "raising the bar."

I wish I was joking about that.

Tobias BracknerMar 11, 20162 votes

Fighting games pretty much require time being spent in training mode to practice certain moves and combos.

Fighting games are extremely hard to get into because you will get your ass beat all the time.

Some people don't like getting their ass beat all the time.

This way, people are on a more even playing field v those who would have the time to hone their skills in a sandbox mode.

AnidanMar 12, 20163 votes

All the time in training mode in the world isn't going to help me predict or read the opponent. That's experience. Experience is the greatest equalizer in these kinds of games, not mechanical prowess, which is what training mode is primarily going to enforce.

Supreme Senpai69Mar 12, 20161 votes

Screw training. I just want to troll around

Serika ZeroMar 12, 20163 votes

in fighting games, you won't get any sort of "combo" knowledge by doing it on enemies. You have to train it first. And some combos are really complex. I remember spending 2 weeks in training mode, like 2 hours per day doing the same shit over and over and over again. Until I managed to do it with a 50% success rate. That was like 2-15 seconds (depending where I screw up) of practicing a combo, feel the timing, etc. That's about 4 times per minute for 2 hours.

Compare this to LoL for example, most skills have cooldowns. Especially combos that use longer one (such as ultimates). Instead of like practice, and as soon as I mess up, prepare to practice again. Here you got to wait for cooldowns over and over again. Making the "practice" much more slow and seemly pointless.

And that's why you think "experience vs the world" is better than actual training. When in fact, for what is considered "Basics". You need to spend A LONG TIME training. Before that "experience vs the world" and "predict the opponent" comes to play, you must understand the basics of what you are playing. And again, for basics, you need training.

Hence why, fighting games require a lot of training. Sure, experience is a good thing. After you learned how to use your combo. Learn at least 2-3 rotations of it so that you won't end up being predictable. But depending on difficulty, that can take a long time.

This is what I was playing in for like 1 year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo-uV-cau0w

TusutakiMar 12, 20162 votes

I dont know why everybody is comparing a sandbox mode of a moba game to a fighting game when both are entirely different from each other. Thats like comparing street fighter to final fantasy.

With sandbox mode, you can create scenarios and practice going against these said scenarios. You can test builds without painstakingly waiting. You can also practice certain skills and especially skills that goes over walls so you can have a clearer and better understanding. Can this skill go through this wall? Is there a certain angle I have to approach this? How big is the actual hitbox? Ect. From a solo que perspective, you would have the tools to better grasp the ingame environment.

But thats just soloQ though. What about ranked teams? Professional play? Dont you think this mode would be of great benefit to them? As said before, creating and simulating scenarios on the fly? Practicing and coming up with new team comps against other comps.

There is so much sandbox mode can offer that I literally have no idea why anybody would be against this. The only reason I heard of them not doing this is for fear of raising the bar which is absolute bollocks.

OneSmoothDudeMar 12, 20162 votes

I dont know why everybody is comparing a sandbox mode of a moba game to a fighting game when both are entirely different from each other. Thats like comparing street fighter to final fantasy.

Uhh, what? Both modes let you practice mechanics in a safe environment. Hopefully that wouldn't be the only thing League's hypothetical sandbox mode would let us do, but I don't know how you can say this wouldn't be part of it. I mean, you even say it yourself that this is one of the things you would want out of a sandbox mode, here:

You can also practice certain skills and especially skills that goes over walls so you can have a clearer and better understanding. Can this skill go through this wall? Is there a certain angle I have to approach this? How big is the actual hitbox?

Sounds an awful lot like fighting game training modes to me.

TusutakiMar 12, 20161 votes

So in other words you just glossed over my other points that actually deviates moba sandbox from training mode of a fighting game.

Tobias BracknerMar 13, 20161 votes

"With sandbox mode, you can create scenarios and practice going against these said scenarios" So you can grind away at practicing scenarios, giving you a key advantage over people who have not grinded away at those scenarios.

" You can test builds without painstakingly waiting" Testing builds is easy. Do math.

" You can also practice certain skills and especially skills that goes over walls so you can have a clearer and better understanding" So you grind away at certain skills to give you an advantage over people that have not grinded away at those skills.

"From a solo que perspective, you would have the tools to better grasp the ingame environment." Yes, after grinding away in sandbox mode you would have an advantage over those who did not grind away at sandbox mode. Hence the fear of making grinding away at sandbox mode a requirement to play LoL. Hence the comparison to fighting games since grinding away in training to get combos down is pretty much a requirement to play.

RhaiMar 13, 20161 votes

Sounds an awful lot like practice in general. If someone is spending time on getting better at something god forbid they might actually get good at it

Tobias BracknerMar 14, 20161 votes

I like practice. Practice is fine. Practice in a sterilized environment and putting hours into it is pretty lame unless I already absolutely love the game and want to do some of the hype shit.

Unfortunately, in League a lot of those little things don't come up a lot due to the nature of 10 people running around a map.

TusutakiMar 13, 20161 votes

So in other words, instead of wanting players to get better you would rather have everybody be dragged down to your level.

Plus to even further to prove you literally have no idea what you're talking about, there's a thing called Divisions in this game where you're placed based on your skill level and play against players with similar skill levels to progress through divisions. Just like fighting games which also rates you on similar system.

I mean, its not like every other competitive game including sports have practice or anything. Right?

Tobias BracknerMar 14, 20161 votes

"So in other words, instead of wanting players to get better you would rather have everybody be dragged down to your level?"

Are you interested in having an argument or are you interested in being an asshole? I would gladly correct your strawman but I'm pretty sure you have lost all interest in engaging in conversation.

Also mad props to bring up something out of left field into the argument. I assume you have a wall of text prepared to elaborate on why Divisions have anything to do with whether or not a sandbox mode should be in the game?

NaharaMar 11, 20168 votes

I get the feeling that stuff like this will be made available in the new client that's currently in alpha testing.

kasfasMar 11, 20168 votes

The more knowledge the better.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/ZVaZ0SStby9GM/200w.gif

Ratios and bases should be added to in-client champion spotlights or descriptions just so we do not have to go in-game or online to find their actual values.

Edit: Did anyone get the knowledge whale reference?

Maple CrusaderMar 11, 20165 votes

I would really like it if they added up the ratios in each of the abilities for every champion. The Base+Ratio is not clear as just having the complete ability value.

IqqiMar 11, 20163 votes

Well first of all yes. There have been tons of posts discussing the fact we still have to go online to a website to look up all champion information. It's got almost nothing to do with technical challenges and has everything to do with Riot not wanting to have to update information in two different places.

Its repeating work. They have to go in and update the game to reflect the new changes as well as the website. Changing some text on a website is probably one of the easiest things you can do coding wise. Changing it in game requires the change to be made to the code (again not hard once it is set up) but someone has to change it, then confirm it is correct and then slate it for the next push. The champion data is not perfectly accurate and it never will be. Its far easier for them to change this stuff online in one simple place that is accessible to everyone and does not repeat work.

TusutakiMar 11, 20165 votes

Its far easier for them to change this stuff online in one simple place that is accessible to everyone and does not repeat work.

What kind of mental gymnastics is that? That does not make any sense what so ever when

They add in text with skill descriptions and there isnt any coding needed to add "this ability does x dmg with .7 ratio" in the box
They already "repeat work" on the descriptions whenever they change a champion's base value so making it include ratios would make no difference.
The ratios is already in the coding, all they need to do is essentially copy paste
Lolwiki is not ran by Riot

IqqiMar 11, 20164 votes

{quoted}

What kind of mental gymnastics is that? That does not make any sense what so ever when

They add in text with skill descriptions and there isnt any coding needed to add "this ability does x dmg with .7 ratio" in the box

They already "repeat work" on the descriptions whenever they change a champion's base value so making it include ratios would make no difference.

The ratios is already in the coding, all they need to do is essentially copy paste

Lolwiki is not ran by Riot

Hi. Riot has their own webpage with all this information. Maybe you have heard of it. Its called http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/

I know. Amazing. No need to thank me.

RocketRelmMar 11, 20164 votes

Great, now respond to the other three (much more important) points. I know the fact that you can respond to one of them makes you 'think' you can slip the ignoring of the others under the door, but really it looks like you don't have any kind of answer at all.

Tobias BracknerMar 11, 20162 votes

It's repeating work. That's the place where Riot updates specific stats. If players care about ratios, they can look it up there. Putting ratios in the forfront of the game offloads a lot of knowledge that is already implied with a champ's role.

TusutakiMar 11, 20161 votes

repeating work

Stop this meme. By that rational, they should stop working on fixing bugs because thats repeating work.

Your reasons are extremely flawed in a lot of ways.

if they care, they'll look it up

So you support withholding key and vital information from the player for essentially no reason that can have an impact on their game and overall performance. Why are you so against having key information in game? Why would anyone have figure out to look somewhere else when its EXPECTED to be in the game itself?

Tobias BracknerMar 11, 20163 votes

"So you support withholding key and vital information from the player"

" withholding key and vital information"

"withholding" http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/

"Why would anyone have figure out to look somewhere else when its EXPECTED to be in the game itself?"

Here is the train of thought.

I wonder what the ratios are of certain champs Let me Google it BEHOLD THE LABYRINTH THE UNWARY PLAYER MUST GO THROUGH TO FIND RATIOS ON CHAMP ABILITIES.

TusutakiMar 11, 20162 votes

Congrats, you proved literally nothing nor countered any of my arguments.

So again, answer my question, why do you support withholding vital information in game and expect players to search information outside the game? But you wont since you literally just defended not having a sandbox mode. You're either really dense or a troll. If troll, 7/10 you got me to take you seriously.

LaerethMar 11, 20165 votes

The information is not withheld. It is on Lol's website.

Could they add it to the client ? Probably, it would save some clicks on the web.

Is it impossible to get and "withheld" ? Far from it.

MatezoideMar 11, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Well first of all yes. There have been tons of posts discussing the fact we still have to go online to a website to look up all champion information. It's got almost nothing to do with technical challenges and has everything to do with Riot not wanting to have to update information in two different places.

Its repeating work. They have to go in and update the game to reflect the new changes as well as the website. Changing some text on a website is probably one of the easiest things you can do coding wise. Changing it in game requires the change to be made to the code (again not hard once it is set up) but someone has to change it, then confirm it is correct and then slate it for the next push. The champion data is not perfectly accurate and it never will be. Its far easier for them to change this stuff online in one simple place that is accessible to everyone and does not repeat work.

Yeah man, you are right. They should just remove item and abilites description since you can just check on the website!

Tobias BracknerMar 11, 20165 votes

Way to be an asshole.

PB4UAMEMar 12, 20163 votes

You're being down-voted, yet your point is merited; to attack a straw version of someone's argument is most ungentlemanly.

EfficientDynamoMar 11, 20165 votes

You are missing the point. Would you want to play Mass Effect, Skyrim, or a similar storyline based game if you had to go to the company website in order to access the background info and lore? Of Course not. A similar principle applies here, where players can't get a solid idea of whether a champ is meant to scale with levels, AP, AD, etc. more without going to the company website. Of course it is hard work, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.

Imagine going into a game and building full AP on Zyra. Yeah it wouldn't be horrible, but her low scaling makes mpen MUCH better on her.

That said, no reason for them to update the current client if they fully intend to incorporate this information in the new one.

SP DodgecityMar 11, 20162 votes

My quesiton is how on earth does the 3rd party know? Where do they get the information and how?

TrapinProgressMar 11, 201620 votes

its easy! riot tells us so every patch lol (or you could just get a flat amount of damage and then calculate it off of that)

RandomoniumMar 12, 20163 votes

They also tell you on every champion page on their website. Agree this info should be in the game though.

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/

Slamurai JackMar 11, 20165 votes

{quoted}

My quesiton is how on earth does the 3rd party know? Where do they get the information and how?

It's not that hard to figure out a ratio just by buying some AD or AP and then hovering over the ability. You have 100 AP and your W has a green +20 on it? Then it has a 20% AP ratio. Really not that difficult.

SP DodgecityMar 11, 20162 votes

I know that, and thats easy to do ingame, but its really unproductive for a website to look up each champion, buy items, and do manual calculations. SO Im saying there's a main source for all champs thats easily accessible. Im thinking its on the league site under champion descriptions...

Slamurai JackMar 11, 20163 votes

Honestly, I see no need for it. League is the largest game in the world and thus has the largest community support in the world. The League Wikia will give you all the information you need at any time. I see no reason for Riot to make their own database when what we have is sufficient. I hold the same stance on replays; those that really want them have numerous ways at their disposal of recording and viewing replays with little effort. Those who bash Riot for not implementing the system themselves are merely looking for something to complain about.

Mech0pMar 12, 20166 votes

an in game replay system would help with trolling players that can fly under the radar because they got a kill and never said anything toxic

Slamurai JackMar 12, 20161 votes

You think Riot is going to watch the replay of every game where someone gets reported for trolling?

Blue Moon WolfMar 12, 20163 votes

I'd do it if someone payed me to do it. That said, would Riot ever pay people to do just that? As for anything in a business, the answer would boil down to "will this end up increasing the profit margin?". It might, but let's be honest, Riot likely isn't going to risk finding out.

Velzard of KozMar 12, 20161 votes

Yeah you know, there is whole bunch of things that can be used too (how many times the reporter reports, how many times the player has been reported etc.) to consider level of validity of the report and in case it reaches certain measure, a message with profile, match history, chat history and replays of the player would be sent to be investigated so they would reduce amount of invalid reports. They wouldn't just have the reports sent to them, they would process them certain way.

What people like you don't realize is that a programmer's job is not only to hit keys to write some fancy codes but also to think (that's what you are supposed to do with your brain) so that they consider "things to cure". That's why programming is so connected to mathemathics - because basic math is about logic, thinking and phenomena relations, not "numbers".

So yes, If they cared and would take the risk, they would pay someone who is actual proffesional and educated programmer to sit down for more than 1 minute and instead of excuses would design actual algorithm considering as much things that would help the system as possible. Plus on systems like these usually work set of people that can brainstorm solutions faster.

At my college, they don't teach us "So you are supposed to decide this statement? Do they expect you to check it for every value?", instead they teach us "Think of a way how to simplify it, there is, you know, like five different approaches for deciding statements, decide which one is more efficient, make it general, then proceed with specifying it."

I don't expect Riot to do it, but your argument is simply invalid nearly everytime it is used.

Mech0pMar 12, 20161 votes

that's the thing they wouldn't have to because you should be able to take out like a ten second clip and add it to the report section this way you just pick what the worst thing they did was and send it to em

Blue Moon WolfMar 12, 20161 votes

The info is available to those who know where to look (Surrender@20 can provide a lot of the stats for new champs), it's just that it's not easily accessible and you would likely have to look at multiple sites in order to find everything.

Tobias BracknerMar 11, 20162 votes

Because new players already have to learn a lot of League when they start playing and a lot of ration information is implicit based on the champion's role.

Actually caring about specific ratios is some pretty high-tier stuff when you think about it.

AkeydelMar 11, 20163 votes

Yeah, but it would sure be nice to know the difference between, say, Karthus 's 30% scaling vs Lux 's 70%. As it is there is NO INDICATION of these numbers ANYWHERE in the client, besides some quick mental math in-game, which is really not the time or place to be learning about them. It would (and should) be a simple matter to add the ratios to champion skill descriptions.

Personally, I didn't realize there were such extreme differences in scaling until I was past level 15, at least. I would have definitely appreciated an in-client source. Or even an in-client link to the info site they provide, but do not introduce to new players.

BluePolarizerMar 12, 20161 votes

no its pretty important for even noobs to care about a 30% scaling ratio vs a 150% scaling ratio. Otherwise, Kha'Zix's jump looks AMAZING, feels AMAZING and thus it should be maxed first... right? Why max that puny weak Q?