Why is Doran's Shield still unaddressed?

Tusutaki·Mar 11, 2016·210 votes·9,732 views

Just how many threads do I have to make for Riot to realize that Dorans Shield desperately needs to be looked at? How many times do I have to prove that the Shield + 1 start is mathematically terrible in every way? Even 2 Reju Beads + 4 pots is a better start on most top lane champs as 1.2hp per sec FLAT regen is terrible all around.

And the best part about this? SHIELD DOESNT EVEN BLOCK 8 DAMAGE! It blocks damage before resistances is applied rather than after! So in reality, you're blocking 5 damage or below and the fact that the value even lowers the longer the game does on.

It's practically the only item in the game that loses value over time. This is nothing but a glorified noob trap item that a lot of people still buy.

120 Comments

SaiannaMar 11, 201680 votes

[Rioter_1]: Did he just said buff doran's shield? [Rioter_2]: I think he meant nerf doran's shield [Rioter_3]: Wtf is doran's shield? Can i nerf it? [Rioter_4]: No no no guys, You completely read it wrong. He asks for Rammus nerfs [Rioter_3]: Oooooh, should we nerf just Rammus or all tanks? [Rioter_2]: If we are nerfing tanks, ten lets nerf... Some mages too! [Rioter_4]: good idea! [Rioter_1]: We'r doing so amazing job that I think I'll ask for raise

PaladinNOMar 11, 201637 votes

That's on the PBE - what makes it onto live is this:

Patch notes: [Rioter_3]: We just nerfed Irelia.

Sry, I just couldn't help myself. xD

KoggyStyleMar 12, 20164 votes

irelia op, nerf warwick :D

ArakadiaMar 12, 20165 votes

Freaking Xin Zhao needs some of those buffs man, no one is playing him and hes too UP.

SilenceToJijiMar 13, 20163 votes

I still don't get why they removed Armor from Duran's SHIELD

Makes 0 sense

The only reason they made the change to single target damage was to help bruisers vs AP top

That made the item shet

PaladinNOMar 13, 20163 votes

Duran? Which one? Samir or Duran?

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/2/28/SamirDuran_SC1_Head1.png/revision/latest?cb=20080627231654

http://duranduran.warnereprise.com/images/mobbg.jpg

It could be the wrong game. :D

Unless you meant Doran, ofc. item 1055 item 1056 item 1054

But on a more serious note...is Doran's Shield used much in pro-play? Seemingly that's the only marker on whether an item is addressed or not. If it is used much there, then there is no need to nerf it (following Rito Logic™). I gotta ask, as I don't follow LCS myself.

allthemuslimsMar 11, 201618 votes

I didn't know 2 rejuvination beads gave me 80 more hp to help survive the burst I'm going to need to recover from. I get your point, but there are upsides to the D Shield. I think that it being the only D item that isn't gold efficient off of base stats needs to be addressed though.

TusutakiMar 11, 201619 votes

If you all with both 100% health then yeah but that isnt the case 90% of the time. When during lane phase you have trade damage. While that 80hp will help you, the Reju beads will surely heal the same amount in a short amount of time. The health regen from beads scales too which is really important here.

Even with bad trades, you will not only recover faster than shield with beads but also you have plenty of pots with it making you have 600 effective in lane health from pots alone vs 230 from shield + 1.

In order for Shield's passive to recover the same amount of remaining health 4 pots would have, it would have to regen for 5 minutes non stop.

So the question boils down to how long you want to wait. 15 seconds to recover 150 health with a pot or 2 minutes with the shield?

And at least the beads builds onto items too so you can obtain your powerspike sooner.

Voluug13Mar 11, 201610 votes

Exactly, if you dont misplay ot extend too much, you will NEVER be bursted unless its a 3 man gank or some fuckery like that. Most champions on toplane depend on harrass and trading but not outright bursting. The only exception I can think of is the Queen Cheese Riven, but for that cloth + 4 is still WAY WAY better that Doran +1.

allthemuslimsMar 11, 20162 votes

Yeah, I get that it adds sustain. The reason to go Doran's is that you want to survive that level 2 Riven/Quinn cheese, back, then tp into your lane with relevant items. If you take the an-I mean rejuvenation beads you die to that early all in and have to blow your tp without getting decent items. The idea behind D Shield is good, but in its current form I agree it doesn't quite accomplish its goal. Maybe they'll add 5 armor back or something?

High5Mar 12, 20161 votes

I can't tell if this thread is serious or not. Riven is even more of a special case. If you buy cloth, she's basically useless.

Huang PoMar 12, 20162 votes

what if she started with armpen reds?

Bat BotMar 12, 20162 votes

Common misconception about armor is that armor pen counters it. % armor pen counters armor, but because armor is more effective at lower amounts its a direct counter to armor penetration.

Say riven hits you for 300 damage in a combo. With 100 armor this would reduce it to 150 damage. If she had armor penetration of 20. Instead she'd hit you for 168 damage. An increase of only 18 points of damage or a 12% increase in damage .

However, if you had only 20 armor. Her 300 damage combo hits you for 249 damage. But with armor penetration, it goes up to 300 damage... a 51 damage or 17% increase.

Armor penetration is expensive both in runes and on gear. Armor by contrast isn't, 9 armor in seals and a cloth armor completely negates an armor pen runepage. As a second reason its a hard counter.

63536895_DELMar 11, 20162 votes

Those 3 extra pots from starting beads will help you recover.

JESUSSAYSNOMar 11, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I didn't know 2 rejuvination beads gave me 80 more hp to help survive the burst I'm going to need to recover from. I get your point, but there are upsides to the D Shield. I think that it being the only D item that isn't gold efficient off of base stats needs to be addressed though.

The primary starts right now are ruby+2pot and cloth+4pot. Dorans+1 gives an effective 230+regen hp+block before resists. Cloth+4 gives an effective 600hp+15 armor with 300g towards a build path. Ruby gives an effective 450 hp with 400g towards a build path. In no way is shield gold effecient in terms of HP or damage reduction compared to any other bulk starts. Even longsword+3pot has more effective hp by twofold.

KnoyleMar 11, 20169 votes

Honestly, I just go item 1029 and 4x item 2003 so I am at least at the start to build an armor item. And I end up having plenty pots for longer laning to boot.

StonemperorMar 11, 20168 votes

Maybe they'd read your thread if you chose a more professional tone to address the problem

Shadowjak101Mar 11, 20162 votes

99% of LoL boards posters seem to be entitled brats

Eternal ZenMar 11, 20165 votes

99% of all statistics are made up on the spot....

EvilRabbittMar 12, 20163 votes

I thought it was 150%?

alagoreMar 12, 20164 votes

17%

TusutakiMar 11, 20167 votes

Sorry, I didnt know stating facts is a "unprofessional tone".

Next time i'll make a thread making fun of Teemo.

StonemperorMar 12, 20163 votes

The facts are valid and so is your point, it's just that your language, right off the bat, is very passionate..

High5Mar 12, 20162 votes

True. Complaining about Riot not personally caring about an issue is pretty childish.

On a scale of 1 to a champ is currently disabled in prod, this isn't very important.

The forums should be about good discussions, not 1:1 communication between developer and customer. Riot tends to feed the @Riot problem though, so you never know. Complaining about insignificant issues could lead to a response.

FrickendaChickenMar 11, 20167 votes

If they do fix it, they will have to tread on only Top laner's toes. And only so that it blocks more damage and not heals more.

If it becomes too sustain based, then the item can allow someone to mostly just passively sit in lane.

However, if it becomes protection based, then it supports short skirmishes that help you come on top.

But the problem falls under, what if the new protection outdoes the healing and damage on Doran's Blade? The Buff Blade! But buffing Blade will cause mid lane assassins to be too strong in the mid lane and possibly even top lane. So when really you wanted the meta to shift for tanky characters, the game will most likely spiral into an assassin meta.

So buffing Doran's Shield is probably not the answer, but a mastery is, or could be.

P.S. I meant no offense to this, you are perfectly correct, Doran's is way to weak. But everyone might be looking at the problem too closely, or not close enough. Idk, I'm not in Riot Games, I don't eat Bagels.

GypsyleeboyMar 12, 20167 votes

Make Doran's Great Again

TusutakiMar 13, 20162 votes

#BuildaShield2016

EpikFeederMar 12, 20165 votes

Hmmm item 1056 Gives AP item 1055 Gives AD item 1054 Gives Armor.....wait a second here. I see what you did Rito.

OrangesilkMar 13, 20163 votes

Well, it's supposed to give "defensive stats".

Though I'd be happy if we kept Dorans Shield and had it give actual armor. And if we had Dorans Cape and it gave MR.

Anu3isIIMar 11, 20163 votes

I think they just want it to be bad until they find a new defensive item that would seem "good".

You underlined the problem with it perfectly, but lets be serious, when Dorans Shield will be good, it most probably will become a must-buy on most of the tanks, and maybe the tank-support meta will come back (and Morgana will be banned forever xD).

I doubt they will ever fix it, and if they will do it, Dorans Shield most probably will become a weaker and cheaper version of the current one.

mike in the boxMar 11, 20163 votes

eh, dorans intend to be must buys. Cull or Doran's Blade for ad Doran's Ring or The Dark Seal for ap Doran's Shield for tank.

problem is its too generic. The should make a second tank doran item so they can make each more specific and powerful.

DarkRitualMar 11, 20163 votes

Doran's shield, for damage blocking. Doran's Vest, for health/regen.

The DeckownerMar 11, 20163 votes

item 1029 + item 2003 is way better than item 1054 in any circumstance

III BAKURYU III Mar 11, 20162 votes

100 % agree Garen maybe with passive but if against a counter pick I choose Cloth if you want to cs without dying 50 times cloth.
Vlad same thing but cloth can be built into zhonyas.
Doran can be built into...............
Also How do we know if it actually block any Dmg it says 8 dmg but it feels like ZER0 at times.

Lovely PantsMar 11, 20163 votes

Riot does talk about Doran's shield every once and a while. The answer is always this:

Doran's shield basically never functions as it is intended to. It doesn't actually end up supporting melee champions vs ranged when it's powerful. Most champions that you would think would want to use it have sufficient options in most situations that they would rather take. It's not really a priority right now to look at what to do with its space.

They probably should just remove the item from recommended builds on most champions though in the mean time.

TeCoolMageMar 12, 20163 votes

Fun fact: rejuvenation beads beat Doran's shield in gold efficiency past 8 + 1/3 base HP Regen. With 3 rejuvenation beads, you need 4 HP Regen to beat the 6 flat HP Regen without considering the 80 health.

This is when calculating gold efficiency by flat HP regen, not % HP regen, which has its own numbers for the sake of calculating its upgrades.

It's great on Gnar and Soraka if you don't need support items, but it kinda sucks on the 1/3 champs with above 8.33 HP regen. It beats Doran's blade in terms of HP Regen (from lifesteal), and it goes great with champs like Katarina who don't have mana or auto attacks. However, it lacks the offensive stats, so it depends on your playstyle and how efficiently you use these stats.

SouchyMar 12, 20163 votes

item 1054 "This behaviour is highly inefficient!" Heimerdinger item 1006

Champion SkinApr 1, 20161 votes

Heimerdinger passive OP...so much base hp regen

chide da junglerMar 11, 20162 votes

They don't want toplane to be a haven for passive playing. Don't expect anything with HP/5 to be good.

Only Play DariusMar 11, 20165 votes

They buffed Gnar specifically because (quoted from the patch notes) "he wasn't doing his job of ~~making toplane inhospitable for fighters and tanks~~ bullying tanks and fighters out of top lane"

God forbid there be champs that need some CS before they can fight their opponent. Riot thinks those guys are boring and want to make the game fun which is why they are determined on making it impossible to get good defense early.

AnidanMar 12, 20164 votes

On the other hand, God forbid there be any lane bullies.

FortisDominusMar 12, 20163 votes

ranged lane bullies at top lane are cancer. bullies like renekton and darius, i can deal with

The Yetii RiderMar 11, 20162 votes

Doran's shield as it stands is very useful in helping new players who are adjusting to item actives learn how to manage health in lane.

You can argue "But that just creates bad habits, they should learn how to use pots from the get go!"

The new player experience is already awful, let's not make it any worse.

The only way to buff the item is to give it a more active passive, like "When you slay a minion restore 4 health" or "When you deal damage to an enemy champion, you take 20% less damage for 1 second".

That might make the item better, but it will make it harder to use. There needs to be a few noob friendly items in the game.

TusutakiMar 11, 20164 votes

No where did I imply that Shield shouldnt be a noob friendly item. I want to use another word because "noob" friendly doesnt describe it. Generic? Easy? Beginner? Idk but to my point.

I agree Shield should stay as an easy to understand item, however I wont stand on Shield's current state because when I say a lot of people still buys it, I mean throughout the whole elo spectrum and professional play. And it doesnt take a challenger or a professional to see a flaw within an item. Hell, I want a reason to buy it but I dont. I havent for the past couple seasons.

The Yetii RiderMar 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No where did I imply that Shield shouldnt be a noob friendly item. I want to use another word because "noob" friendly doesnt describe it. Generic? Easy? Beginner? Idk but to my point.

I agree Shield should stay as an easy to understand item, however I wont stand on Shield's current state because when I say a lot of people still buys it, I mean throughout the whole elo spectrum and professional play. And it doesnt take a challenger or a professional to see a flaw within an item. Hell, I want a reason to buy it but I dont. I havent for the past couple seasons.

We don't need supports buying Doran's Shield again. Its passive nature is what makes it suited for support characters, but its skilless nature is what makes it good for beginners. So that's something you need to address. Just buffing the stats won't solve anything, but giving it % health regen will get Leona, Thresh, Blitz, Alistar and Braum's base health regen all nerfed.

TusutakiMar 11, 20162 votes

As I stated in one my comments, yes, Shield was objectionably OP at the time. If you want to know how OP it was in terms of value.

+100 hp +10 armor 8hp per 5 blocks 6 dmg from autos

Using today's gold value: 200 from armor, 267 from health, and 288 gold from health regen.

Back then, Shield had a value of 755 gold. Thats not including it's passive either.

Current Shield's value? 429 gold. That is a 44% decrease in power.

However I dont know why everybody says buffing shield would make it the primary item for everybody again when that does not have to be the case.

Hell, I would be fine with if Shield just actually blocks 8 damage as advertised and maybe have 10hp per 5. Not too strong especially since you would only have 1 pot.

MaikalMar 12, 20162 votes

Agree. Mathematically worse than cloth 4 and even ruby crystal with 2 pots.

SohleksMar 12, 20162 votes

Dshield actually has its niche. But maybe it could use a tiny buff.

I know your math and logic might not agree but if your champion is a passive manaless top lane farmer versus an auto attack focused champion (ranged especially) you use dshield in such a way you draw a tiny trade to get your opponent begin pushing his wave but not enough to feel the pain with your one potion._ With his wave starting to push you are no longer as pressured to contest the lane to reach cs._ You kinda want to be a champion with a ranged cs'ing tool yourself though like Gnar, Shyvana, Vladimir, or Mundo (Shen used to be in this category too) so you can obtain a few of those cs yourself. Overtime you can make the regen and mitigation of the shield make due for you.

Playing like that optimally your jungler at least makes his presence known top so you don't get barraged farming under tower.... but I don't think any starter item can expect to change brutal melee vs. ranged matchups

You end up coming ahead after your first shop since you didn't start and consume 200g on potions to compete with dshield. And now you hold dshield + items to take revenge. Potions are very expensive this season.

Dshield is very niche and requires you to know exactly what you're doing to pull out a slight and passive advantage.

VelasanMar 12, 20161 votes

Not that it couldn't be buffed, but I don't actually see a problem with doran's shield. It has it's niche case uses and in those cases it's a strong item. Even if it does only block 5 damage a time per hit that adds up.

Is it the best item ever? Probably not. On the other hand I don't know how much more efficient it needs to be considering the stats on it are pretty good.

Arsenic SulfurMar 12, 20165 votes

But there are so many better starts. Cloth+4, Ruby+2, Corrupting, other Doran items, Relic+3, even Rejuv and Null+1 starts are better than Doran's Shield. Every other start gives more effective HP and either builds into a power-spike or allows you to trade better. Maybe if Doran's was cheap enough to allow Shield+2 then it'd be a decent start.