Courage of Colossus greatly overshadows Grasp of the Undying and Bond of Stone

Tusutaki·Dec 21, 2016·132 votes·6,164 views

Even in Courage's nerfed state, it is still greatly more valuable than the other two. I'll seperate these into sections.

Bond of Stone Has such a marginal impact that you dont even know if its doing anything at all. Where in an average of a 30min game, you'll be lucky if it redirects even 500 damage total. That is an average of 16 damage blocked per minute. And the initial of 4% damage reduction for yourself is also non existent where it can be taken out of the game without anyone noticing the changes.

Grasp of Undying It had it's limelight when it both dealt and healed for 3% of your maximum health. Yes it was strong for it's time but with the introduction of Courage, it marginalizes it's purpose. Grasp was supposed to help tanks sustain throughout the lane phase and help those who lacked in damage. However nerfing that sustain away makes Courage all the more valuable.

In what circumstance would I ever want to choose Grasp or Bond over Courage? Is the issue that Courage is too strong or that the formers are too weak? Because I will be honest, I almost never used Grasp or Bond even before Courage came into play. I just find those keystones that weak.

103 Comments

WoonStruckDec 21, 201625 votes

Grasp was severely over-nerfed, and honestly affected laning more than late game, despite scaling.

Bond of stone was over-nerfed and any support that might take it would rather take CoC.

Both need to be replaced.

BoS is passive, unseen power, something Riot's crusaded against several times.

Grasp grants damage+sustain for simply building health; something that ends up being must-have or too weak on any melee that builds HP.

MelledoneusDec 22, 20161 votes

I think Grasp could be reworked into something that provides sustain rather than pairing it with damage. Say you get an increased base HP regen buff for a few seconds, like a selfish Vorpal Blade.

Bond of stone should have a window of power. If the nearest ally sustains heavy damage and Bond of Stone is up, it could probably start redirecting damage heavily to you, mitigation considered. If your carry wasn't one-shot, you have a chance to save them, at the cost of being able to do it again for a while.

FoodtankDec 21, 201620 votes

I think this is similar to what happened with Thunderlord's Decree a while back. Riot tuned over several patches, and it became strong on LITERALLY EVERY CHAMP. Riot nerfed Thunderlord's, but what really achieved balance was the reworks of the other keystone masteries: Windspeaker's and Stormraider's got buffed, and the ferocity keystones went through several iterations of rework. I like CoC where it is now, maybe needs a slight nerf, but really I think Grasp and Bond of Stone need buffs to bring balance.

ModKnightsKemplarDec 21, 201616 votes

Agreed. CoC isn't the problem, it's the other two.

I like what Bond does right now, but it needs more, similar to how windspeaker's got to add MR and armor in addition to buffing heals/shields. There's nothing that says you can't have multiple effects on one keystone.

Gregor GysiDec 21, 20161 votes

Honestly, Bond needs to be removed. It has the typical Aura issue

On the other hand, it can be hard to notice the impact of an aura. As a result, auras have ended up overtuned to the point where they become mandatory

And simply doesn't feel satisfying. Also, who is supposed to get it? The other tank masteries feel much more satisfying and there isn't really any champion that couldn't run one of the others. In my opinion we need some tank jgl mastery, as it is right now tank junglers take some mastery they don't really use most of the time in the early game, which isn't exactly satisfying either. Maybe a damage reflection mastery that works on monsters? It wouldn't be abused by non-tanks and it isn't appealing to laners (assuming it's tuned properly).

Glory ln DeathDec 21, 20162 votes

What if it got a more noticeable, windowed effect? Something like "if a nearby ally takes X% of their max health in damage over Y amount of time, you create a bond with them and absorb Z% (like, 20+) of the damage they take for 5-ish seconds. 30 second cooldown"

Really impactful and noticeable (with a really clear "bond" animation - something like Kalista's bond), but not constantly active.

FoodtankDec 22, 20161 votes

i have always thought BoS needed a serious rework, and I think you're going in the right direction, but I find this a little too reactive. Even Grasp requires you to be in combat and attack. To me, a mastery should be something the player decides to use not something you keep around in case your duo partner gets attacked. Like if you and a nearby ally deal damage within .5 seconds of each other, you each get extra resistances for a second or two? Long CD to make it valuable

Glory ln DeathDec 22, 20161 votes

That probably requires too much coordination to be feasible. Since Bond of Stone is meant for Warden-type tanks, it would need to be activated by something Wardens want to be doing. That makes it tough for it to be a proactive activation, though...

Enchanters work because they can target allies with heals and shields, but Wardens are more difficult, since generally they don't target their allies... They want to protect their carries and keep the enemy off of them, which they usually do through CC. It could be another CC activation, but I don't know how well people would receive that.

It could be the opposite of Courage of the Colossus - when you CC an enemy, nearby allies gain a shield and increased armor/mr for a few seconds (small radius for the shield, so it only works if you're guarding your team). Or just a strong damage reduction instead of the shield, plus maybe movement speed? It might need to activate on slows, as well as hard CC, though.

FoodtankDec 22, 20161 votes

Yeah, CoC definitely fills the Warden tank niche well now, Bond of Stone might need to go back to the drawing board. It had a place in the original release of new masteries, but now it doesn't feel relevant. I'm trying to think what would flesh out the Resolve tree: we have long-term tank-sustain, CC-engage, what would make sense as a third? Clearly Riot was going for support tanks being able to keep their ADC alive, but in practice it falls short of feeling relevant.

SpoofghoulDec 21, 201612 votes

Yea but thats because bond of trash and grasp of the underpants are lame and weak

BisaknospDec 21, 20162 votes

xDDD nice names

JbelsDec 21, 20168 votes

3% Max health damage isn't even that big when you think about it. That's 3 damage for every 100 health you have, or 30 damage for every 1000. Most tanks reach 3200 health by late game, or 96 damage per proc. Come on =_=

ChaddyFantomeDec 21, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Koichi Pose,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cOR58TTZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-12-21T15:33:21.991+0000)

3% Max health damage isn't even that big when you think about it. That's 3 damage for every 100 health you have, or 30 damage for every 1000. Most tanks reach 3200 health by late game, or 96 damage per proc. Come on =_=

roughly 100 damage and healing on-hit every 3 seconds is actually pretty strong over the course of a teamfight or duel.

JbelsDec 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

roughly 100 damage and healing on-hit 3 seconds is actually pretty strong over the course of a teamfight or duel.

Compared to a 3000 health shield that you get instantly and lasts long enough to actually eat a majority of the shit thrown your way? I think not

ChaddyFantomeDec 21, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Koichi Pose,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cOR58TTZ,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-12-21T15:41:09.939+0000)

Compared to a 3000 health shield that you get instantly and lasts long enough to actually eat a majority of the shit thrown your way? I think not

Exaggeration on the shield bit but lets actually look at the deets first before looking at flat numbers.

the shield is based on how many people are around you, which means it is only really effective if you are engaging in some way.
the shield's cooldown is high, which means it isn't gonna help you beyond said initiation.
because most champs getting it will either be in solo lanes or the support, and thus the shield isn't used to its fullest yet, especially in the jungle, it is far less effective in lane than either bond or Grasp at this stage of the game.

In extended teamfights, Grasp IS better because it allows you to get more overall effective health than CoC does on a more consistent basis.

Mid game you typically aren't even getting the full shield off, you are typically getting at best a 2 person shield value. Grasp heals and damages based on time in combat, which doesn't have such a skewed consistentcy as all it requires is you auto a champ to proc it.

Champion SkinDec 21, 20161 votes

because most champs getting it will either be in solo lanes or the support, and thus the shield isn't used to its fullest yet, especially in the jungle, it is far less effective in lane than either bond or Grasp at this stage of the game.

in lane CoC will probably be way better for trading in lane with it giving 20-190 hp + 5% max HP shield every 45-30 seconds which will probably be way more then 4% damage reduction

ChaddyFantomeDec 21, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cOR58TTZ,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-21T19:33:01.808+0000)

in lane CoC will probably be way better for trading in lane with it giving 20-190 hp + 5% max HP shield every 45-30 seconds which will probably be way more then 4% damage reduction

I'm not trying to use Grasp in a solo lane trading scenario because honesty who the heck would? People getting Bond are in duo lanes. Plane and simple.

That said, it depends. If you ONLY trade in the window where CoC is up, which again, the cooloff for it lasts a long time, and the trade lasts only that duration, then yes. Otherwise, Grasp will actually be better. Because it can be stacked consistently by being in combat and can be proc'd by simply hitting someone once,

The actual Trade it does is also much more substantial in that one instant since it does bonus damage AND heals you base don said damage,

Lastly and most damming, unless your Hard CC is easy to apply, (point and click for example) you risk not even getting the shield when you trade if or when your enemy dodges it. Grasp doesn't have this issue.

CoC is good. Maybe even too good. But to claim that it makes the other two obsolete if you have any way to proc CoC is ludicrous.

If you are a champ that can easily and effortlessly proc it, then sure, but many champs would prefer Grasp.

Tychusfindlay919Dec 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm not trying to use Grasp in a solo lane trading scenario because honesty who the heck would? People getting Bond are in duo lanes. Plane and simple.

That said, it depends. If you ONLY trade in the window where CoC is up, which again, the cooloff for it lasts a long time, and the trade lasts only that duration, then yes. Otherwise, Grasp will actually be better. Because it can be stacked consistently by being in combat and can be proc'd by simply hitting someone once,

The actual Trade it does is also much more substantial in that one instant since it does bonus damage AND heals you base don said damage,

Lastly and most damming, unless your Hard CC is easy to apply, (point and click for example) you risk not even getting the shield when you trade if or when your enemy dodges it. Grasp doesn't have this issue.

CoC is good. Maybe even too good. But to claim that it makes the other two obsolete if you have any way to proc CoC is ludicrous.

If you are a champ that can easily and effortlessly proc it, then sure, but many champs would prefer Grasp.

Explan darius, arguably the easiest user of grasp with his bleed mechanic, preferring CoC.

Just stop, grasp in its current state is ass.

MirkhailDec 21, 20162 votes

He is also arguably one of the easiest user of coc with his grab. Also Darius can deal enough damage and heal himself without grasp.

ChaddyFantomeDec 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Explan darius, arguably the easiest user of grasp with his bleed mechanic, preferring CoC.

Just stop, grasp in its current state is ass.

Because

His grab is easy enough to use for the Proc.
Just because he can keep it up easily doesn't make it super good on him. Darius doesn't wanna be autoing people constantly. He wants to hit people with the end of his Q to sustain so he can thrive in teamfights and run people down.

Twitch ChatDec 21, 20165 votes

The damage was never the most significant part of the spell. The fat HP swing with the pre mitigation heal is the real reason to take it. As it stands no matter how good with grasp you are and no matter how many procs you get off the massive colossus shield has it beat. Even Darius is taking colossus now. That should really say something.

MelledoneusDec 22, 20162 votes

Meanwhile we have a regular mastery that lets you hit for 3% just by walking into a bush.

3% is a pitiful number.

YumaS2AstralDec 21, 20164 votes

Bond of Stone is basically the definition of invisible power. I don't know why Riot didn't replaced or reworked this mastery when they introduced Courage of the Colossus. Even the old SotA was more useful.

As for Grasp of the Undying, I just think that Riot should remove the damage part then buff the sustain, making it a pure sustain ability.

WhatsLeft4Dead2Dec 21, 20161 votes

Then every champion would use it.

YumaS2AstralDec 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=I2iot Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cOR58TTZ,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-12-21T19:31:39.190+0000)

Then every champion would use it.

Current Grasp works by stacking health. If Riot changes Grasp to give pure sustain, but making it still scale with health, Grasp would still only work with health stacking.

WhatsLeft4Dead2Dec 22, 20161 votes

Yet again, this is the Meta for Tanky Everything. Everyone would still use it. Especially ADC's who can build item 3071 Black Cleaver & item 3022 Frozen Mallet. It might even encourage these buys much more frequently among the ones who shouldn't build it.

There's also the Dangerous Game Mastery that Restores 5% Health & Mana on Kill. Pairing the two masteries up together would create an Overpowered Darius Darius Main.

VelasanDec 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Bond of Stone is basically the definition of invisible power. I don't know why Riot didn't replaced or reworked this mastery when they introduced Courage of the Colossus. Even the old SotA was more useful.

As for Grasp of the Undying, I just think that Riot should remove the damage part then buff the sustain, making it a pure sustain ability.

While I'm not disagreeing with you I just want to say my opinion on this. If you change Grasp to purely sustain then you might as well just give CoC to everyone because then their roles overlap a lot. They both just help to reduce the damage you take in different ways.

I prefer Grasp as a damage mastery for the type of champions who simply want more damage and not yet another way to be tanky. Otherwise if Grasp is going to heal you for 400 or CoC is going to shield you for 500+ (especially when multiple people are around and you get off your CC) then why ever take Grasp unless you absolutely cannot take CoC?

Then that brings us back around to the exact same problem we already having. So, you have to differentiate them somehow, and the only thing that separates Grasp is the damage.

Radiant WukongDec 21, 20163 votes

Before the Grasp nerf, my top lane tanks Volibear Shen Darius Illaoi Nautilus Malphite Trundle Sion Renekton Nasus absolutely feasted against anybody with a ferocity or cunning keystone.

When it got nerfed, it's still the best option for tanks that don't have heavy CC Illaoi Nasus Trundle Olaf , but definitely use Colossus for all the others.

AnagsDec 21, 20164 votes

Honestly I think fervor of battle is better on Olaf now for sure. Really all 4 of them would be better going fervor or thunder lords or stormraiders.

Grasp is pretty pointless now imo. The champs that would use it can make use of CoC.

Radiant WukongDec 21, 20161 votes

I prefer the Fearless/Swiftness over what ferocity/cunning have to offer in those categories. With the exception of Darius Illaoi Renekton the rest don't benefit from penetration or bonus damage.

AnagsDec 22, 20161 votes

Olaf actually benefits a ton from armor pen.

Radiant WukongDec 22, 20161 votes

I get all I need from 40% CDAS, because I prefer to focus on his true damage,

TusutakiDec 21, 20165 votes

I honestly think bringing back the old Perseverance mastery and switching it with Grasp would be perfect. As a reminder, S4 Perseverance used to restore 3% of your missing HP every 5 seconds. I think that would give players actual choices and would help with sustain throughout the lane phase against ranged harassers like Jayce.

Radiant WukongDec 21, 20163 votes

You forgot why it was removed? Garen DrMundo Morgana

WhatsLeft4Dead2Dec 21, 20163 votes

Pfft. I am totally down for this idea. Mundo won't be low tier garbage anymore. I dislike how almost every top laner counters him now, even with level 1 ultimate. The only thing it's good for until level 3 ult is just to back off, pop like a Long term heal then come back in.

Champion SkinDec 21, 20161 votes

Doesn't Trundle pillar (E) proc Courage of the Colossus?

Radiant WukongDec 21, 20161 votes

I never tried it.

AnagsDec 22, 20161 votes

It works if you get the knock up but you also have to be close. And a lot of the time you aren't that close because you are kiting or chasing.

VelasanDec 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cOR58TTZ,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2016-12-21T19:35:11.382+0000)

Doesn't pillar (E) proc Courage of the Colossus?

I'm actually not sure about this, but even if it does you would only get the proc if it was directly under them to cause a knock up, and even then it would reduce the CoC power because you are not near the opponent you are crowd controlling. Grasp/Fervor tends to be better for Trundle.

Asayake 5150glowDec 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Heir of Lito,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cOR58TTZ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-12-21T15:00:39.776+0000)

Before the Grasp nerf, my top lane tanks absolutely feasted against anybody with a ferocity or cunning keystone.

When it got nerfed, it's still the best option for tanks that don't have heavy CC , but definitely use Colossus for all the others.

Even SIon? With how unreliable his CC can be in lane?

AnagsDec 22, 20161 votes

Sons CC is actually pretty reliable. And CoC is just better mid to late when you are front line.

BastionKrossDec 21, 20163 votes

Basically it boils down to: Which resolve keystone do I want?

Do you have hard CC? If yes, then you want CoC. If no, then you want a keystone from another tree.

Grasp was made impotent from all the nerfs Riot hit it with. Bond is so invisible it might be bugged and non-functional and we couldn't tell the difference.

Welcome to the resolve tree.

RivuoDec 21, 20162 votes

They nerfed Grasp because ranged champs were abusing it which i found funny as fuck considering that mastery is supposed to be for melee champs to sustain against ranged champs.

PermabannedGarenDec 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They nerfed Grasp because ranged champs were abusing it

Lol? Where did they ever say that?

RivuoDec 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lol? Where did they ever say that?

Patch notes. The people using grasp werent melee champs they were ranged champs ( Gnar to be exact and yasuo )

PermabannedGarenDec 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Patch notes. The people using grasp werent melee champs they were ranged champs ( Gnar to be exact and yasuo )

Patch 6.8: "If you’ve spent some time in top lane during Season 6, you’ve seen Grasp of the Undying again, and again, and again (there’s an Ekko joke somewhere in here). We have nothing against a tank mastery being strong on tanks, but not only is the level of sustain making tanks immovable in lane, the damage turns them from CC bots to killing machines. Who are still CC bots.

This change probably won’t solve Grasp’s problems on its own, but we want to at least tone it down while we continue exploring our options."

Patch 6.12: "Despite our efforts earlier this season, Grasp of the Undying is still far too common in the top lane, crowding out other keystone masteries. Grasp is supposed to give tanks a little more oomph in combat, but its sustain is fairly excessive, cheapening the risk and reward of aggressive action. Grasp of the Undying should still be the go-to mastery for beefy solo lane champions, but combat from Grasp users will now mean something rather than immediately being sustained away."

No patch note that nerfed Grasp mentioned ranged champions at all.

Gnar used it sometimes, but preferred fervor, and Yasuo? Yasuo is a melee champion, lol.

RivuoDec 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Patch 6.8: "If you’ve spent some time in top lane during Season 6, you’ve seen Grasp of the Undying again, and again, and again (there’s an Ekko joke somewhere in here). We have nothing against a tank mastery being strong on tanks, but not only is the level of sustain making tanks immovable in lane, the damage turns them from CC bots to killing machines. Who are still CC bots.

This change probably won’t solve Grasp’s problems on its own, but we want to at least tone it down while we continue exploring our options."

Patch 6.12: "Despite our efforts earlier this season, Grasp of the Undying is still far too common in the top lane, crowding out other keystone masteries. Grasp is supposed to give tanks a little more oomph in combat, but its sustain is fairly excessive, cheapening the risk and reward of aggressive action. Grasp of the Undying should still be the go-to mastery for beefy solo lane champions, but combat from Grasp users will now mean something rather than immediately being sustained away."

No patch note that nerfed Grasp mentioned ranged champions at all.

Gnar used it sometimes, but preferred fervor, and Yasuo? Yasuo is a melee champion, lol.

If you played the game last season you know that grasp was used on ranged champs specifically Gnar.

DessemDec 21, 20162 votes

Has such a marginal impact that you dont even know if its doing anything at all. Where in an average of a 30min game, you'll be lucky if it redirects even 500 damage total. That is an average of 16 damage blocked per minute. And the initial of 4% damage reduction for yourself is also non existent where it can be taken out of the game without anyone noticing the changes.

The issue is that it's also very hard to appreciate. It's hard to notice 6%. Honestly, both of them feel weird. Wasn't item 3105 stripped of its aura because auras were hard to appreciate? Knight's Vow and Bond of Stone both do something similar to an aura: an always-on effect (on a target) that's difficult to gauge what the range is and difficult to appreciate just how much mitigation it's doing for you.

Colossus is big and appreciable, you immediately see how much it does for you. Grasp is/was OK and when solo laning you could really notice it, but Bond of Stone could really stand to be an "alternate" keystone for (tank-oriented) Supports who can't use Windspeaker's Blessing and aren't a damage-oriented Support.

Taric for example. What does he pick? Colossus because he has a (slightly unreliable) stun? Windspeaker for his W shield and Q heal? Bond of Stone? None of them are really amazing for Taric. He just picks "the best from what's available", but not "something that really augments my playstyle."

KoKobotoDec 21, 20162 votes

When deciding between Grasp of the Undying or Courage of the Colossus the only thing you need to ask yourself is if your champion has hard CC lmao

Z StatisticDec 22, 20162 votes

Strength of the Titan Courage of the Colossus Heroism of the Valkyries

Strength of the Titan - Your spells that damage an enemy emit a shockwave from your champion, dealing 10% of your max health as physical damage and slows them for 25% for 2 seconds. 30 second cooldown

CoC - same

Heroism of the Valkyries - Afflicting an enemy champion with hard crowd control causes you and your nearby allies to gain 15% movement speed when moving towards your opponent for 3 seconds. 60 second cooldown.