I just wanna point out that Annie's E is a better tank steroid than Jax's ultimate

FalconPawwwwnch·Feb 8, 2017·67 votes·4,735 views

40% damage reduction is insane once you have resists and it's not even affected by penetration

To put that in perspective,

40% damage reduction on top of 100 resists means you actually have 233.333 resists 40% damage reduction on top of 150 resists means you actually have 316.66666 resists 40% damage reduction on top of 200 resists means you actually have 400 resists....

In what fuckin world does Jax ever get both 160+ armor and MR from his ultimate? He'd need 180 bonus AD and 450+ AP

Also note that this bonus can't be affected by penetration, while Jax's ultimate loses nearly half its value later

85 Comments

ZezockaryFeb 8, 201744 votes

Jax's lasts 8 seconds and has a passive that gives him increased damage.

Annie's lasts 3 seconds and is usually used to give her an extra charge for her passive, meaning it is not being timed well for when she is receiving damage.

I am not saying either one is too strong or too weak in the game as it is, I am just saying that your argument does not hold up well. Personally, I would like to see jax's ult go from being hidden power to being visual power so as to make it easier to tell what is happening, although I don't have any ideas as to how to go about that off the top of my head.

FalconPawwwwnchFeb 8, 201715 votes

Annie's E has an 10 second CD with a 3 second uptime

Jax's ultimate has an 80 second CD with an 8 second uptime

Annie's shield has 3 times the uptime of Jax's R

Alex h8721Feb 8, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Annie's E has an 10 second CD with a 3 second uptime

Jax's ultimate has an 80 second CD with an 8 second uptime

Annie's shield has 3 times the uptime of Jax's R

As a Jax enthusiast this makes me sad :( New ww gets DR, annie gets DR, jax gets weak ass resistances :(

Anu3isIIFeb 9, 20178 votes

Wait for a rework or a class update then?

Annie's E used to have resistances until the Mage Rework.

Warwick was recently reworked.

And again, Jax ultimate isn't just "weak ass resistances", it is also a powerful permanent steroid. If he didn't have that passive, I assure you he would have a "real" Ultimate.

kasfasFeb 9, 20177 votes

Jax imagine if I had a "real" ultimate.

MelledoneusFeb 9, 20173 votes

Jax with Aatrox ult.

Mother of god.

RavenMagusFeb 9, 20172 votes

Fights don't last 10 seconds anyways, so they might as well both be 80 seconds for what that matters.

Also Jax's ulti provides quite a lot more damage than Annie's E.

Also they are two different champs.

I get that Jax is on the weak side right now, but comparing one of his abilities to one of another champion in a completely different role is... well... I dunno, it feels dumb.

AhristocatsFeb 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Fights don't last 10 seconds anyways, so they might as well both be 80 seconds for what that matters.

it's 6 seconds with 40% cdr wtf is your point? it has 3 sec downtime when teamfights are up so it doesn't matter

jax's R provides more damage BUT SHOULD ALSO gives him more tankiness because he's melee and his role makes him needing tankiness

{quoted}

I get that Jax is on the weak side right now, but comparing one of his abilities to one of another champion in a completely different role is... well... I dunno, it feels dumb.

do you have any idea how this comparaison is good because a champion made to nuke in AOE has a better tankiness steroid than a champion made to hard carry and survive because he's melee? your comment is dumb, not his thread

RavenMagusFeb 9, 20173 votes

You're comparing a single ability in one champion's kit to a single ability in a completely different kind of champion's kit.

Annie has more burst damage, more reliable CC, and sure, a better tanking steroid.

Jax has more innate tankiness (partially because he can afford to build tankier items), much better mobility (annie has none), better single-target sustained DPS. His tanking steroid may be weaker, but Annie's tanking steroid doesn't passively allow her to deal a bunch of damage every third hit. He can also build tankier items because his kit gives him higher sustained damage.

What I'm trying to say here is that they are two completely different champions. I don't know why you are even trying to deny that, it's painfully obvious.

Again: I'm not saying that Jax is not weak right now. I can agree with that. But he's not weak because Annie has one ability that's better in one way.

rtbf225618241Feb 9, 20171 votes

And Annie can't jump around every few seconds and doesn't dish out sustain that much. Plus the dodge vs Basic attack champions.

Bots Whilst HighFeb 9, 20173 votes

Meanwhile Annie's ult gives aoe nuke stun that does dot, dps, and blocks skillshots and tanks towers as well as a mini sion passive if Annie dies.

Big LincolnFeb 8, 201714 votes

buff Jax

Arya RivenFeb 8, 201711 votes

This is a thread I can get behind. I miss Jax.

Covert Ops GnarFeb 8, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vOnEqEAM,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-02-08T19:38:34.146+0000)

This is a thread I can get behind. I miss Jax.

O yeah really fun for him to kill me with targeted abilities and right click me to death lmfao

Sraeg2013Feb 8, 20176 votes

So... how is this any different from Annie?

AnidanFeb 9, 20178 votes

It's not, people just think it's better because he was melee. shrug

He's basically a walking stat stick for the most part. I thought the boards hated that crap, but apparently it's okay because it's Jax?

TeCoolMageFeb 10, 20171 votes

"Jax is point and click bs"

"IT'S COZ IM MELEE ISN'T IT? DISCRIMINATION"

"no annie is also bs"

King MerlinFeb 9, 20173 votes

Because with Annie, you left click!

And with quick-casts:

"You only have to click once, fool!" Mordekaiser

Sraeg2013Feb 9, 20171 votes

With quick casts you don't even need mouse buttons.

Covert Ops GnarFeb 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

So... how is this any different from Annie?

who the fuck said annie was fun to play against lmfao

jax has a long range, low cd, point and click jump, hard cc, mixed damage, AA immunity, and right clicks name one point you can "outplay" him besides flashing his stun name one point he can actually fail besides missing his stun

Sahn UzalFeb 8, 20179 votes

https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/71747/3.0

Zero Skill TankFeb 8, 20177 votes

Comparing two abilities from two different kits is pointless. Jax has another defense steroid in his kit, as well as escape, and better affinity for tanking items in general, being a dps champion.

He probably needs buffs, but Molten Shield has nothing to do with that.

Reaper SorakaFeb 9, 20174 votes

So what you're saying is I should play Annie tank to rise to challenger.

WoonStruckFeb 9, 20171 votes

Annie item 3027 item 3116 item 3151 item 3020 item 3001 item 3157 isn't exactly the worst build, you know...

R: magic pen, Y: HP/lvl, B: 6 CDR/lvl, pen/AP/lvl, Q: CDR/lvl

GrReaper96Feb 9, 20171 votes

I prefer 1-shot 45% cdr annie item 3165 item 3152 item 3158 item 3116 item 3089 item 3135

WoonStruckFeb 9, 20172 votes

Also, if you're one-shotting, why Rylai's?

You'd be better off with Abyssal instead, due to the 10% additional damage; more if you include masteries, and sorc shoes over ionian.

BorblandFeb 9, 20174 votes

Pls no circlejerk.

Jax ultimate has a very long duration, meaning he can have this massive resistance boost up all teamfight while Annie doesnt.

Also, Jax's ultimate has an extremely powerful passive, you cant really compare both.

AptestFeb 8, 20173 votes

lets put into perspective that after mid game, jax is absolute bullshit to deal with.

i miss him a bit though, he's cute, with them nashor eyes of his.

Sahn UzalFeb 8, 20179 votes

Building resistances is very effective against him because he has no form of penetration available to him. He's a mixed damage champion, he can't properly use LW, BC, Voidstaff...

AptestFeb 8, 20172 votes

i am not sure you are correct in the few encounters i have had VS a jax, his damage simply outpaces whatever resists you purchased.

Sahn UzalFeb 8, 20172 votes

He's an entirely melee champion. No ranged poke or anything. Getting kited shuts down his entire damage output. A good 30% of his damage output is Magic damage, GA alone reduces al ot of his damage because he can't build penetration.

He needs to deal a lot of damage to even function.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 8, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vOnEqEAM,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-02-08T19:41:15.169+0000)

Building resistances is very effective against him because he has no form of penetration available to him. He's a mixed damage champion, he can't properly use LW, BC, Voidstaff...

Unlike other mixed assholes who get to have their magic damage also scale with AD...

Jayce

Spaceman5pffFeb 8, 20171 votes

That has nothing to do with penetration types though.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 8, 20174 votes

{quoted}

That has nothing to do with penetration types though.

It does if you're referring to jayce. Not only is it hard to itemize against him because you have to get both resistances, but no matter what you'll do he'll always ignore the shit out of your armor purchases because he can buy full AD + arPen and his magic damage grows a lot stronger for doing so.

AhristocatsFeb 8, 20173 votes

i saw you doing like 15 jax threads

you still didn't get that jax is garbage?

ModAcademy KaynFeb 9, 20173 votes

Wow, it's almost like they're two different champions without separate strengths and weaknesses, that on a singular level contradict, but on an actual thorough view, fit into their own design.

AhristocatsFeb 9, 20177 votes

i hate replies like this

jax's strength is a hypercarry, hypercarries are not tanks, they should not be countered by armor or mr penetration annie is a mage, and as a mage she doesn't need damage reduction to tank damage, no mages should have this

jax has virtually no defensive steroid in late game, his E punishes him for using it since the cooldown starts at when you end it unlike riven's Q for example, which means jax's players will only use it to stun and that is what they do in high elo

two different champions with seperated strength my ass, annie's strength isn't to tank damage, jax's strength is to carry for his team while surviving because he's melee but he can't survive he can't even kill tanks he doesn't build penetration

ModAcademy KaynFeb 9, 20172 votes

Yeah, Annie's strength isn't to tank. That's why it's only 3 seconds long. She's also very low range, hence the need for some defense, as most low range mages do (Ryze with shields and speed, Ahri with mobility, Lissandra with Immunity and CC).

I mean, yeah he does. He takes less damage from AOE's and can dodge Autos, on top of the fact that Fighters build a few defense items, with the added bonus of getting free 70 Armor and MR. He also has top tier DPS, with things like Hexblade giving him fantastic sustain with his Empower. (while also having scaling MR too). If a Jax wants to trade, he'll use it for the stun, but if he wants to survive, he's going to keep it up longer.

The reason he doesn't build Pen, is because his natural affinity with attack speed synergies well with Tri-force and Hextech Gunblade, which give him damage and sustain, the things that work well against Tanks.

And i want to point out the stupidity of something. "they should not be countered by armor or mr Pen", that's the fucking point of building pen, to get through the MR and Armor of ANYTHING that builds it/attains it. Fighters don't just get a pass because they aren't stacking it like a Tank. When a role is to damage, it does damage to everything, not specific targets because it "Feels unfair".

Edit: Oh yeah, I also forgot how Annie has a Passive on her E that allows her to deal more damage just for attacking, like you normally would. I wonder if that is a big deal in terms of power distribution when it comes to Jax's ult...

AhristocatsFeb 9, 20173 votes

are you forgetting on purpose that annie's E has 10 sec base cd without any cdr? and it lasts 3 seconds? WTF?????????

annie's strength isn't to tank damage, PERIOD that means nothing in her kit should reduce damage, just like syndra or talyiah

Ryze has his shield and bonus ms because he's fucking busted and needs both of them to be removed lissandra has her ulti making her untargeable not for defense purpose, but **for initiation, she presses E+W+R deals damage cc the enemy team and engage a fight that is her strength since she was released FFS Ahri has mobility because she's "the kite mage" according to riot

annie's E doesn't make sens, it's straight up a defensive steroid on a mage without any reason because she shouldn't have anything defensive she's a burst mage like syndra she should do what a burst mage does**

now jax, he takes less damage from AOE but it doesn't matter because jax uses his E to stun, even if he does take less damage he will still die, it only lasts a few second before he gets annilated in teamfight, "can dodge auto" just forget this part because like i said he will dodge nothing in high elo, "free 70 armor and mr" lol yeah, give me like 20% damage reduction since it's reduced if you already have 100 armor, give me this thing that can be countered by item 3036 unlike Annie which doesn't make a single sens

"the reason he doesn't buy pene is that he has natural affinity with attack speed" thanks sherlock still doesn't solve the problem that a hypercarry can't 1v1 a tank

"that is the point of pene it should counter armor and mr" no that is not the point of pene, pene was never intended to destroy other hyper carries else riven's E would have been bonus armor/mr instead of a fucking shield

ModAcademy KaynFeb 9, 20172 votes

Annie does not have the range of Syndra or the in-combat Mobility/Zone Control of Taliyah. And, for the most part, Annie's E eats out her power budget. If she didn't have her Defensive E (we know sure as hell Riot isn't giving her a dash), than she's going to get more damage because her thing is "Burst Mage". (Liss can ult herself for a reason, it's an ult that can be used defensively or offensively as the situation presents. Don't make it binary)

And yeah, it does make sense. She is a very low range mage, whose entire shtick is to have a single period of Burst to take out her target, and then she kinda hopes she doesn't die afterwards. Her E is a part of that "This time is my kill time" since it's only 3 seconds long, and if she's in range of you, YOU are in range of her. If she didn't have a defense buff, than she needs more damage, as it becomes a contest of "Did I survive your burst? (No) => I'm dead. (Yes) Well, you're dead." which is extremely binary, and the thing Riot tries to shy away from.

It's the exact same reason why Riot gave Talon his over-wall Mobility, or Leblanc her Clone from Ult (the one that appears from anywhere). They're things that AREN'T damage to help eat up power budget, while increasing a Characters power, without adding damage. Annie lost A LOT of damage from her Kill pattern. Early game, it is impossible to 100-0 easily because of it, and late game, if she wants to get in range of other people for her Kill Combo, it requires her getting that close in the first place (withholding Flash, because everyone can have flash for their kill pattern)

PENE EFFECTS EVERYONE. It doesn't matter who, it doesn't matter what, if you're building defense or gaining it naturally, Pen is meant to counter that. It doesn't matter if you're Jax, a Tank, or a mage with Zhonyas, Pen is meant to make anyone with resistances easier to kill, it doesn't matter if you're a HyperCarry or not. They don't get a special exemption from the rule, Pen is meant to make anyone who has resistances easier to kill.

And you're telling me, Jax can't fight a Tank when? Early game when Jax is weak? Mid game when Tanks are strongest? Or Late game when Jax is strongest? Because I'm honestly calling bullshit there. And what if, just maybe, Jax's intended targets to kill aren't tanks, and is weak against them on purpose? Maybe he's meant to get in the backline quick to start poling carries up the ass?

And for a final comparison, let's look at other Mage's defensive measures. Syndra has a huge knockback with a 1.5 stun added if Ball'd, and can cast abilities while moving. She also has more range than Annie. Cassiopeia can deny enemy mobility, gains speed with Q, and can Stun for 2 seconds. Her main damage (E) is low range, but still a higher range than Annie. Ahri has three dashes, a charm and speed boost, with semi-low range, but more than Annie. Annie has damage and a single 1.75 stun, well having literally the lowest range of any mage in the game. Either she get's a defense ability, or she gets more damage and starts insta-gibbing with no counterplay again.

Annie has her buff for her own reasons, and Jax has his for his reasons, each reason different by how they are played, and the aspects of them. Does Jax need a buff? Yes. Does comparing Molten Core to Jax's Ult (Which still has actual damage to it) as a reason for a buff a good one? No.

elon wątrobaFeb 9, 20171 votes

What would you put on her e instead shield?

AhristocatsFeb 9, 20171 votes

idk i don't really care about annie

the point of those posts is just to show that it doesn't make sens that a hypercarry is having armor/mr when a mage is having %damage reduction we don't even know why

ModAcademy KaynFeb 9, 20171 votes

I've been telling you why. Annie lost a lot of damage for that damage resistance. To make her less tanky, would mean to buff her damage, else wise, a character primarily being brought for damage isn't going to be picked, because others have more range, and more damage, than Annie.

HueboneFeb 9, 20171 votes

When the hell was Jax ever a hypercarry? Maybe when guinsoo's rage was a thing, but Shyvana does better, plus he blows up in teamfights in the super late game, where REAL hypercarries do best, not fall off when the carry gets a GA and/or banshee's, his best talent is split pushing and dueling anyone that wants to stop him, that's the only place where he can dream of being a hypercarry because he can't handle a whole team to stop him. Maybe he needs a small buff to be as good as fiora, who's honestly better, but in all honesty, no, he is not a hypercarry, he is countered by mr and armor as it should be.

overman incFeb 9, 20173 votes

GUYS JAX HAS DAMAGE REDUCTION ITS ON HIS E GOD ALL OF U NOOB ASS JAX MAINS

macromiteFeb 8, 20171 votes

now i want to play jungle tank annie

KoKobotoFeb 9, 20172 votes

It's not that good, if you don't have enough damage it often doesn't work out :C -me trying to go for a tanky, tibber focused build

RaoulFeb 9, 20171 votes

Jax Ultimate is mainly used for the third hit damage, the active is more of an additional effect.

On top of that, Annie is an immobile squishy mage, who needs the extra defenses because she is a sitting duck when her flash is down, while Jax is super mobile and tanky by nature.