94.6% of jungle picks at MSI were on the same 4 junglers

Visigoth·May 12, 2015·30 votes·4,626 views

[Spoiler] MSI STATS - Picks & Bans * /r/leagueoflegends

. Season 5 Jungle diversity, where no more than 4 champions are ever viable. And looking at the games from the MSI, http://na.lolesports.com/msi/2015/msi/schedule/group_stage_day_1 you can see that 52 of 56 jungle enchantments were Cinderhulk. Roughly 92.9%. No Riot, shifting from 4 champions to a different 4 champions is not making diversity.

This season went from 1 week of Devourer - Gutted Then maybe around a month or so of Warrior - Warrior receives multiple nerfs and then Cinderhulk is introduced. Then for a good month now we've had Cinderhulk, which because the other items have been nerfed (bar Magus) has almost no competition in strength. Based on this, soon we'll get some sort of Magus buff plus Cinderhulk nerfs that makes Magus the only viable choice And then after that? Well, since we'll have gone through all the items, then I guess Riot will just gut the entire jungle!

So diverse!

60 Comments

Juggernaut628May 12, 201517 votes

Although that's what Riot focuses on for good reason, that was just MSI. Those 4 champs are strong and SAFE which is what the players look for. Come down here and join me in bronze and you'll see all sorts of things; Fizz, Amumu, Fiddlesticks, Nautilus, Xin Zhao, Brand, Diana, Lee Sin, Nocturne, Shyvana, Sion, Hecarim, and Vi have showed up in my games. Yes I said it. Someone played Brand jungle. And my team won with it.

UberAffeMay 12, 201523 votes

Bronze Diversity! because everyone is so bad that it just might work! :P

VisigothMay 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Bronze Diversity! because everyone is so bad that it just might work! :P

Painful truth. In general, lowers level are much more diverse in basically every game. Another prime example is Hearthstone. Low level players in Ranked have WAY more interesting decks than the 3 or 4 you see in higher ranks. People higher up are just sheep, once you get to the point where you become aware of a 'meta,' people are afraid to challenge it.

UberAffeMay 12, 20157 votes

It's not so much being aware of the meta as much as it is being able to abuse the meta. In low elo people can play the meta champs but that doesn't mean they know how to play the meta champ against their opponent or how to make use of what makes that champ meta. In higher elo's people know the champions better and what each of them can do and how they trade, so if a certain champion is stronger than most its like having a full rune page and playing against someone that doesn't, if you are the same skill you are going to win.

DurzakaMay 12, 20152 votes

I highly disagree.

Down in ranks 25-19, the entire thing is FILLED with netdecks people use to try and climb for their card back.

Frankley KarlesMay 13, 20152 votes

Players in higher ranks, competitive players especially, have considerably more on the line than a player in Bronze/Silver. In high elo scenarios where champion/composition weaknesses are exploited far more consistently, players shift to meta picks because they know not only that they work, but that their team knows how to work around it, which is vital in an environment where a "win lane, win game" mentality just doesn't work against more coordinated teams.

It's why champs like Darius and Tryndamere never appear in competitive play: even if they get ahead early, the other team is more consistent in focusing them and shutting them down.

Tl;dr: Competitive players do what works because they need to, especially when there's more than just a game at risk.

TulareMay 13, 20152 votes

This is actually one of the best things about playing a game when it's new, or being new among a group of other players who are also new. The experience of figuring things out, experimenting, finding novel tech, etc. is really exciting. Games with mechanisms to evolve their meta gracefully are wonderful because players can retain their general game knowledge while still having some of that "new game" experience because everything changes regularly. LoL just doesn't have such mechanisms so the attempts to create a balanced meta seem to create a meta that is sequentially unbalanced in new ways. It's an evolving meta but not very graceful.

CraftybeebopboopMay 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Although that's what Riot focuses on for good reason, that was just MSI. Those 4 champs are strong and SAFE which is what the players look for. Come down here and join me in bronze and you'll see all sorts of things; Fizz, Amumu, Fiddlesticks, Nautilus, Xin Zhao, Brand, Diana, Lee Sin, Nocturne, Shyvana, Sion, Hecarim, and Vi have showed up in my games. Yes I said it. Someone played Brand jungle. And my team won with it.

You forgot Ziggs.

DarkwindMay 12, 201516 votes

At least 50.0% weren't lee sin :P

VisigothMay 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

At least 50.0% weren't lee sin :P

No, instead it was Rek'Sai with a 100% pick-ban rate and Gragas with an 85% pick-ban rate

DarkwindMay 12, 201512 votes

yeah, and that sucks, but id still rather see reksai with a 100% pickban rate than lee sin with one.

YCitizenSnipsYMay 12, 20154 votes

I know why would you want to see lee sin over and over when you can have a refreshing change with reksai, the hyper mobile manaless bruiser with a vision impairment.

Kappa

Aych PiiMay 13, 20154 votes

Rek'sai is hardly hyper mobile.

YCitizenSnipsYMay 13, 20152 votes

She has a global gap closer, a gap closer that can go over walls, and a movespeed boost all on separate abilities, how is that not over the top mobility?

Aych PiiMay 13, 20151 votes

Her gap closer has one of the slowest travel speeds of anything of its nature, her movement speed buff is very low to account for the fact that it's permanent as long as she's in her burrowed form (basically equivalent to the different base movement speeds of Elise's human and spider forms) and her "global gap closer" is hardly that. You need to set up the target location manually beforehand, and enemies can easily clear those targets. They also just expire on their own after a while, and you can only have so many out. Moreover, damage interrupts the channel on ehr ult so she can't use it like a TP summoner spell to escape.

LakegaMay 13, 20152 votes

"Slow gap closer travel speed" doesn't matter when it still gets you over that wall 80% faster than going around it.

Just saying.

Aych PiiMay 13, 20151 votes

Yeah, it's certainly not useless. It's just a single gap closer, though, and it has significant shortcomings compared to a lot of other gap closers in the game. This is most likely a tradeoff for the reusable tunnels, but I digress. She's certainly not immobile, but I don't think it's fair to call her hyper mobile either.

Sire HippingtonMay 13, 20152 votes

well, she is rather imobile infight, but her map-mobillity is beyond any other champ besides maybe a full geared bluebuffed Kassadin. This makes her incredible powerfull in the early-mid game as she is very flexible in gankpaths, can transition from bot to top(or top to bot) pretty fast and also invade with rather low risk. However, if she doesn't get an good advantage in the early stages, she drops even harder than pant as her impact in teamfights is prettymuch not existing, she's more or less the easiest to kite champ since udyr.

qetzelMay 12, 20158 votes

At the competitive level you will only play the best champions. Your job is to win the game. There will always be some champions stronger than others. Some champions will therefore almost always be picked over others. This is obvious.

Go down just to diamond and apparently the number of viable champions increases dramatically. The champion pool is more diverse for normal players now.

Focus TeemoMay 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

At the competitive level you will only play the best champions. Your job is to win the game. There will always be some champions stronger than others. Some champions will therefore almost always be picked over others. This is obvious.

Go down just to diamond and apparently the number of viable champions increases dramatically. The champion pool is more diverse for normal players now.

^ even in Master/challenger plenty of champions like Shaco, Nidalee, and Riven are still plenty strong when played properly. However you won't see them in competitive games as they're not as good against well coordinated teams... those type of teams you won't find in the chaos that is SoloQ. Hell the Oddone's most played jungler this season is Olaf... and he has a 67 % win rate with him. In other words viable competitive champion pool =/= viable SoloQ champion pool.

Champion SkinMay 13, 20151 votes

There isn't just that they play the best champions they also play the champions they know and feel they are best/good enough with Which is why some champions suddenly appear and dominate as non of the pros really play that champion or felt that it was good enough and that they weren't good enough on it

like that time Kayle suddenly became OP even though she didn't get any buffs though after that she got nerfed and kind of disappeared again (well then again almost cutting her ap ratios in half on her only two damaging abilities tend to do that I guess)

PartholonianMay 12, 20156 votes

Wasn't MSI played on about 2 patches ago, before multiple nerfs to Cinderhulk and some of the particular champions? So, effectively, you are complaining about a problem that has already been mostly fixed on LIVE, let alone on the patch that is coming out THIS WEEK?

Sire HippingtonMay 12, 20155 votes

i really wonder why, amumu is the better seju atm imo, and Vi is still a beast. Xin also is kinda underated aswell as Wu and pant.

Hard4HamstersMay 12, 20155 votes

Amumu can only engage a fight, whereas Sejuani has more abiliity to disengage if need be. In organized play, they want that option, so Amumu is almost never picked. In solo queue, he dominates because his base damage is so high even when building full tank, and he does really well at fighting other tanks thanks to his MR shred and % health damage. Sejuani has more flexibility than Amumu basically, you see the same thing with Gragas, except Grag has the ability to pressure early much better than both of them thanks to his decent clear and sustain in the jungle with his passive. His damage potential is lower than both of them in the later parts of the game.

Vi I think still is pretty strong. She's a strong enough tank, better than Lee Sin, and has very good early game and clear. Her ult is really strong too, even if it did get nerfed in the early game. Jarvan IV is another champ we haven't seen much of lately thanks to his nerfs to his Armor. He's very similar to Vi so just read what I stated about her.

Xin, Wu, and Panth probably benefit the most from the new BC, so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw them in pro play soon (at least from UOL :P).

Sire HippingtonMay 13, 20151 votes

well, gues it's mostly safty that makes those picks prefered, as all besides nunu can easily pass through terrain to escape bad situations or shortcut on their roams. However, it's still pretty questionable that Vi wasn't played, as she also can pass terain and thus is rather saveasswell, and i also wonder why lee hasn't been picked in the games in which reksai was banned, still the highest early presure jungler after her.

Hard4HamstersMay 13, 20151 votes

Rek'sai is much better later in the game than Lee Sin in terms of utility; her burrow sense is one of the strongest things she has, in addition she has a global ult that let's her be anywhere on the map in a moment's notice as long as she has a tunnel up. She also does better against tanks than him thanks to her true damage and ability to knockup and disrupt.

Vi and Jarvan are kind of like Lee Sin in that they don't have the same utility that Rek'sai does, but I think they are better in this meta than Lee Sin thanks to their armor shred and better disruption ability. They do have an issue in their jungle sustain though, and recent nerfs probably seem to steep for pros to pick up over other junglers.

Lee Sin is just really bad in this meta. The only way he stays relevant is his pick potential in the early game (he must snowball), but he has nothing to fall back on, like Rek'sai does.

Those are my thoughts on it at least. Peace.

Sire HippingtonMay 14, 20151 votes

vi and J4 are way stronger in the late than resai, and even lee has the potential to impact fights way more with a good insec. Vis armorshred+%health on W allow her to deal significant damage to the enemy frontline, and she can dive and lockdown carrys so much easier than reksai, same for J4. Reksai is a walking motionensensor with a occasionally knaockup that without flash rarly reaches the enemie backline, she doesn't offer alot meaningfull stuuf to a fight, which means she falls of hard later if not ahead. If ahead, she can easily help to creat picks and splitpush with her burrow-vision and mapmobillity, but once the enemies are in the driverseat, she's next to usless.

atomicwitMay 13, 20152 votes

Why learn Diana JG etc. when you've had success with Rek'Sai for a long time? It's not always that the most picked JGs are so overbearing. For example, Gragas has a 51% winrate and many JGs like Amumu are quite a bit higher.

Pros want versatility, reliability and a pick they're comfortable with (due to a lot of practice which can't be accumulated instantly on new picks). I was at least happy to see Eve jungle.

Champion SkinMay 13, 20151 votes

Amumu has always had a high win rate though because well... he's ult is so strong and easy to use if you just land Q or flash or something And he deals decent damage over time if he is ignored with his W

Though of course his early game isn't the best and a lot of his teamfight presence rely on him having his ult and he has a hard time getting into position to use his ult if he isn't able to land Q

Spacesuit SpiffMay 13, 20152 votes

Imagine if the folks on ye olde GD could see this... they'd jizz their pants about there being no Lee Sin

GundayMondayMay 13, 20152 votes

Comments like this always crack me up. This is such a deep and complex game. You're assuming that jungle diversity is a problem based on the very elite top tier players picking 4 champions. This is flawed. There is much more thought going into picking a champion at the top level than "pick the most OP jungler". You're looking at team compositions, you're looking at general strategies and counter strategies, you're looking at the champion pools of both your team and the enemy team, and then you're looking at 100 other little things that also matter.

I'm pretty sure you would have seen a pick if anyone ran a protect the KogMaw composition. I'm pretty sure you'd see more assassins like LeeSin Khazix Rengar picked if the enemy was running a 2x ADC comp with an assassin jungler and squishy support. It makes perfect sense that you pick a tanky jungler when the other team has a tanky jungler so that you can actually survive a team fight long enough to win.

This is a flawed argument and needs a little more thought before you declare the sky is falling.

FourVsFiveMay 12, 20151 votes

Dam is urgot that strong to be top ban? I never see him in gold that much. What kind of build do you use on him? I 100% agree with kali,lb,hec bans though.

Champion SkinMay 13, 20151 votes

Urgot is strong in lane... however if he is in bot lane he is much worse then most other ADC's at pushing towers as he is more like an AD caster then an ADC though abilities don't work at towers so with his crappy AS and range... yeah taking towers isn't the best

And his ult is really weird and almost useless unless you have anyone to take advantage of it (though of course the resistances are good)

TotalJerkMay 13, 20151 votes

He counters Zed really hard.

Loken StoneheartMay 13, 20151 votes

Magus is the most cost efficient jungle item. Its one of the most cost efficient items in the game. Its worth like 170% of the gold you spent on it.

Maybe we'll see some appropriate typically-warrior-enchant-using champion nerfs, a slight rework to warrior enchant after that, and then there will be proper balance. Can't buff warrior while Rek, Vi, and Lee are a thing though.

Earl EulrichMay 13, 20152 votes

the problem however is that it doesn´t provide anything AP-junglers need...they just cannot clear without manasustain. So the item is absolutly useless on anyone besides nid, as she doesnßt require mana too clear (and can get the tear anyway without losing out on too much pressure).

So even if they´d have it deliver 140ap for 30g it would still not be helping any ap-junglers (though smite-mid would certainly get popular).

Loken StoneheartMay 13, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vOBPmwHt,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2015-05-13T00:43:38.016+0000)

the problem however is that it doesn´t provide anything AP-junglers need...they just cannot clear without manasustain. So the item is absolutly useless on anyone besides nid, as she doesnßt require mana too clear (and can get the tear anyway without losing out on too much pressure).

So even if they´d have it deliver 140ap for 30g it would still not be helping any ap-junglers (though smite-mid would certainly get popular).

Ranger's Trailblazer-- Restores 5 mana per second while in combat with monsters, smite restores 15% missing mana.

5 mana a second is some of the highest mana regen in the game.

So, it does offer the mana sustain you're claiming they don't have. The only real problem with the item is, come late game, Morellonomicon is similar but also offers Wounds. The difference being that Magus is 1400g as opposed to Morellonomicon's 2300g, so its a better early game spike.

The reason AP junglers aren't popular is because there aren't many good AP junglers, not because of jungling itemization.

OperationDEEZ1May 13, 20151 votes

And Riot's just like Morgana JUNGLE!?? PERISH THE THOUGHT! NERFED!

Sire HippingtonMay 13, 20151 votes

thats not really true, if ap-junglers would get better sustain early on(like they did with the old spiritestone), champs like Cassiopeia Diana Karma Karthus Kassadin Lulu Morgana Malzahar Zyra would be alot better niche picks.(i managed to jungle well with all of them in S4)

Hard4HamstersMay 13, 20155 votes

Even if Magus is cost efficient, AP junglers are barely a thing. They still have mana problems for a large portion of the game when they are supposed to be helping out other lanes. Blue buff helps, but isn't constant. It's difficult to make an item for them though. AP junglers are tricky in that they are either Elise and Evelynn, who don't make good use out of high AP and don't scale well past the early game. Or they have pretty decent power throughout the game (some need lvl 6 to be effective) Fiddles, Diana, or Nidalee. This is in contrast to Warrior, Cinderhulk, or even Devourer users. Warrior using champions typically strive in the early game but fall off hard later in the game. Rengar and Kha'Zix are the two champions who build much more offensively than other AD junglers due to them being assassins (oh forgot Shaco), but you will see most Warriors going for tankier builds after the early game so they can remain relevant. The Warrior enchant optimizes their ability to dominate early, but is an item that reflects it's user in that it's power is ONLY for the early game. Cinderhulk is kind of the opposite. It is for those junglers who cannot put up heavy pressure early, but trade that in order to have a much stronger late game. Devourer gives a stacking mechanic that rewards heavy farming junglers so they gain power and have strong on hit effects with their AS; it caters to MasterYi Udyr Warwick and other AS/AA based champs who can become incredibly powerful lategame due to the enhance power of their autos (thought I think it's underpowered).

Magus seems to be the enchant that really doesn't have an identity. It's just a ball of stats that generally says "This item helps the power of your abilities because AP and CDR", but it doesn't give an idea of how to use the item best. It's really just the item you have to take on AP junglers because there isn't another item to choose from that will benefit you. It gives okay AP and good CDR but you still need to buy a mana/mana restore item to stay in the jungle or stay in a fight, and you cannot be a full carry when you have to keep building (60-80AP) mid tier AP items so it really limits your ability to scale into the late game, Your strongest point should be your midgame, but since you will just have your jungle item and a RoA, you won't be outputting a lot of damage as compared to champions who will have more due to increased income and only 1 "starting" item. (I will note that this is only really the typical build path of Nidalee as Fiddles and Diana will typically get by without RoA or another mana item, but they have to either keep taking Blues, or buy extra potions if they want to clear quickly and be relevant in lanes).

I don't like Magus. It needs a unique passive or different stats before I would consider it a good item.

Psi21May 13, 20151 votes

I would say it looks like the Riot balancing team doesn't know what they are doing. Like always.

Mandang0May 13, 20151 votes

I honestly don't know whether this is more or less diverse than it was before cinderhulk.

Rand0mH3r0XMay 13, 20151 votes

That just shows the lack of variety and diversity on the behalf of professional gamers. Can someone post the demographic on these gamers and compare?

Doctor DymentMay 13, 20151 votes

Well I don't play ranked. So while the rest of you are belly aching and whining about how this or that should be nerfed or buffed, and how there is no strategic diversity, I'm having extreme fun in normals.

DanLikesBaconMay 13, 20151 votes

As someone who generally mains tanky junglers this is exactly what I didn't want. The current tank junglers are so ridiculously unfair to play against at the moment it's insane. It is very had to be punished as Gragas or Sej when you are stupid tanky and can just dash out of your problems. I love tank jungler, but I want it to be fair. At the moment tank junglers are so damn good mid to late and not even that bad early it isnt even worth it going damage. Jungle diversity means we get to see tanks, famers, mage junglers, and damage junglers alike. So please Riot, properly balance all the jungle items and junglers. I want to be able to vs. a jungler and know he is good on that champion and mains him/her, and not abusive some easy freelo champ.

Leeroy JenkenzMay 13, 20151 votes

Any champ can be played with enough skill. Rising in rank just shortens the window of opportunity those off meta champions have of shining. The best feeling is when you challenge the meta consistently and beat it.

Lao Fu the TigerMay 13, 20151 votes

I don't know if this has been said or not, but to be fair, Cinderhulk is seeing a pretty substantial damage nerf this next coming patch (tomorrow). Hopefully this will help balance out some of these tanky junglers and bring back a few Warrior junglers.