Abused it Season 6/7/8 and will most likely go on to Season 9 as a main item for him.
The item was intended to be for bruisers yet Lucian specifically has been abusing this item, let alone make it so frustrating to play against because he can apply the stacks so damn fast.
Almost three years, three fucking years yet someone at Riot sits there are continues to say this is ok?
Death by Glamour12 votesJust black cleaver?
He is abusing the shite out of botrk and auto winning lane partly because of it
Paroe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIxK8Gg5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-22T22:55:16.412+0000)
Just black cleaver?
He is abusing the shite out of botrk and auto winning lane partly because of it
Thats a little misleading tbh. Lucians passive applies on hit effects, and lucian himself is an AD caster. Thats why he synergizes so well with on hit and AD caster items. On hit lucian is actually about as strong as Yi, he would be even stronger if his ultimate proc'd on hit effects~~ because the culling gets more shots the higher lucians ASP is. ~~ (Crossed out because wrong!)
the problem with black cleaver, honestly, is that its a bruiser item. We need to reduce the HP on ALL bruiser items to 200~250; with that bruisers would have to actually build HP to have a signifigantly higher HP pool.
Alzon3 votesThe thing about The Culling’s number of shots scaling with Attack Speed hasn’t been a thing for years now. It scales only with ability rank.
Moody P7 votesGut bruisers because you don't like Lucian buying an item? yikes
Paroe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIxK8Gg5,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-23T00:16:51.010+0000)
Gut bruisers because you don't like Lucian buying an item? yikes
Err... I need to edit my post to black cleaver instead of botrk since thats what i meant, but yes bruisers need a nerf on the itemization level because their kits are largely fine.
Do you know why Irelia, Jax, and Camille are so dominant? Its not because their kits are powerhouses with single item cores, not entirely at least. Its because their itemization is HP+AD, and they often end up with the same HP as a tank who built nothing but defense items while having strong CC and massive AD.
Im not saying nerf the AD component of bruiser items - just the HP component. Black cleaver, Steraks gauge, Titanic hydra.... Lower the HP on those items to 200~250, and watch bruisers become less of a problem and more of a power pick.
Ragnaveil1 votesyou realize they build health because they cant afford to stack resists without suffering major damage losses? And...the reason why Jax and Irelia are huge issues is because of Conqueror's conversion making their hybrid damage + Sheen procs impossible to counter, especially Jax.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesRight on
Moody P2 votesI think you mean watch most of the bruiser class vanish because you're taking 400-600HP out of their builds because a small handful of them are a problem
Paroe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIxK8Gg5,comment-id=00000000000100000001,timestamp=2019-01-23T01:13:49.768+0000)
I think you mean watch most of the bruiser class vanish because you're taking 400-600HP out of their builds because a small handful of them are a problem
Then they can buy defensive items like Randuins omen and spirit visage? Instead of buying HP+AD items and guardian angel? It would, at most, 'hurt' tanky bruisers who build cleaver+titanic followed by HP+resistances, but even then they still have the AD and their mobility+CC. A playstyle difference at most, but their itemization would be healthier and have a separate niche from tanks.
you realize they build health because they cant afford to stack resists without suffering major damage losses? And...the reason why Jax and Irelia are huge issues is because of Conqueror's conversion making their hybrid damage + Sheen procs impossible to counter, especially Jax.
conqueror is a reason, but its not the only reason. Single-item cores and HP+AD itemization are also giant reasons why bruisers are strong. Its like the marksman of yesteryear almost.
Moody P1 votesThen they can buy defensive items like Randuins omen and spirit visage? Instead of buying HP+AD items and guardian angel?
so you can make me lose even more AD and still be at a negative on health in my core build?
like, you realize that this hurts all non-meta bruisers 100x more than any meta bruiser, because the latter category has ridiculous means of self-defense 
you think Illaoi needs to lose 4-500 HP on her first two core items? Do you realize how she would instantly become an F tier champion if she couldn't even have her mid game durability; and then gets doubly hurt by the fact that her only survival mechanic is tied to her HP? You think Renekton should get shit on for it when he's already in the dirt?
but their itemization would be healthier and have a separate niche from tanks.
It already does. They don't have nearly as much resistances as tanks; they aren't nearly as durable as a tank going off base stats alone and they only give you the illusion of it because those meta bruisers can kill you fast. They have Sterak's specifically because they were pushed to stop buying those pure tank items because in season 4 and earlier people wouldn't fucking stop whining that bruisers were abusing tank items. They lost their resists when they were pushed into buying a bunch of HP+AD items; that's why they get a temporary shield in the middle of a fight, because otherwise they'd be at a massive power-down with a bunch of AD and absolutely 0 way to survive long enough to use it.
Actually think about what you're trying to suggest for the entire fighter roster and tell me that this is more reasonable than just directly nerfing these fighters.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesDarius and garen have to mobility to fall on in this scenario you suggest. Well except for garen's Ms bonus, but that's not much.
MLDzXnRRR2 votesErr... I need to edit my post to black cleaver instead of botrk since thats what i meant, but yes bruisers need a nerf on the itemization level because their kits are largely fine.
Do you know why Irelia, Jax, and Camille are so dominant? Its not because their kits are powerhouses with single item cores, not entirely at least. Its because their itemization is HP+AD, and they often end up with the same HP as a tank who built nothing but defense items while having strong CC and massive AD.
Im not saying nerf the AD component of bruiser items - just the HP component. Black cleaver, Steraks gauge, Titanic hydra.... Lower the HP on those items to 200~250, and watch bruisers become less of a problem and more of a power pick.
No hp = minions. Ranged can afford to not buy defense, because they sit in a safe distance. If you play all ranged vs all ranged teams the one that gets caught by poke or is with significant lower range, loses. Removing hp from melee itemisations makes them trash, plus armor and MR are garbage, because the way they scale - and even if you have them, there are plenty of ways to get true damage or % penetration, so it's useless.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesBut where does this leave champs like Darius and garen when you nerf black cleaver, steraks, etc? Cleaver is an intended core item on Darius and it barely gets picked anymore as is. I think other approaches to solve the problem would be more efficient and cause fewer unintended ripple effects
Paroe1 votesBut where does this leave champs like Darius and garen when you nerf black cleaver, steraks, etc? Cleaver is an intended core item on Darius and it barely gets picked anymore as is. I think other approaches to solve the problem would be more efficient and cause fewer unintended ripple effects
They can purchase actual tank items like everyone else?
The AD would remain unchanged, as would their passives. Just the HP would be reduced.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesLol ikr, makes no sense. I think rather a good solution for unintended champs abusing items like cleaver, frozen mallet, and steraks with little to no downside, would not only be to add scaling ho benefits (like steraks) but to impose something like a negative 15 Ms and AS, and and negative 5 AD (on top of the current ranged champ limitations) if champs don't meet a scaling max limit throughout different points in the game (similar to warmogs limiter) for essentially being too "heavy" for wimpier champs. In this case, those items could have an early limiter of something like 1600 hp at level 9, and change to approximately 1900 at level 12, and so on. Basically, champs like Lucian who buy these items should have to invest even more in ho (other examples are yi and Yas becoming insanely durable with just steraks or frozen mallet while keeping most of their damage scaling and mobility, and MF ruining black cleaver. This would allow the items to be balanced for bruisers and juggernauts, and allow other classes to the items for durability or passives, without busting the items by providing meaningful and reasonable tradeoffs.
Ragnaveil1 votesWell blade is hella strong considering its an item that synergies very well in this meta with its appropriate users. 8% of the target's current health is pretty strong in a meta where if you lose so much health fast, you are dead. It use to be 6, then they raised it to 8 to deal with burly tanks. Its been at 8% before and it was nerfed a long time ago.
Zardo1 votesThe dude has the 2nd highest banrate in league as an ADC, and he's not even second by much. He's at over a 60% banrate, and the next closest ADC, the much hated newly buffed permastealth vayne is only at a 13.25% banrate comparatively. He's been auto winning lane for patches on patches, but riot doesn't want to do anything before they update marksman items.
(got banrates from: http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics)
Sex With Annie2 votesbanrates mean nothing but how enjoyable a champ is to play against
WeeWeeBojangles4 votesIm honestly fine with it. ADC's don't have enough items in the game to keep them alive. Steraks was changed so only melee champs can build it, GA works much better for bruisers and ad assassins than it does for ADC's, Merc Scimitar had its damage nerfed real hard, Banshees and zhonyas are for ap champions. ADC's don't have shit right now. An item that gives some HP and movement speed that really only works for one champion is not an issue.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesAdcs should not be efficient with bonus ho and should rely on peel, positioning, kiting around, and their inherent range. The last thing they should be doing reliably is surviving due to building ho or restistances without sacrificing much damage. Burst is simply too high from multiple sources. Reduce those sources to reasonable levels and adcs will be fine again especially with crit changes. No need to communicate the issue.
Schenix3 votes
WeeWeeBojangles1 votesForgot about MF but graves really doesn't count because he isn't really an adc.
Alzon4 votesRight, he’s a mobile DPS burst CC tank marksman assassin.
Ragnaveil1 votesThe fact one close up shot full procs black cleaver is stupid.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesDoes it for real?? And to think people complain about slow moving Darius LMAO xD never knew graves could do that though ....
Ragnaveil1 votesHe can.
MLDzXnRRR2 votesForgot about MF but graves really doesn't count because he isn't really an adc.
ADC = attack damage carry. What is graves - ap? [zombie-brand-facepalm] You don't have to be going bottom lane to be an adc (or even ranged - melee dps are also adc)
WeeWeeBojangles1 votesSo by your definition of adc literally any champion that builds ad is an adc? Whats your cut off for an adc and whats not an adc among ad champions?
Lil Homie busta3 votesMake Black Cleaver melee only and put Urgot as a exception. Change Lucian's passive so its doesn't proc on-hit effects.
Wild Geese3 votesI like item diversity, for every item an ADC build that they don't normally build this game is better for it.
Unless you want every ADC blasting autos with 100% Crit chance?...
Wild Geese2 votesHopefully forever.
Sex With Annie2 voteslucian is sitting on a 50% wr, move on to real issues rather than why one of the only viable adcs can deal damage.
Compare 50% lucian having a bit more health and armor pen to 53% wr with 
having 0 downtime on his counterstrike and leap
Daddy Ants1 votes[{quoted}](name=Jhin Wíck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vIxK8Gg5,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-01-23T05:57:57.986+0000)
lucian is sitting on a 50% wr, move on to real issues rather than why one of the only viable adcs can deal damage. Compare 50% lucian having a bit more health and armor pen to 53% wr
Vayne's sitting on a 50% win rate with LESS play rate and a 3rd of his ban rate but people are still complaining.
JackMcSnipeyz2 votesWe want diversity and dynamic builds! What? Lucian building a none adc item? Nerf him!
saltran1 votesThe item was intended to be for bruisers yet Lucian specifically has been abusing this item, let alone make it so frustrating to play against because he can apply the stacks so damn fast.
Okay as a delegate of MF mains on the Boards I want to claim that we were also part of the problem, it wasn't only Lucian.
PaffWasTaken1 votesAre you saying that an item who should've been "melee only" since its rework shouldn't be abusable by our ADC overlord?!?!?? Blasphemy! /s
BLIGHTBRINGER1 votesThe item was intended to be for bruisers
And it's now being used by almost every Assassin, and by almost no bruiser because they take Conqueror and Trinity Force instead.
NodirjonSattarov1 votesHe's been doing this for 3 years, since season 6.
FioraWillCarry1 votesI thought Lucian was a bruiser?
Daddy Ants1 votesI thought Lucian was a bruiser?
Lucian is a bruiser, marksman, assassin.
SpaghettiVase1 votesOh yes abuse abuse! Item abuse! Please rito they are poaching my bruiser items! It's totally black cleaver that is pushing him over the edge and not the fact that his counters are doodoo, his passive with PTA is way too strong, his early game CDs/Mana costs are too low, or his early game poke when combined with the poke support meta is completely unbearable. Please make Black Cleaver melee only since he's the only ranged who uses it. What do you mean urgot, graves, miss fortune, jayce, and gnar all use it? Oh well screw them they are all OP too
kingDeDeDarius1 votesGraves maybe abuses it, MF definitely does with ult, and yes Lucian is a problem. Melee only? No, but they should nerf it along with select other bruiser items for champs that don't meet certain total hp limits throughout the game
Daddy Ants1 votesGraves maybe abuses it, MF definitely does with ult, and yes Lucian is a problem. Melee only? No, but they should nerf it along with select other bruiser items for champs that don't meet certain total hp limits throughout the game
Give black cleaver reduced effects for ranged champions.
It's 4% per stack right?
Make it 3 - 3.5% per stack for ranged.
SpaghettiVase1 votesGraves maybe abuses it, MF definitely does with ult, and yes Lucian is a problem. Melee only? No, but they should nerf it along with select other bruiser items for champs that don't meet certain total hp limits throughout the game
Why the hell is it abuse when it’s clearly designed for repeatable physical damage to shred tanks. graves and mf don’t use or barely use crit. Lucian has been using BC pretty much since his existence and people only have a problem with it when he’s strong. Hmmm is it because the item is broken or because lucian always comes into meta when crit marksmen fall short?
Daddy Ants1 votesBack to banning Lucian until I see reasonable nerfs.
