So any Rioter gonna comment on damage creep and how snowbally the game is?

BALDG1VEN BOOMER·Feb 7, 2017·152 votes·6,367 views

What the title says.

Edit: Got some PBE Updates.

121 Comments

NodirjonSattarovFeb 7, 201730 votes

damage creep began in s6 pre season with ~~marksmen~~ mastery changes. any updates after that only enhanced those changes pushing the game to a faster/more snowball oriented game. less strategy, more damage/chaos

edit: thx, o oxros piratis

AMYS GRAVEFeb 7, 20175 votes

Started with juggernaut changes to be honest.

WoonStruckFeb 7, 201713 votes

Nah, that was just Riot's new routine of stuffing everything they can into a kit, even if its not needed.

More text = better champion, right? :^)

AMYS GRAVEFeb 7, 20171 votes

Well a lot of them did get more damage or conditionally got their damage turned into true damage.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 7, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Well a lot of them did get more damage or conditionally got their damage turned into true damage.

Theres a difference between adding conditional damage and just creeping dmg up.

Darius actually lost a lot of up front damage in the juggy update in favor of better longer term damage if he can extend fights.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 7, 20173 votes

Very true but smaller true damage vs higher physical or magic damage in exchange for being able to ignore resistances functionally raises damage done. I don't think that the juggernaut update was the biggest offender by any means given how the past two years have shaken out but i think it did contribute and started it in some ways. Another example is the base damage scaling in steraks, the added damage to sunfire cape, and the damage added to an otherwise full tank item in DMP.

Also now i'm not sure how infernal works if it damage amps base damage or bonus damage or both and if the damage obtained by it is considered base or bonus. If it amps base damage as more base damage then it combined with steraks for an otherwise full tank build champ could be pretty ridiculous.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 7, 20178 votes

Jhin passive VS Tristana passive. I'm pretty sure Tristana's passive is like 1 sentence.

5000000000000000Feb 7, 20173 votes

We can fit more text into it

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 8, 20176 votes

Yeah man just do it like Mojo jojo.

The range of Tristana's basic attacks. The attacks that are, how people say basic attacks, in which are moreso just attacks brought on by the right clicking. Explosive Charge and Buster Shot abilities which are in the kit that belongs to the champion are increased by 0 - 119 (based on level), not rank up, but of the level in time that is done by the progression of EXP Gain over the period of the game. In the end this comes to a total of 550 - 669 (based on level) range that allows the player to use their abilites that belong to the champion Tristana in the game of League of Legends, and attacks that are of the basic variety to be utilized at a much higher range.

BLACK REALM GODFeb 8, 20172 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lYZcIC6bqU

AMYS GRAVEFeb 7, 201713 votes

I mean, jhin has 4 passives.

Pale PirateFeb 7, 20172 votes

FTFY

damage creep began in s6 pre season with mastery changes. any updates after that only enhanced those changes pushing the game to a faster/more snowball oriented game. less strategy, more damage/chaos

NodirjonSattarovFeb 7, 20171 votes

ftfy? what does that mean

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 7, 20177 votes

FixedItForYou

5000000000000000Feb 7, 201710 votes

I thought it was Fixed That For You

ElikainFeb 7, 201716 votes

Fight Till Figs Yelp

I am 100% sure that's what it means.

Samflash3Feb 8, 20177 votes

I thought it was, "F that Freelo Yasuo?"

AMYS GRAVEFeb 8, 20172 votes

I thought it was "fight that fluffy yordle"

EndlessSorcererFeb 7, 201717 votes

Personally, I believe that the current mastery system is one of the main offenders.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 7, 20175 votes

whoops thats what i meant to say! someone corrected it for me. i 100% agree its mastery changes that have contributed to the power creep. i remember when Thunderlords was used on nearly every champion. after it was nerfed, people picked up warlords and abused the hell out of it. i play a lot of kog'maw and now his mains resort to using Thunderlords Surge since he can't use Fervor (after on-hit was changed to bonus AD) and benefits little from Warlords in the early game. sad to see the game go from a sustained strategy game to a "pick whatever champion that best abuses masteries and lethality" game.

Sire HippingtonFeb 7, 20174 votes

Actually, it started with preseason S3 and league of cleavers, mostly by one dreadfull change: %pen getting calculate befor flatpen, which ment you can stack flatpen with % and not have and gaihn full benefit from both. In the first two season, if you went for flatpen, getting %pen wasn't as great, so you had basically to decide wether you want to delete squishys or shred through tanks. Evewr since S3, the overall damage slowly increased, especially vs tanks with more and more %health damage and truedamage finding the way into the game while tank items became less and less slot efficient(though more gold efficient causeing high jmidgame spikes)

Damagecreep acceörated a bit throught S5, especially the second half, and reached it's peak in pre season 6. And yes, the damagecreep in S6 was a larrge leap that was probably more impactfull then the stacked up damagecreep of all preeious seasons. And sadly, about nothing changed since S6 in terms of damagecreep...

IcyPepperFeb 7, 201717 votes

If they wanted to increase the pace of the game, why didn't they just increase passive and some active gold gains so mid/late-game comes faster?

AMYS GRAVEFeb 7, 201713 votes

They did. They added a bunch of other stuff too but passive gold gains were increased in preseason 6.

IcyPepperFeb 7, 20178 votes

I'm talking beyond that tho. Like, even more, and increase gold gains like minions and whatever.

Damage creep does not seem the way to go to end their games shorter.

inplaneFeb 7, 201711 votes

{quoted}

I'm talking beyond that tho. Like, even more, and increase gold gains like minions and whatever.

Damage creep does not seem the way to go to end their games shorter.

Their objective of having shorter games goes against the concept of a strategic MOBA. Games are supposed to be long so every player can have some opportunity to build up and reach an end game before the fun part begins. That's the reason why Towers exist. So it can guard players while they are weak to reach that end game. Heavily punishing players does not fix anything but make the game dull. Even TDM doesn't punish players as heavily as League does.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 7, 20172 votes

At least League still hasn't gotten hasn't punishing as Dota is. We got that much I guess.

NickssaaFeb 7, 20177 votes

Punishing you say? Last time I checked, comebacks were possible in Dota

SpongebobIsLifeFeb 8, 20174 votes

mmmmm, i disagree with that one lol.

AnidanFeb 8, 20173 votes

I see them fairly often, and I've been on both the comeback and receiving ends. DotA2 is much better about how its mechanics can allow for comebacks despite its punishing play -- in fact, its punishing play allows for even more comeback potential if you can manage to win a big teamfight. You shut down their Godlike+ carry? Have fun with over 1000 gold while they lost a good chunk of their own money, even more if they had to buyback to defend or continue an attack. This is to say nothing of the intense relief and map openings killing a fed carry gives you to farm more safely, which increases your foothold even further. Then there's ratting strategies which allow a losing team to win by way of split-pushing while your team keeps theirs occupied and distracted.

If you're not seeing comebacks in DotA2 then your team comp simply can't pull one against theirs (in which case, that's on you for your team comp choices), or you just weren't good enough, and no amount of the game coddling you would change that anyway.

RainbowIceeFeb 8, 20172 votes

What if they choose to bully you with their lead. Destroy their own tower and minions to negate your farm and if you try to stop them they rekt you and you lose gold. Seems to me the game is more set up towards snowballing a lot more than league.

AnidanFeb 8, 20172 votes

You can snowball harder, but as a result of those mechanics you can also comeback much easier. Yes, if a team gets ahead it can seem like insurmountable obstacle, but once you finally conquer it you swing the experience and gold vastly in your favor as a result. Not only that, the more specific, less generalist champion kits means that countering someone when they're ahead generally means just exploiting their weaknesses when you can will keep you in the game, even with a gold/exp deficit.

Denies are a part of the game, but they are nowhere near the issue you seem to think they are, and if you concentrate so much on denies that you're able to keep someone from farming then you are neglecting your own farming potential. Slowing down their farm by spamming creep/tower denies is less valuable than you think it is. I'd very much rather my Phantom Assassin had 300 CS than 150 CS and 150 denies. If my supports have a high deny count I'll wonder why they were spending that much time in lane instead of roaming and establishing map control. If my mid laner has a high deny count, I'll wonder why he wasn't roaming for ganks or farming the jungle to maximize his farm, and I'd rather my hard carry was maximizing his farm if he isn't needed or nearby for any particular fights.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 7, 20174 votes

Their objective of having shorter games goes against the concept of a strategic MOBA.

Couldn't agree more.

Sire HippingtonFeb 7, 20172 votes

They also increased goldcosts across the board, so the gold gain changes hardly accelerated anything.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 7, 20172 votes

They did up the costs of many items but not all, which made it a large rebalancing which is hard to easily assess.

NiaphimFeb 7, 20173 votes

It would still shorten games in unhealthy manner though. The problem is some of the game time is taken by irreducible actions like recalling/returning to lane, rotations etc. And in high elo people already knew how to pressure and end games in under 25 minutes, with a correct execution and outplays. If you try to decrease game time, you would (and Riot did) destroy either mid or late game as a concept, as it becomes so short that it is nonexistent. The only part that definitely became shorter is fights: everything is dying so quickly that can't even do a second rotation of abilities.

IcyPepperFeb 7, 20174 votes

Then what should we do? Shooting down other people's ideas and criticizing the current state of affairs is only going to do so much, so please contribute.

Should we balance pro/casual play differently? Should we have a shorter map or increase base MS around the board? Should hyperscaling defensive champions with hardly any damage become a thing?

Obviously damage creep isn't working, and increasing gold income apparently won't work because it's not healthy. But if all everyone does is go "no that can't work" and never tries to come up anything, no progress is made.

NiaphimFeb 7, 20172 votes

Thank you, you are right.

To make it clear, my point is that the whole decision to shorten the games is a mistake. Like some Rioter said: the more champions you add, the more extreme minima and maxima for damage/utility/mobility would go, and if two champions are almost equally good, you would just pick the better one. If you shrink the average game, you make balancing a nightmare, since you don't have a freedom to make one champion excel at 5 items at 40 minutes and another one at 6 items at 50 minutes.

So I think, the solution to making the game healthy(ier) is just to tone down overall damage to season 5 pre-juggernaut update levels so that we have realistic 50 minute games ceiling once again. Whether to buff turrets or not is another question, but right now people are just scared to do anything since they are disintegrated after a minor mistake. I also believe that in this case average game length will not increase much for pro (LCS) games.

Another lever to change the average length of LCS games is separating the champion pool for solo queue and pro plays slightly (like Ryze who is broken in coordinated play but has 45% winrate in soloQ).

xelakerFeb 8, 20173 votes

{quoted}

If they wanted to increase the pace of the game, why didn't they just increase passive and some active gold gains so mid/late-game comes faster?

that doesnt make lcs plays

dominusxFeb 7, 201711 votes

buffing lethality was my answer to how they feel. but oh well means i can spamm more Graves

BALDG1VEN BOOMERFeb 7, 20174 votes

Rito pls he just comes out of jungle and right clicks me.

dominusxFeb 7, 20171 votes

nah i rightclick you once Q E auto you and you die dont mix up the combo gotta put that animation cancel in for the swag.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERFeb 7, 20172 votes

Too much swag

AngelFrost00Feb 7, 20178 votes

Then he can smoke his ... nevermind.

dominusxFeb 7, 20176 votes

i dont need no cigars i'm healthy now and i can dash around more. -Graves 2k16/2k17

VenomarFeb 7, 201711 votes

Season 6 boards:

OMG damage bloat is unreal!

Season 7 preseason:

We made some changes to the mastery tree system. Here's 8% more free multiplicative damage in the mastery trees and two on hit free damage bonuses!

Fondling GemsFeb 8, 20178 votes

Hey did you know that Tanks can't tank in LoL and armour pen is too high? To fix this we gave last whisper 45% bonus armour pen instead of 30%.

Supreme Senpai69Feb 8, 20171 votes

I see you everywhere and almost every post is something that I came to post as well. Until I see you've said it and stay silent.

You are my spirit animal \o.o/

Fondling GemsFeb 8, 20172 votes

Sorry Riven Senpai, I will try to slow down my post reaction time for you ;P

JunkοFeb 8, 20172 votes

Did you hear that? That's the sound of Yasuo mains thinking about the thought of 95% bonus armor pen so early in the game with just 1k gold after finishing 100% crit.

Gallows madnessFeb 7, 20178 votes

Damage creep for raptors? awful... I HATE season 7 jungle. If anything, I can tell you that this jungle is prob the worse it's ever been (wait it's been worse) but it can use ~~some touches~~ a lot of touches to get back in place.

The game is very hard on snowball and it does need to be addressed because late game champions are hardly viable for my matches anymore.

I've been playing a lot of renekton and tryndamere lately especially renekton and have been destroying games in the mid game... When I can solo 1v3-4 and come out with a triple to quadra kill.. there is a problem.

So I agree there needs to be some changes even if renekton is scary strong in the mid game.

I think turrets need some changes to make the game less snow ball