You said you didn't want the game to be over in champion select

ValyrianBlade··3 votes·537 views

Title. You said you didn't want the game to be over in champion select. That you wanted to add items and the like to counteract specific team comps or to add to a team comp lacking something.

E.g. You added shields to the t2 turrets to prevent poke comps from being overbearing. Or the damage reduction and slow on t3 turret lasers to prevent split pushers steamrolling against a team with no duelist.

So I ask, when are we going to be able to buy an item with a targeted hard cc active? When your team lacks hard cc, or even only has it on skillshots, and the enemy team's carries are really mobile, you're pretty much gg unless you win hard early.

So I ask, when are we going to be able to buy an item with a dash/blink active? Having a team lacking mobility outside of ms increases against a team with a multitude of slows is pretty much gg unless you win hard early.

What reason is there to pick champions without targeted cc and blinks/dashes when anything they offer in return can be built on champions with such abilities, but these things can't be built. You can build botrk, ghostblade, talisman, etc... to get the ms to catch up to an udyr or sivir, but they can't build a dash to follow a kha'zix or graves or rek'sai over a wall.

So I ask the readers, what other abilities do certain team comps have that others don't which can result in a really lopsided game? Are there any abilities that should be added as item actives in some way?

13 Comments

Raptamei3 votes

{quoted}

So I ask, when are we going to be able to buy an item with a targeted hard cc active? So I ask, when are we going to be able to buy an item with a dash/blink active?

That would be strategy, and we don't have strategy anymore because you can't dodge strategy for big plays.

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Tsugaga2 votes

You're misunderstanding that quote, champ select is still very important, and your team still should pick a good and balanced team. You want a cc item because your team didn't pick cc? You want an ap nuke item because your team didn't pick a mage? You want an item that deploys a temporary Rammus because your team has no tank? This goes on and on. You can pick 5 supports, or 5 marksmans, or 5 tanks, or 5 mages, or 5 junglers, that doesn't mean that the game should be balanced around any comp having a 50% win chance. Champ select is about strategy and picking a balanced team. Don't ask for a cc item when your team picks a low cc comp, such as Vlad top + Kat mid + Soraka bot.

A hard cc item would also create stale gameplay because it would likely be core on any support, and would make cc supports even stronger.

The only item that I think this idea would work for is another jungle item which allows smite to stun an enemy. This keeps it jungler only, and actually has a trade off compared to if a support would have it.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

My point is moreso that I can't control what my team picks. So in solo queue I really get no help if I first pick adc for example and my team refuses to pick any cc to peel for me.

The other point being that people complain about these things (cc and dashes) being OP. If they're not OP as people argue, then there definitely is a price point on an item that it could be added at a certain cooldown. If you can't add it on an item active, then it must be OP by definition. So there's sort of a paradox I'm creating here.

The Bearded Bard2 votes

Because that would be stupid.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

It's stupid that a champion with hard targetted CC can also build an item like ghostblade to chase down a champion with MS abilities, but the champion with MS abilities can't build a CC item to lock someone down?

It's stupid that a champion with dashes can build pure damage items to trade equally with a champion who doesn't have dashes, but a champion without dashes can't build one to escape at the expense of some damage in their build?

What would be the purpose of picking a champion with any other kit? What's the purpose of a champion that has a kit built for dealing sustained damage with no reliable peel/escape when any other ranged champion with peel/escape can build up to near identical damage levels due to itemization options they have? Why pick a champion with an MS boost over one with a dash, when the one with a dash can build a Ghostblade/BotRK for chasing but the one with the MS boost can never dash through a wall?

FHMarshy1 votes

So I ask, why don't you pick champions with built in dash/harc CCs?

Dash/blink/displacement : Aatrox , Azir , Braum , Fizz , Fiora , Ezreal , Elise , Corki , Gnar , Gragas , Graves , Irelia , JarvanIV , Jax , LeeSin , Leblanc , Khazix , Katarina , Kassadin , Lissandra , Lucian , Maokai , Rengar , Renekton , RekSai , Nidalee , Riven , Shaco , Shen , Talon , Vi and those that has dash from Ults Akali , Ahri , Diana .

Hard CC that is not a skill shot : Annie , Braum (Passive), Jax , Leona , Maokai , Malzahar , Lissandra , Nautilus , Pantheon , Skarner , Taric , Udyr ,

So i ask, Just why would you ask for items when there are so many champions with built in system of what you want already?

ValyrianBlade1 votes

The point I'm making is that they should go all or nothing.

They're invalidating certain styles of play by putting in new counter-mechanics to them or by creating items that give the same style of play to any champion. Simultaneously though, perhaps the strongest styles of play (targeted hard cc, and dashes/blinks) have no item equivalent and no real way to counter once in game.

The further point being, in solo queue you can't dictate what your teammates are going to pick. Oh, I'm first pick and I go Jinx ADC. That doesn't stop my top/jungle/mid/support all refusing to take a tank or anything with cc to peel for me. Sure, I can dodge, but then I'm penalized for dodging even though as first pick I did nothing wrong and it was my teammates failure to pick a reasonable team comp.

Or, the alternative point being, these types of abilities on champions are frequently complained about and the people who play those champions say they are balanced and the abilities aren't OP. If the abilities aren't OP, why aren't they on items? If you argue they're OP without even hearing a gold price attached to the ability, then you can't possibly argue it's not OP as an ability.

FHMarshy1 votes

To be able to itemize something that makes specific character unique, to me, sounds ridiculous.

To be honest, I think blitz grab is rather annoying too, Why don't we get an item so we can grab someone?

I think Morg ult is really annoying too, why don't we get an item that binds everyone unless they get out of my range?

I understand your point on the champion select part, and there really isn't anything you can do in yolo Q about it. I didn't check LoLking you, but im guess high silver to low gold judging by your concerns in game.

Typically when you rise higher in elo (high gold low plat) people will start looking at Team comp more.

Below that, i would say it really really comes down to the skill difference. When i was on my smurf, which is in silver, I was a brand with a teemo top that went pure AP, a vayne jungle for who knows what reason, an annie support that build straight AP without any wards or bulk, and a jinx adc:

I had no peel, I had no sheilds, I had no help from any of them, but because I make the better decisions, i ended up with a penta and a win

Who you pick really doesn't matter as long as you are good with them up until mid gold, which is when team comp comes into the picture with a great impact.

BluePolarizer1 votes

high gold/low plat is the worst elo ever. Filled with trash trolls and ragers.

The point is that the itemization options in this game are very limited compared to the much older game of DOTA, which gives you alot of tools that you can buy, at the cost of a slot and damage/tankiness, to counter specific problem champs. An item that makes you immune to physical spells, but not autos, for 1.5 seconds, and has bad stats otherwise, would be a great item to stop the Zed/Pantheon QQ. An item that makes you dodge ranged autos for 1.5 seconds, for instance, would actually give ppl a reason to play a hyperscaling bruiser/assassin (Jax, Yasuo) as the ADC instead of putting them in a solo lane where their laning phase is a risk, and instead get to play 4 other lane bullies. Team comp strategies, rather than just picking 4 OP champs.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I can respect this.

Tbh, I wrote this thread after reading someone complain about targeted cc and dashes and seeing all the respondents tell him just to play those champions or that his champions had meaningful tradeoffs for them. You can trade off items just as well as abilities so I thought of this being an answer.

And you're entirely right, I'm writing this after going 8-2 in my first ranked placements to get silver 1, then losing 6 straight (and being demoted) when people make incomprehensible picks and decisions.

Like picking cass support against a sona. Not that cass support should ever be a good idea, but at least she could supply some poke in certain circumstances, too bad I have no desire to play a poke Lane against a sona.

I'm looking to switch, I play jg/adc/mid and often give up mid because someone always wants it, but after these games of seeing the solo lanes wreck things and not being able to rely on teammates, I'm really thinking I'll be better off just taking mid whenever I can.

doublelift fg1 votes

and did you really believe them? if you don't have cc against kalista/leblanc you lost, if you don't have ranged champ against darius you lost, if you don't have mobility against vayne you lost.

after playing a lot of dota 2, i realised that tons of things that riot stated are completly false. -yes there is hard counter in league of legends -no there isn't counterplay. you can build ghost scepter/shadow blade/eul scepter against juggernaut ulti, you can only build zhonya against fiora. You can build orchyde or w/e against anti mage. in league you can't prevent kassadin from blinking.

Qazgir1 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vHAwZEEF,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-02-24T17:57:42.417+0000)

You can build orchyde or w/e against anti mage. in league you can't prevent kassadin from blinking.

Don't forget Sheep stick and Abysal

Pryotra1 votes

What reason is there to pick champions without targeted cc and blinks/dashes when anything they offer in return can be built on champions with such abilities, but these things can't be built. You can build botrk, ghostblade, talisman, etc... to get the ms to catch up to an udyr or sivir, but they can't build a dash to follow a kha'zix or graves or rek'sai over a wall.

Kog'maw STILL does the most damage late game of any adc. Hands down, no contest. I'm talking being capable of 3 shotting a full health mundo with ult up levels of damage. His weakness is, obviously, that he pops super easy, and needs protection.

Heimer STILL is the best seigeing champion in the game, hands down. When heimer ganks a lane, he isn't going for kills, he is interested in taking your tower, and so HELP you if you get in his way. The closest champion to him would be Azir, and even Azir has issues holding down an area for extended periods of time if he can't summon a tower for whatever reason. Note that 90% of his damage is skillshots.

Xerath STILL has some of the longest range in the game, and as a result has a place where few other mages have. Note that he is ALL skillshots.

I could go on, but the point is that immobile champs still have a place in this game. Some of them are just getting invalidated due to the excessive amounts of mobility being introduced, like Ashe getting her Perma-Slow invalidated due to all the dashes. It's not the champions themselves getting weaker, it's that league is valuing their strengths less and less.

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