What if no tank items did damage and no damaging abilities scaled with max health

Ok sure but why·Mar 5, 2017·4 votes·898 views

then tanks would merely be cc-dealing bullet-sponges, the way the good lord intended

30 Comments

SasogwaMar 5, 20175 votes

Yea, exactly. They'd have to rely on base damages and build offensive items to deal damage. And they'd be balanced. Now, the other problem is that all the fucking classes have been going through a ridiculous powercreep : juggernaughts, mages, assassins, ADC's etc. and since Riot wants muh mobility muh oneshot very plays in their game, we can't have that balanced aspect of things anymore. Sorry. And I doubt they're willing to do what we need, aka the great purge of mobility, cc and damage. And bring back target-agnostic CC aka ranged point&click CC so that carries actually have to build a defensive item like banshees or GA. And remove fucking item 3139 .

TLDR We want season 2 back

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

problem is that all the fucking classes have been going through a ridiculous powercreep : juggernaughts....

juggernauts were all around shit before their update. for years. pls dont tell me their buffs werent deserved.

juggs didnt powercreep. they were just buffed to get on par with everybody else.

and before you bring up skarner and morde at their rework, they were nerfed back into place in a matter of 2 days and 4 weeks. the entire timespan between that and up until preseason 6 and the marksmen reworks everything was fine and dandy.

its not just the large scale champion reworks that caused game pacing to go to shit. but also all the global changes they did. especially the still ridiculous early death timers and nerfed turrets massively increased snowballing.

SasogwaMar 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vAFI9Kfa,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-03-06T02:43:04.116+0000)

problem is that all the fucking classes have been going through a ridiculous powercreep : juggernaughts....

juggernauts were all around shit before their update. for years. pls dont tell me their buffs werent deserved.

juggs didnt powercreep. they were just buffed to get on par with everybody else.

and before you bring up skarner and morde at their rework, they were nerfed back into place in a matter of 2 days and 4 weeks. the entire timespan between that and up until preseason 6 and the marksmen reworks everything was fine and dandy.

its not just the large scale champion reworks that caused game pacing to go to shit. but also all the global changes they did. especially the still ridiculous early death timers and nerfed turrets massively increased snowballing.

That's still a powercreep. And a necessary one, else these picks were completely irrelevant. Mostly, the powercreeps are in terms of damage, mobility or CC. For the juggernaughts, it was damage. I'm not here to say X or X is broken. I'm here to say EVERYONE is. Because Riot releases ridiculous gamebreaking kits/reworks, to make it work they have to do changes to everyone else. It's a bit of here and there that leads to the powercreep. Masteries (goddamn keystones breaking the game), ratios, %health and true damage in abundance, carry items being stronger, tank items being weaker but of little price, because for some goddamn reason tanks/bruisers/juggs HAVE to be midgame picks that fall off to the damage carries overlords. It's not complicated to make tanky items more expensive and slightly stronger (less obnoxious midgame especially on the mobile CC lords that have been dominating and needed billion nerfs Poppy Ekko , less pathetic lategame). But eh, as long as "lulul all your armor buys are troll dude" aka item 3035 exists, can't think of a non-broken tank item that lets you actually survive a bit against ADC's. Ridiculous to the point we'd absolutely need passives such as, oh, crit reduction, attack speed reduction because armor itself is garbage as long as counterbuilt. It's like good against lethality aaaaand that's it. Full AD comps aren't even outscaled anymore. "Just take item 3035 , ignore half their armor buys for 1300g" Riot, 2017

In their defense, Riot is trying to please everyone. They see things but they don't realize the core source of the problem. They see juggernaughts are useless, because tanks are just surviving them, outscaling them even in a 1v1. They release new Black Cleaver, Sterak's, Titanic, change jugg kits. Now that's a good change cause juggs shouldn't be outscaled 1v1 by tanks. Yet wasn't the big HP change lvl 1 a huge mistake? Lanebullies weren't that much lanebullies anymore because they couldn't really burst down earlygame. Ranged champions weren't risky anymore toplane because they actually had sufficient health and lanebullies became the guys with range. It made it harder to define what lanebullying is and why it falls off and caused a billion problems. The guys that were lanebullies weren't supposed to be lanebullies and didn't fall off. Also with some ridic kits Riot introduced us to the great concept of lanebully hypercarries (in the great periods of Cassiopeia Yasuo Fiora ).

I can't say Riot isn't trying. I can't say it's easy, I'm not sure I'd do better myself. I do respect them a lot for the work they're doing. But in general, by trying to solve problems they create more on another end. Then they try to balance it around by buffing back champions. Tanks are actually getting destroyed? (lategame but it doesn't seem they saw it) Let's add defensive ratios, bonus resistances (Poppy in %, Nasus in flat). Tanks are broken? (midgame before item 3035 , except Poppy) Nerf tank items. Reduce price. Woot? but the problem is midgame powerspike, not late... Cheaper items will keep the midgame problem. And the overdependency on (god i hate this item and its upgrades). One thing I don't like is how overzealous they are at nerfing champions that weren't in the meta and became meta ( Warwick Sejuani ) and so long to get rid of problematic for years metapicks ( Nidalee Gragas LeeSin Shen ). Favoritism? A big problem too is that they're fine with gamebreaking kits being released and those kits break the game for at least a year or two before being gutted because it SIMPLY CANT WORK to give a champion too much versatility. Too much utility. Too much damage. Come on, they can't think that a champion that can do everything another champion does and more isn't a problem. They can't be balanced before being nerfed to oblivion. Why does it take so long to come to that conclusion for every one of those champs individually? Gnar Ekko , Poppy rework, Yasuo Azir Kalista

Same can be said for too versatile items actually ( item 3153 item 3116 reworks)

As for the turrets, I think I know why they did this change. Laneswaps were problematic and unhealthy. Toplaners having 3 cs at 15 min lul. How do we change that? They removed fortification from tower bot. This tower is now way less tanky than others. It forces the duolane to go botlane, because they take tower faster and have a better tempo swing than the other duolane if those are going top. Also, to ensure that, they gave FB tower. It did work. We don't see laneswaps anymore. But yeah.. game's more snowbally now. Also way too dependent on botlane. Rift herald was a good step, but it wasn't quite enough.

Anyway right now I'm just waiting for Riot to realize that Caitlyn having 2s root on a spammable generous hitbox nearly instant trap, while being a lanebully hypercarry isn't fine. That Jhin despite being a reallly fun and engaging design is not fine balance-wise at all. That maybe Talon oneshooting level 2 isn't due to lethality. And many other things.

And that certainlyT's kits and reworks are borderline unbalancable. We're not in an anime, overloading IS a problem.

Sorry for the rant.

BluePolarizerMar 5, 20175 votes

Then tanks won't be able to lane, so no one will play them, so you'll have the pleasure of playing against the very balanced and fun to play against Jayce Quinn Zed Leblanc Pantheon Darius Annie Tryndamere Heimerdinger Illaoi every game. Enjoy.

WoonStruckMar 5, 20172 votes

Pretty much everyone wants Jayce, Quinn, Panth, Darius, Illaoi, and Heimer changed except for those that play said champions.

Tanks used to be able to lane just fine.

They had healing/shielding, CC, and good early burst that fell off pretty hard without damage items. They did just fine.

LordGeovanniMar 5, 20171 votes

if by used to you mean before season 4 before season 4 tanks had lower average spell cooldowns higher average spell base damages and ap scaleing and better defensive items and carry classes also have longer spell cooldowns on average for both mages and adcs (see lissandra as the only mage if not carry not touched from that era) and crit chance was lower over all so you didnt get 100% crit in 4 items you barely reached 45% crit with 3 items so over all damage was lower.

AptestMar 5, 20171 votes

and since the jungle had no money in it "farming junglers" and "carry junglers" couldn't compete with tanks in the jungle despite the tanks having shit clear.

which allowed the no-damage-when-built-tank maokai to be a jungler.

you want tanks to not have damage? fine. remove the $$$ from the jungle so they can have a place to be in, since they can't lane anymore. With the same blow we can get rid of the kahzix/rengar jungle spam while we're at it (and yi also, a great blessing for low elo).

Ok sure but whyMar 5, 20171 votes

but that's the problem

Illaoi can go full tank and still slaughter everyone

Big LincolnMar 5, 20174 votes

no she can't

Variks the LoyalMar 5, 20173 votes

Sounds like a world where tanks can't lane because they'd be bullied out by Fighters and Skirmishers, and can't jungle because they wouldn't kill the monsters fast enough.

Chamuel85Mar 5, 20174 votes

Lol yes, but no one thinks or cares about tanks having a laning phase I think. Then don't realize that if you don't have any laning phase, you have no farm. no farm no items. no items. no tank. People just want to complain about their damage.

Chibi BronzlifeMar 5, 20173 votes

such is the nature of people who forget to look at the big picture.

WoonStruckMar 5, 20171 votes

It worked before when most tanks had healing/shielding and decent early burst to trade advantageously.

Ok sure but whyMar 5, 20171 votes

then maybe tanks would have to buy some damn damage items to balance it out

Variks the LoyalMar 5, 20175 votes

Then they wouldn't be tanks.

Ok sure but whyMar 5, 20171 votes

exactly, then they'd choose between tank and damage, since both is unfair, unfun and uncanny

have you ever heard of the "don't go full crit garen, full tank is better" line? when crit is designed to literally more than double your damage, you shouldn't get out-damaged by some idiot with six sunfire capes

that shit ain't fair

LordGeovanniMar 5, 20172 votes

tanks dont have alot of damage you want a squishy with no defense to tank a tank with little damage but still enough to beat a no defense squishy if they can get to them which is how things are supposed to work. not gonna talk about how adcs and mages stopped building defensive items in season for because lcs did it cried that they kept dieing then riot rebalanced the whole game so that they didnt die quickly and didnt build any defenses. you dont want to build defenses but complain about rengar crit one shotting you.

Variks the LoyalMar 5, 20172 votes

You don't seem to understand.

If tanks have no damage, they will not be played outside of the Support role. Period.

If they have no trading power in lane, they will be bullied out by other classes. If they have no damage, they won't be able to clear the jungle and will be forced out for other classes.

This is irrelevant of the items they build. If a tanks has no trading power in the first portion of laning phase, where everyone just has a starting item and pots, they won't be usable at all.

RalanrMar 5, 20171 votes

Ok, I'll buy a longsword for my first jungle clear as Sion. Oh wait, I need to buy my jungle item. Can't do that.

Yaśuo MainMar 6, 20171 votes

ORRRR I can get a leash, and get Q first.

And not buy a useless longsword

RalanrMar 6, 20171 votes

Because one camp automatically equals clearing the jungle. I didn't mean it for the goddamn first camp.

LordGeovanniMar 5, 20171 votes

that already happens and fighters aren't played either. No traditional fighters are in meta only fighters that can play as tanks or fighters that play juggernaut builds with item 3748 and item 3071 / item 3078 as their only offensive items.

MrHaZeYoMar 5, 20172 votes

Sunfire Cape has been around for awhile now. What other "Tank" item gives them damage?

If Tanks have no damage then they will just be standing infront of their teams being ignored. They'd almost be useless. Them having some damage allows for them to not be overlooked.

WoonStruckMar 5, 20171 votes

I'd be glad to go back to those days.

Back when enemy %HP damage was the only scaling a tank had, and they couldn't make it any stronger building tank.

LordGeovanniMar 5, 20171 votes

besides the fact that % hp scaling was practically never on tanks relatively new in its current abundance and most tanks had high ap ratios but short ranges so building ap wasnt practical. what are you talking about?

WoonStruckMar 5, 20171 votes

Amumu Maokai DrMundo Garen JarvanIV Trundle Zac Volibear Warwick

%HP damage is not relatively new.

AP ratios are irrelevant. We're talking about champions scaling with the HP they build being bad for the game. General %HP damage is not that bad. What are you talking about? You're the one replying to me.

LordGeovanniMar 5, 20171 votes

ap ratios are not irrelivant as the most champions didnt scale with their own health and and in previous seasons amumu and maokai used item 3116 for its abundant ap and hp even if they already had slows and other cc. every other champion you listed besides zacis some type of fighter that has the option to be taken as a tank but is not their primary role.

WoonStruckMar 6, 20171 votes

Mao NEVER used Rylai's.

It was Abyssal or RoA at most. Nothing else.

LordGeovanniMar 6, 20171 votes

500 hp 100 ap item that doesnt need to stack and also causes my w to apply a single target slow when w and e are on cd and first part of my e to slow where most people just out run it.

LordGeovanniMar 5, 20171 votes

may not mind haveing to be buffed to have 500 base damage spells with respectable cooldowns . was totally designed as a bullet sponge http://texashillcountry.com/wp-content/uploads/Firing_M1A1_tank_in_Djibouti.jpg