You're nerfing lethality 'cuz Wukong, really ?

option paralysis·Dec 23, 2017·5 votes·928 views

https://i.imgur.com/wfsOyg1.png

Not saying lethality doesn't need nerfs, but to say it's because Wukong is just insane. Zed and Kha Zix are in every other high elo game, and what was the last time you saw Wukong in high elo ? Never, because even his mains with literally thousands of games are d2-d1 at best. Did you ever play wukong against maokai/renekton/shen/ornn/darius top lane ? It's torture. No matter what you do, they outscale you and are more useful than you. In the jungle you get invaded by everyone and 1v1ed by a red buff. Only thing keeping him in the game is lethality. Don't wander without wards and complain that you get killed by a full lethality champion. He just needs a full rework, he is such an interesting character, you could do so much with him.

23 Comments

FireDrizzleDec 23, 20174 votes

"Did you ever play wukong against maokai/renekton/shen/ornn/darius top lane ? It's torture. No matter what you do, they outscale you and are more useful than you." No they dont, you sound like you have a pessimist outlook. I dont know how you think Ren or Darius scale better.

Sun Wu RyuumokuDec 23, 20171 votes

think he mean in 1v1 situation... if yes its true. if not, still true for mao, shen & Ornn... and they f*** him during laning phase and after.

redniwediSDec 23, 20174 votes

I mean they had two other names on the list, and were using those names to describe a type of champion rather than the full list of champions that are the reason. I'm honestly surprised they said Wukong instead of Pantheon, but Wukong is definitely an option for that list.

Sun Wu RyuumokuDec 23, 20171 votes

not for someone deserving a nerf

ShahamutDec 23, 20173 votes

Wukong is very strong early game with Lethality. If you don't build resist or just have built in sustain, he can stomp you with point and clicks.

I agree though, Wukong has some GREAT potential, and should definitely get a rework.

FireDrizzleDec 23, 20173 votes

He can be outsustained, he is mana gated and he has no way to farm without esposing himself. So I think his laning is really bad. He is reliant on ignite cheese, camp from jungler or his laner wasting his opportunity to bully or just derping.

If I was wrong about his laning being bad, he would have an insane winrate. Because Lethality Wu can burst down an entire team, let alone just a carry.

ShahamutDec 23, 20172 votes

for sure, his laning phase can be pretty bad, but if you have more early damage than your opponent, you can bully pretty easily.

And yeah, if his laning phase was "good" he would be god tier.

Sun Wu RyuumokuDec 23, 20172 votes

Wukong is very strong early game with Lethality.

He isnt, stop spread this bs.

If you don't build resist or just have built in sustain, he can stomp you with point and clicks.

Riven have no sustain and dosnt build any resistance and rekt Wukong. Same for Jayce... and i can go on.

ShahamutDec 23, 20172 votes

I wreck Riven and Jayce as WuKong...?

On another note, though, even if lethality was in an ok spot (I don't think it is) Duskblade needs a different passive. Giving that kind of extra burst to just about anyone is silly.

Same with Static Shiv in my opinion. It should either deal 1/2 damage to champions or not damage champions at all, keeping it as a primary wave clear tool, distinguishing it from hurricane as the champion multi target tool. Thats just my opinion: Items should not add a ton of burst to a champion, their kit should do that.

Sun Wu RyuumokuDec 23, 20171 votes

I wreck Riven and Jayce as WuKong...?

irrevelant, i do too cause im at low elo... but if u are at equal level (mean both know how to play his champ and matchup) Riven and jayce win against Wukong. But u are low gold... so match up mean nothing.

On another note, though, even if lethality was in an ok spot (I don't think it is) Duskblade needs a different passive. Giving that kind of extra burst to just about anyone is silly.

i don't disagree... but in same time it seems like u don't know why they gave this. they did this cause assassins weren't able to assassinate anymore due to their rework AND (this is the most important) cause adc were unkillable due to ardent and they burst faster, stronger and more reliably than assassins.

Same with Static Shiv in my opinion. It should either deal 1/2 damage to champions or not damage champions at all, keeping it as a primary wave clear tool, distinguishing it from hurricane as the champion multi target tool.

my opinion : items should either provide wave clear or damage but not all in one f*cking item.

ShahamutDec 24, 20171 votes

but if u are at equal level (mean both know how to play his champ and matchup) Riven and jayce win against Wukong

I wreck Riven and Jayce as WuKong...?

But u are low gold...

Meaning Im up against other "low gold opponents... So either you are saying that EVERY Riven/Jayce player at my level is just THAT bad, your you are saying that I am better than them... thanks?

... so match up mean nothing.

This is a cop-out and self defeating statement in light of what you said about players being equal skill/knowledge of the matchup.

i don't disagree... but in same time it seems like u don't know why they gave this. they did this cause assassins weren't able to assassinate anymore due to their rework AND (this is the most important) cause adc were unkillable due to ardent and they burst faster, stronger and more reliably than assassins.

On the contrary, I knew why they made it, but in my mind the way to fix a problem is not by adding more problems... because hey, adc's use duskblade as well! XD

my opinion : items should either provide wave clear or damage but not all in one f*cking item.

For the most part, I agree, but anything that grants attack speed or AD is going to add damage to an adc. Mild forms of damage increase, such as hurricane, which is a portion of your AD (recently let it crit, but no more on hit effects) is fine, but an extra magic damage burst that can crit in AoE is just too much in my opinion.

For me, Gunblade is a good example of an item (for the most part) that is a good AP assassin item. Its damage needs toned down a little bit, but its a small burst of extra damage with a slow, and because of its stats, it largely isn't abused by adc champions.

Sun Wu RyuumokuDec 24, 20171 votes

Meaning Im up against other "low gold opponents... So either you are saying that EVERY Riven/Jayce player at my level is just THAT bad, your you are saying that I am better than them... thanks?

im saying both. i mean, u play against other with same ranking... but it dosn't mean both of u have same skill. And ofc theses players at ur level are bad, in my opinions riven/jayce of plat (of my elo) are bad too and just abuse of some broken sh*t (broken =/= op). And yeah if u win with wukong against both, you are way better than them (at least during this x game). to begin wukong isn't good, investing time on other champ would get most Wu player higher than play wu.

This is a cop-out and self defeating statement in light of what you said about players being equal skill/knowledge of the matchup.

What i mean is low gold is too low for players to really know their champ and know how to abuse & deal with matchup. Dont know how to explain this ... but ill try. If i play against an Ornn, Darius, Olaf... I should HARD lose this lane with wu, and with xp change i should be irrevelent (cause when behind u are really behind). but i win the lane often against really bad matchup or im still even (and this is without taking jng in account ofc). meaning by that is elo and rank dosn't mean u and ur enemy have equal skill/knowledge. And i think plat "start" to understand a bit their matchup.

On the contrary, I knew why they made it, but in my mind the way to fix a problem is not by adding more problems... because hey, adc's use duskblade as well! XD

agree

For the most part, I agree, but anything that grants attack speed or AD is going to add damage to an adc. Mild forms of damage increase, such as hurricane, which is a portion of your AD (recently let it crit, but no more on hit effects) is fine, but an extra magic damage burst that can crit in AoE is just too much in my opinion.

agree. shocked me when i saw statick and other crit changes.

For me, Gunblade is a good example of an item (for the most part) that is a good AP assassin item.

yeah

Its damage needs toned down a little bit, but its a small burst of extra damage with a slow, and because of its stats, it largely isn't abused by adc champions.

it isn't cause its ap... but gunblade pro is similare to duskblade proc... its not a small burst. u can test in practice tool, when u have a low ap it hurt hard. i don't think a point and range clic is good way

ShahamutDec 24, 20171 votes

I mean, we will just have to agree to disagree on WuKong, I watch high elo players abuse his easy mechanics as well, so I dunno. He is certainly on of the bigger abusers of lethality though, especially duskblade.

... it's not a small burst...

I know, I meant in theory, assuming my previous statement that it's damage needed a nerf. What the item gives is a target access utility ability to the assassin which helps them do their job better, but not in a game breaking way. Imho

SalronDec 23, 20173 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ELoFF00GP4

Sun Wu RyuumokuDec 23, 20172 votes

Wukong didn't need a nerf, and they're nothing to argue here, okay he "can" stomp very hard at low elo but... it same for most champ. And they're no reason to pick wukong unless u are a one trick. He's to binary, easly controlled and can fall behind easly.

For low elo (plat include) of this board (most of here) if u want to c*ckblock Wu just use these items item 3340 item 2049 item 3401 item 3190 item 3047 .

If Wukong can't OS, he's dead and he's the OSed.

YokoNomiDec 23, 20171 votes

Don't know if I'd consider lethality over powered per say, but there are some champions that benefit almost a little to greatly from the attribute. I don't know how well a lot of us can claim whether or not it even deserves to be touched, but I have admittedly been in games where the obtaining of a dirk means a shut down lane. I'm saying this as someone who has fought with and against lethality. Keep in mind I am low elo, but I still feel like there's a point to be maid.

ElkingtonDec 23, 20171 votes

I was under the impression Wu's ult was the thing keeping him in the game. I mean there are much stronger abusers of lethality, like Kayn, MF and Jayce. Excluding J4, Wukong probably has the best initiation/teamfighting in the game out of all the bruisers. I would argue he's one of the better bruisers (even now) because of that and he can always outduel an ADC unless he goes full tank for some reason.

Sun Wu RyuumokuDec 23, 20171 votes

Wukong cant outduel an adc. He can assassinate them tho.

bruiser Wukong isnt viable. "assassin" Wu is.

I was under the impression Wu's ult was the thing keeping him in the game.

His ult is garbage if u ask me... mainly at lv6. Don't even know why riot gave him a dps ult for a burst assassins champs

ElkingtonDec 24, 20171 votes

Didn't his ult get nerfed quite some time ago? I remember in way earlier seasons he used to get pretty tanky and could still kill carries reliably, unless they had a good Janna/Soraka or something. He's always struggled to outduel anyone other than squishies though.

Sun Wu RyuumokuDec 24, 20171 votes

Didn't his ult get nerfed quite some time ago?

i don't think... but anyway, wasnt touched by riot since ages.

I remember in way earlier seasons he used to get pretty tanky and could still kill carries reliably

no was never... unless u mean when the atma thing was in game (or something along).

He's always struggled to outduel anyone other than squishies though.

yeah... and even against squishy duelist he's not so strong (Riven trynda...)

ElkingtonDec 25, 20171 votes

I mean back when Randuin's Omen was actually a good item (gave HP regen, cdr, and built from gp10) and defensive itemization in general was much stronger. Pretty much every melee could build tanky and still work to some degree. Atmas was still around at that point, but it was nerfed so only GP, Sion, and Garen could really make use of it. If Wu wanted to build damage he pretty much had a choice between Brutalizer and Phage --> Trinity or Frozen Mallet, after that it was build full tank (with maybe Maw of Malmortius thrown in there) or have no late game, along with all the other bruisers. Even Renekton used to rush Sunfire back then.

I remember Wukong making a great tanky initiator around that time. It wasn't until Riot changed the penetration formula after S2 ended that building him with mainly damage items became common. That was around the time he started going Black Cleaver/Ravenous Hydra into Last Whisper and he destroyed people.

Honestly, I would say Wu's current itemization is the best it's ever been. I wouldn't agree he's the primary reason lethality should be nerfed, but he certainly makes good use of it, better than most melees.

AhrisDec 23, 20171 votes

The fact that lethality is being nerfed for everyone is sad.

SlythionDec 23, 20171 votes

Why don't you address what Riot really said instead of spinning it to fit your narrative? Like, cmon dude. If you wanted to pretend they only talked about Wukong and not a whole list/type of champion at least edit out the other example names they gave like a true misleader. Lazy.