@Meddler, Soon Lulu mains won't be able to play their champion anymore

Ahristocats·Apr 8, 2017·11 votes·1,460 views

https://i.gyazo.com/d9413ac6f8189f373e47dac7b4fb1dc5.png

80% ban rate

In the past you always gave your opinion on perma-banned champions like zed or syndra when she had 80% ban rate

So why aren't you talkng about Lulu in any of your "balance thread"=?, you also generally don't avoid high win rate champion (muh shaco win rate) so how is a champion perma-banned that has 53% win rate is invisible in your eyes?

you can say she's fine, but at least talk about her i just want to hear your opinion The meta has shifted a long time ago as assassins disappeared, every burst champion got nerfed (except mages) renekton is rulling toplane with fiora and both don't have burst (unless renekton is 4 lvls ahead), botlane is blade of the ruined king users that don't 100-0 you in 1 second like ezreal/lucian/kalista/kog

You can't use the escuse of "it's the meta of lulu" anymore hell lulu in the past 7 years has been broken in any form of meta due to her kit giving bonus ms, bonus as, shield, bonus on-hit damage, AOE Slow around bruiser, AOE knock up, point and click hard cc, anti-stealth spell

I repeat it, please express yourself about Lulu

-gH

20 Comments

cocacolalipsApr 8, 201711 votes

Gotta point out your data is only from EU west.

Lulu has like 3% ban rate in Korea for example.

AnastaeciaApr 8, 20176 votes

What site is that 79% on? That is not even close to right. Is it just for diamond or master or something?

Ratchet FortuneApr 8, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Best princess EUApr 8, 20172 votes

champ.gg sucks

go on leagueofgraphs

chipndip1Apr 8, 20173 votes

Wanna know why Lulu's a balancing nightmare that's either op beyond belief or shitty as hell?

Same reason it happens to Sona: No skill expression. Everything's automated through click or button pressing. Difference is that Sona's perpetually held down in most metas/situations, whereas Lulu's brought back into the fold, only to get nerfed in the nose again.

No one cares though, so enjoy learning a new champion.

SirLapseApr 8, 20172 votes

You have the choice to peel or initiate with your ultimate, your E aiming for Q is unique to Lulu, and the amount of choice you have for Whimsy shouldn't even be something I have to state.

Sona pushes buttons to do one linear action and Staccato is the only "choice" she gets, which is extremely limited due to how fast it takes for her to charge that thing up. If Sona was more like post-rework Rengar where her combos happen so fast that she needs to make her choice in-combat and cannot do so outside of combat, then her "choice based system" would be more apparent. Early game she doesn't have that potential but later on into the game she does with the apparent 'button-mashing" people mention. If you'd want that to change then sort it on another topic (though I'm sure people are tired of seeing Sona threads saying the same thing over and over but getting nothing accomplished).

Point is, Lulu and Sona aren't even comparable. Lulu is all about peel which Sona doesn't do, and the primary reason to choose Sona over Lulu is dependent on Ardent Censer application, in other words buffing the ADC. Except, Lulu does that too. :/

chipndip1Apr 8, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You have the choice to peel or initiate with your ultimate, your E aiming for Q is unique to Lulu, and the amount of choice you have for Whimsy shouldn't even be something I have to state.

SKILL EXPRESSION =/= DECISION MAKING

Knowing what to do in the game =/= the ability to push a character to its limits to accomplish that thing. Lulu's entirely automated save her Q. Decision making doesn't change how easy it is to play her when you have the on-paper shit down. Same for Sona. As a Sona player, I have VERY little to worry about on the mechanical side of playing this champ. Winning with her is almost entirely based on game knowledge. I know to do things or call for things to exploit what the enemy's currently lacking on. That's basically it.

Nautilus support is stupid enough to buy a Deadman's Plate? Build Redemption and team fight while his team has no sustain. Kat's fed? Abyssal Scepter after Locket so she wastes time trying to kill me. Enemy picked Lulu because she's op? Sona's strong in that lane anyway. Enemy picked Blitz to counter Sona? No they didn't because I started perma-banning Blitz so I can just play Sona. I'm not out-playing anything. I'm not doing anything that anyone else can't do. I'm just deciding on shit. That isn't skill expression though.

Sona pushes buttons to do one linear action and Staccato is the only "choice" she gets, which is extremely limited due to how fast it takes for her to charge that thing up. If Sona was more like post-rework Rengar where her combos happen so fast that she needs to make her choice in-combat and cannot do so outside of combat, then her "choice based system" would be more apparent. Early game she doesn't have that potential but later on into the game she does with the apparent 'button-mashing" people mention. If you'd want that to change then sort it on another topic (though I'm sure people are tired of seeing Sona threads saying the same thing over and over but getting nothing accomplished).

Point is, Lulu and Sona aren't even comparable. Lulu is all about peel which Sona doesn't do, and the primary reason to choose Sona over Lulu is dependent on Ardent Censer application, in other words buffing the ADC. Except, Lulu does that too. :/

...this has NOTHING to do with what I said before.

SirLapseApr 8, 20172 votes

{quoted}

SKILL EXPRESSION =/= DECISION MAKING

Skill as a player does involve decision making and isn't really inherent to the champion, but adding a significantly higher number of choices like you have for things like Lulu (i.e. whether to buff ADC with E vs. using it yourself to harass the enemy, CC'ing an enemy vs. buffing someone else, using ulti for an engage or for peel) makes it MUCH more skill-oriented than something like Sona who possesses skills with self-explanatory and one dimensional uses.

Not noting the significance of decision-making on a kit really demeans what skill expression actually is, since you're saying that mechanically nothing is happening for a champion with such a broad range of choices. Supports aren't Yasuo/Riven/Fiora and they don't have to be for a player to express their skill.

...this has NOTHING to do with what I said before.

It does. Lulu currently isn't a balancing nightmare despite what the OP is stating. The reason for why a Lulu would be strong vs. if a Sona would be is completely different, so the angle you gave as to the "why" is a complete nonfactor made on the idea that both Lulu and Sona are doing around the same thing (which I assume is generalized into supporting if you look at the path of discussion).

Have to involve these factors:

-who do these supports work with

-what does the support give that secures an advantage against the current meta

-how easy is it to do the job of what the support wants to do

Can easily note why Bard isn't amazingly good in solo queue with those observations, but justify why Lulu is strong through the same analysis. If skill expression was the only thing that mattered then the only viable supports would involve a "gotcha" mechanic like hooks.

chipndip1Apr 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Skill as a player does involve decision making and isn't really inherent to the champion, but adding a significantly higher number of choices like you have for things like Lulu (i.e. whether to buff ADC with E vs. using it yourself to harass the enemy, CC'ing an enemy vs. buffing someone else, using ulti for an engage or for peel) makes it MUCH more skill-oriented than something like Sona who possesses skills with self-explanatory and one dimensional uses.

Choosing an option has nothing to do with skill. That's your knowledge. A Bronze 3 player can pick the same Powerchord I'd use in a given instance very easy. The difference is that I'd have the game knowledge to know to pick that Powerchord. A Bronze player would pick Q in almost any instance because "damage", though. Knowledge expression shows that I made the higher level call, but skill expressed is nearly identical unless I had to Flash or land Redemption on a spot or something.

Same with Lulu. Pressing W on someone is easy. Pressing W on the right person, given you actually know who that is is just as easy. That's a knowledge expression sort of problem, not a skill expression problem. There's no margin of error in doing anything Lulu does, save landing Q, and nothing you typed in this paragraph or the next refutes that, so why bother wasting the calories?

Not noting the significance of decision-making on a kit really demeans what skill expression actually is, since you're saying that mechanically nothing is happening for a champion with such a broad range of choices. Supports aren't Yasuo/Riven/Fiora and they don't have to be for a player to express their skill.

They don't. Nami/Bard/Braum/Thresh/Blitz are obvious supports with more skill expression than Sona or Lulu.

It does. Lulu currently isn't a balancing nightmare despite what the OP is stating. The reason for why a Lulu would be strong vs. if a Sona would be is completely different, so the angle you gave as to the "why" is a complete nonfactor made on the idea that both Lulu and Sona are doing around the same thing (which I assume is generalized into supporting if you look at the path of discussion).

Can easily note why Bard isn't amazingly good in solo queue with those observations, but justify why Lulu is strong through the same analysis. If skill expression was the only thing that mattered then the only viable supports would involve a "gotcha" mechanic like hooks.

Skill expression isn't the only thing that matters. However, it's harder to make a champion that's thoroughly busted through skill expression alone than it is to make a champ that's busted through knowledge expression alone. Thus, someone like Lulu finds herself in balancing swings where she's too strong or too weak because there's very little that divides "The good Lulus from the great Lulus". Once you know what to do, it's very difficult for her to botch it, and that lack of counter-play in her kit makes her a balancing nightmare.

If you're going to respond, you have to respect the notion that room for skill expression gives room for counter-play, thus Lulu's kit has very little counter-play.

SirLapseApr 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Choosing an option has nothing to do with skill. That's your knowledge. A Bronze 3 player can pick the same Powerchord I'd use in a given instance very easy. The difference is that I'd have the game knowledge to know to pick that Powerchord.

I have seen countless topics and have played Sona myself to know that Power Chord is the right Staccato for 80% of all situations, primarily in lane and then in teamfights. Utility Sona is the one that prefers the other two Staccato's, meaning she'd have to be playing with that intent. Her normal gameplay doesn't expand past a certain point because choice isn't immediate, therefore as a player it does not require you to be dynamic. Skill is expressed tangibly in a huge, noticeable way by dynamic reaction in League, though that's not the only form of skill. You're comparing a champion with a low skill floor to begin with to something like Lulu, which doesn't really help your point seeing as Lulu has a higher skill floor just in needing to land Q in lane.

Same with Lulu. Pressing W on someone is easy.

Pushing a button is easy? In my 10+ years of gaming I've never realized that. Thanks for telling me.

Pressing W on the right person, given you actually know who that is is just as easy. That's a knowledge expression sort of problem, not a skill expression problem. There's no margin of error in doing anything Lulu does, save landing Q, and nothing you typed in this paragraph or the next refutes that, so why bother wasting the calories?

And when that isn't a static decision, by you being the support that's meant to assist the team and not necessarily one player 100% of the time, you need to be able to discern things in a chaotic environment like teamfights. A low elo Lulu may use skills on the wrong person simply because the situation appeared dangerous when it really wasn't to a character, or the ultimate was used improperly (which requires knowing team comp AND the situation). All peel has to be timed for best effectiveness regardless, like polymorphing Hecarim RIGHT as he is going to leap in, negating the damage entirely. You ignored that dynamic entirely for whatever reason, though probably not a reason I care about.

Compared to Sona who only needs to properly land ulti after deciding if/when to use it, Lulu has to think about a higher number of total actions. You could easily compare it to Fiora who decides what skill(s) to actually be looking for to parry, which requires an immense amount of game knowledge for teamfights even if it's limited to the other champ's kit in lane. Same for Yasuo's Wind Wall. If you want to call that easy because of the point and click nature, I think we don't play the same game. The timing is the most significant element that decides the effectiveness.

They don't. Nami/Bard/Braum/Thresh/Blitz are obvious supports with more skill expression than Sona or Lulu.

Oh hey look, supports with "gotcha" mechanics. You missed my point and are noting supports that considerably prevent the opponent's short-term response (Leona fits better than Braum in that aspect however). I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you for the next 10 years of my life, but skill is a term that states what the player is capable of, not just the champion's capability. If anything, the champion is what amplifies/neutralizes the player's capacity when involving skillshots and choice-based action, not the other way around. That's why skill expression can be about decision-making, not just mechanical prowess. Supports usually revolve around that idea in the first place.

Skill expression isn't the only thing that matters.

You say Lulu is difficult to balance because she revolves around point and click however. I would rather you not contradict yourself. Lulu has never been difficult to balance in the support role regardless due to her high CDs that limit her choices, and it was always solo lane Lulu that was the issue.

If you're going to respond, you have to respect the notion that room for skill expression gives room for counter-play, thus Lulu's kit has very little counter-play.

When a peeler is forced to answer to something, they will have to answer it or a teammate dies. That's what a frontline is for, and that's their job to handle. Your team doesn't have that? Well, the peeler's job just became much easier. We do have counterplay to peeling supports and that's to either kill them before they get huge impact off (which is the same way to handle Soraka) or to make their presence irrelevant via killing the intended individual before a response can be made or distracting/CC'ing the enemy support.

There's a reason Lulu is considered a mediocre support, and it's because her high CDs only allow her to commit to one or two people at any given time with no consistent response to sustained damage other than preventing the major dealer of that damage the ability to fight (which with a frontline initiation makes it extremely difficult for her).

You're Diamond aren't you? Solo queue doesn't really give much room for team coordination, but the team composition can decrease or increase counterplay to the enemy's strategy depending on the situation. You can't deny that at the very least. Lulu is one of those champions that takes advantage of that aspect with all the carry top laners and huge lack of tanks in the solo queue meta. The synergy with carries and her existence being the antithesis of a damage meta gives her such a high power curve more than anything else. If the meta were to shift then her relevance would drop to what it previously was a couple patches ago.

chipndip1Apr 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I have seen countless topics and have played Sona myself to know that Power Chord is the right Staccato for 80% of all situations, primarily in lane and then in teamfights.

And this is how I know you're just talking out of hearsay.

Utility Sona is the one that prefers the other two Staccato's, meaning she'd have to be playing with that intent. Her normal gameplay doesn't expand past a certain point because choice isn't immediate, therefore as a player it does not require you to be dynamic. Skill is expressed tangibly in a huge, noticeable way by dynamic reaction in League, though that's not the only form of skill. You're comparing a champion with a low skill floor to begin with to something like Lulu, which doesn't really help your point seeing as Lulu has a higher skill floor just in needing to land Q in lane.

Most Sona players are converting to utility builds, anyway.
So in the same breath you're saying Lulu's not a low skill floor champion due to decision making, you're saying Sona is?

"Oh, reacting to someone's attack with my shield over and over on Lulu shows my skill."

You realize that Sona's W...is more shield than heal, right? To be fair, you're right on that point, where being able to react to a speeding projectile or incoming dive with a shield is a bit of skill expression to be had, but since Lulu's kit is as barren as they come in terms of counter-play or any real margin of error, any "display of skill" Lulu could claim to have is something that'll most likely be shared by Sona to some degree...since they're the same in that regard.

Regardless, they're both low on skill expression.

Pushing a button is easy? In my 10+ years of gaming I've never realized that. Thanks for telling me.

Talk to me in 10 more.

And when that isn't a static decision, by you being the support that's meant to assist the team and not necessarily one player 100% of the time, you need to be able to discern things in a chaotic environment like teamfights.

Doesn't negate the point that it's a knowledge concern and not a skill set concern. Stop wasting words.

All peel has to be timed for best effectiveness regardless, like polymorphing Hecarim RIGHT as he is going to leap in, negating the damage entirely. You ignored that dynamic entirely for whatever reason, though probably not a reason I care about.

Doesn't negate her lack of counter-play, although timing a thing does show a bit of skill in that regard. It isn't much, which is why these champs are low on skill expression, but it's a point to be made and honored.

Compared to Sona who only needs to properly land ulti after deciding if/when to use it,

So Sona's passive is just magically removed from her kit I guess.

Lulu has to think about a higher number of total actions.

Still doesn't change anything.

You could easily compare it to Fiora who decides what skill(s) to actually be looking for to parry, which requires an immense amount of game knowledge for teamfights even if it's limited to the other champ's kit in lane.

Difference is that there's difficulty in actually DOING what Fiora does. Angling attacks to hit vitals, timing her parry, jumping over walls with her dash in chases/escapes, fully landing her ult in fights, and AA resets. These are all things that separate a good Fiora from a great one, and just knowing "I can do X" isn't enough to change that, unlike these two champs in question.

Oh hey look, supports with "gotcha" mechanics. You missed my point and are noting supports that considerably prevent the opponent's short-term response (Leona fits better than Braum in that aspect however). I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you for the next 10 years of my life, but skill is a term that states what the player is capable of, not just the champion's capability. If anything, the champion is what amplifies/neutralizes the player's capacity when involving skillshots and choice-based action, not the other way around. That's why skill expression can be about decision-making, not just mechanical prowess. Supports usually revolve around that idea in the first place.

"Gotcha mechanics"? You mean "hard cc"? If anything, they're all telegraphed skill shots. A "gotcha mechanic" would more resemble a fat ass shield + health boost + knock-up on someone straight out of nowhere when there's no way around it outside of the user activating it too early. :^)

You say Lulu is difficult to balance because she revolves around point and click however. I would rather you not contradict yourself.** Lulu has never been difficult to balance in the support role regardless due to her high CDs that limit her choices**, and it was always solo lane Lulu that was the issue.

You're making Silvers look bad with this one. Solo lane Lulu wouldn't have even been an issue to begin with if she had any counter-play.

We do have counterplay to peeling supports and that's to either kill them before they get huge impact off (which is the same way to handle Soraka) or to make their presence irrelevant via killing the intended individual before a response can be made or distracting/CC'ing the enemy support.

That isn't relevant counter-play. Relevant counter-play is, if I do a thing, you can play around that thing.

Fiora's passive is an example of a mechanic with evident counter-play. If you position the spot at a wall or just generally away from me, I can't hit it and you can beat me up before I can snowball off of you.

Yasuo's Wind Wall also has counter-play. Once he uses the wall, you can walk through or around it to hit someone on the other side.

Shields/heals generally don't have counter-play. You can counter-build heals, and decaying shields decrease in power as you wait them out, but for the most part, sustain options are generally devoid of counter-play unless you opt to not play at all until they go away.

Same goes for auto-targeted moves. Your success condition is "I'm in range". I can't do anything about it except "Get hit and kill you while your cds are low", but that's not me playing around your attack more than it's me smacking my face against it. Much like those shields. Get it now?

There's a reason Lulu is considered a mediocre support

Lulu is top tier right now...

You're Diamond aren't you? Solo queue doesn't really give much room for team coordination, but the team composition can decrease or increase counterplay to the enemy's strategy depending on the situation. You can't deny that at the very least. Lulu is one of those champions that takes advantage of that aspect with all the carry top laners and huge lack of tanks in the solo queue meta. The synergy with carries and her existence being the antithesis of a damage meta gives her such a high power curve more than anything else. If the meta were to shift then her relevance would drop to what it previously was a couple patches ago.

Lulu's strong not because of any damn assassin or tank meta. Lulu's strong for two reasons:

They buffed her repeatedly.
They nerfed out the top tier, high damage mages.

It's funny how people blame metas for shit when they don't realize just how much Riot sticks their hand in the pot to stir it.

Also, I am Diamond. Where's my "no back talk" card? This is droning on way too long and you're not getting it.

SirLapseApr 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't negate the point that it's a knowledge concern and not a skill set concern.

I'm going to cut straight to the point and say that you have no idea what constitutes the fullness of the word "skill" if you want to exclude factors simply because you want a visual placeholder to say "yeah this moment was held up by this play rather than the consistency of how the lane functioned due to the champions present in it." The risk of the role matters for the skill necessary to succeed in it, same for job execution and the consistency through which you perform that job.

Not to be Captain Obvious but..

KNOWLEDGE APPLICATION IS A SKILL.

Even if you don't hold it highly in your head, it's why you're high elo to begin with. A person could know all the same things as you but if s/he can't apply it in a timely manner, it's all for naught.

Doesn't negate her lack of counter-play, although timing a thing does show a bit of skill in that regard. It isn't much, which is why these champs are low on skill expression, but it's a point to be made and honored.

Honored for the sake of where it is powerful yes. Imagining a jungle gank going bad because Lulu is a hard lane to gank, especially so for an assassin, is typical. I have mentioned already that Lulu copies what an enchanter does AND is a disruptor. That's an inflated kit by its nature of occurrence, but gated in relevance by damage falling off (which was always her weakness) and the single-target nature of application combined with CDs.

In other words, she's the perfect fit for the generalist support and is succeeding due to her weaknesses not mattering (seeing as her damage can scale off the ADC). Her buffs might've led her to this point, but the idea that it's because of her skill expression being "low" that makes her strong is extremely general and is running more off of Solo lane Lulu logic. The ADC meta shifted in favor of her and supports scale well based on that right now, so her Whimsy and Pix essentially never get wasted. Janna is in a similar position. The supports that can't enchant are the ones not doing so well right now, rather than Lulu being too strong.

Difference is that there's difficulty in actually DOING what Fiora does. Angling attacks to hit vitals, timing her parry, jumping over walls with her dash in chases/escapes, fully landing her ult in fights, and AA resets. These are all things that separate a good Fiora from a great one, and just knowing "I can do X" isn't enough to change that, unlike these two champs in question.

There are no mechanical nuances you can observe in a high elo Fiora that you cannot view in a low elo one except on the application of Riposte and the effectiveness by which one chases. For such a high skill cap champion, that's quite a small skill gap mechanically compared to animation cancelling seen on Riven, Yasuo and Graves. Ever still, a person could be great mechanically but have poor game knowledge, yet players say that "real skill" is having both.

In conclusion, game knowledge (from CC skills to block to the lane matchups) application is the true determining factor of skill on any champion, but for Fiora it's made in visible form and "can be hard to execute." Is that all there is to winning top lane and doing your job? We can mention mana management, wave management, and so forth but all of that depends on the player's knowledge application. The champion doesn't just do that for you even if it does have strengths you can utilize.

Solo lane Lulu wouldn't have even been an issue to begin with if she had any counter-play.

Lulu was never oppressive as a support was the whole point of the statement. That angle of the argument is irrelevant.

That isn't relevant counter-play. Relevant counter-play is, if I do a thing, you can play around that thing.

And the tank can force the enemy team to play around him/herself. Things like Fiora, Yasuo, etc. also force the enemy to play around them.

Relevant counter-play is determined by the champions at play, not the kits by themselves. If I told you who would win in a fight between an attack speed based ADC vs. Camille at lv6, that's not an answer with clear, multiple possibilities gameplay-wise is it? The game doesn't play by that standard and so the Camille is with every advantage. Towers, if there is a teammate who can peel, if the ADC is something like Vayne that can stall out the ultimate, etc. are all elements applied because of situational applications, which have situational answers. Whether those answers are realistic/expected or not depends entirely on the meta.

Yasuo's Wind Wall also has counter-play. Once he uses the wall, you can walk through or around it to hit someone on the other side.

Because he can use the wall reactively and it's instant cast, people would argue against that. He has the Wall until he uses it. In a chaotic teamfight, if you are forced to activate things that his Wind Wall can counter, a skilled Yasuo will completely nullify your action and can skew fights into his favor. He's not suddenly forced to use it if the player has built up their game knowledge. That skill is actually the embodiment of "no counter-play" to ranged characters since it's not a spell shield that has a single usage and does not require specific timing (otherwise failing). Non-projectile melees don't need to care about the Wind Wall, meaning there is no counter-play necessary and it only showcases my point more that counter-play is situational.

Shields/heals generally don't have counter-play. You can counter-build heals, and decaying shields decrease in power as you wait them out, but for the most part, sustain options are generally devoid of counter-play unless you opt to not play at all until they go away.

They're not designed to be countered. Not in any game that has them exist in a balanced fashion. It's the same way that you can't counter a person having blue buff or red buff, either they have it and you play with that knowledge, or they don't. Riot has balanced Soraka around high base cost and needing the consistency of harass to succeed, so the play pattern's opportunities can be punished. Meaning, there is counter-play to the champion due to the imperfect efficiency of the strategy. With Lulu's high CD Whimsy, if the laners cause her to burn it, the jungler gets a free chance at doing something.

Same goes for auto-targeted moves. Your success condition is "I'm in range". I can't do anything about it except "Get hit and kill you while your cds are low", but that's not me playing around your attack more than it's me smacking my face against it. Much like those shields. Get it now?

Same argument as I presented above. The strategy itself and how strong it is will be based on that range and those who interact with it. Same way a ranged character has an advantage over a melee. However, being lower range in bot lane means ranged characters can punish you more, and succeeding does not mean "free trades" all the time. Sustained damage counters shields by nature, nothing wrong with that.

Lulu is top tier right now...

She's flexible (as she's a generalist) which is desirable for solo queue. Flavor of the month champions all work that way too. They're flexible enough for the meta to be the "safe pick" rather than utmost "best pick." Lulu wasn't working with Lethality ADCs since they aren't attack speed based, which was a huge reason she wasn't that good (yet was seeing success with Kog'Maw).. Same with the armor penetration meta when that was a thing, which was a huge amount of time in the ADC patch cycles.

Lulu's strong not because of any damn assassin or tank meta.

She is capable of falling back onto her ADC if she doesn't snowball the lane unlike most other supports due to her enchanter qualities. That's also why Janna and Nami are around the same position as Lulu, with Sona and Soraka not too far behind. BoTRK carries are much more popular, so anything that can enchant them will have a higher chance of carrying the game by proxy (Lulu especially does well with Lucian due to her E).

The damage meta is all about who is carrying it (though it was too general of a statement), and ADCs with BoTRK rush are holding a lot of it.

It's funny how people blame metas for shit when they don't realize just how much Riot sticks their hand in the pot to stir it.

Lethality when it was popular did not see Lulu be popular. That should show enough evidence for how we as players respond to a metashift and it not purely being Riot on their own. I'm not "blaming" a meta for being what it is, I'm stating facts because the opinion being presented is that she's "too strong." We have to ask why she looks that way and I'm mentioning why. The meta is extremely responsible for it despite you saying it's not (as I've noted multiple times). Lulu has no sustain so we'll eventually be seeing things that can bully her out if what I'm seeing is correct (though Caitlyn is already good at that).

Also, I am Diamond. Where's my "no back talk" card? This is droning on way too long and you're not getting it.

That's not the right idea to have. You should be trying to illustrate your opinions in a less condescending way so that it's more agreeable, otherwise you're attempting to talk "at" me, not "with" me. I don't personally see it as droning since I see where you're coming from and I'm trying to give my point of view even if it doesn't change your opinion, since I want anyone who bothers to read this to be able to generate their own opinions with as much info as possible (the point of discussion in my eyes). Your opinion and my opinion are just ingredients for people to work with. Take that as you will.

chipndip1Apr 10, 20172 votes

Look, I'm not about to parse this up into pieces because this length is getting ridiculous and you're skipping over one basic point over and over again. I'm going to wrap it up with this:

Lulu's issue as a champion is that she has no margin of error. No one's saying that being smart about the use of the champion is "worse or better" as a tool in the game in terms of merit, but what I AM saying is that having no room to fail what you do on a champion makes them difficult to put in a balanced spot because they easily teeter from too strong or too weak. Meddler said the same thing about Sona, and it's the same thing that's going on with Lulu. There's nothing to play around, so whatever strength she is "potentially" is way easier to reach on her than most other champs in the game.

Lulu's lack of counter-play isn't forgiven because "I could be dumb enough to be bad at Lulu". Point. Blank. Period.

SirLapseApr 10, 20172 votes

I'll wrap my own point then by saying that if the issue with Lulu is about "lack of counterplay," then it's a really small problem in terms of why a support (especially one that is utility oriented) would be strong. Sona is in that area and can actually smash a lane by doing well over 100 damage in lv1 trades, which was perpetuated in her previous incarnations and for some reason was preserved. Damage is more unhealthy than CC, and you get Ryze when you have both. Broken as hell, though this new one just takes more effort/knowledge to use. Alternatively Nautilus.

I am by no means saying that fighting Lulu feels fair, because it doesn't feel fair. It never felt fair even when she wasn't a popular support which is only recently. I could say that for many champions on the roster however depending on how many times per week I see it. Malzahar isn't exactly the fairest thing either when allowed to support.

However, Cho'Gath's silence is the embodiment of "no counterplay" but he's not meta right now, is he? It's because his lack of mobility exists and directly shoots him in the foot. Lulu on the other hand has 2 item powerspike attack-speed-reliant ADCs like Lucian and can buff them to even more ridiculous proportions. It's no wonder that Lulu is really strong right now, when she's really bad with Lethality ADCs or if there's too much to peel. The other supports if they can't copy an enchanter will fall behind as long as item 3504 item 3107 item 3190 remain really strong and as long as the rest of the support item options are untouched. The meta is definitely favoring her right now.

MordepoolApr 8, 20172 votes

Mid season tank update will shift things around

AhristocatsApr 8, 20172 votes

until then why nothing is being done? Shaco is being nerfed, rengar is being nerfed when tank update will hit them, but lulu? she'll be able to slow them almost permanently+gives a shield/bonus ms to enable her own tanks+aoe slow around them

tank supports will still be bullied by her as their laning phase will not be changed, i fail to see what will fixe lulu

-gH