Why should I even play Kindred when Graves exists

Danny DeVito·Mar 20, 2017·90 votes·6,878 views

, a marksman designed specifically for jungle and nothing else has their job done better by AND has a less healthy clear

I'm so sick of having to play against Graves almost every single game, the dude is just too dang good in just about every jungle matchup.

Why would you not want him, he gets resistances from True Grit, has insane burst right from the get-go and he has that BS blind. (Also his Q hitbox is jank as fuck on the way back and should probably be looked at.)

I have mastery 7 on Kindred and I'm debating just switching to Graves if Riot lets it stay this way

112 Comments

Bladerunner7777Mar 21, 201740 votes

one has better hentai

the other doesn't even have a cigar

Lord BoltrixMar 22, 20171 votes

Kindred fills the 'dat Ashe' role very well.

...inb4 cries of Ashe buffs to her rear.

Handy Sandy Mar 20, 201730 votes

Why should I even play Kindred when Graves exists

Because you love the champion's kit and consider yourself a dedicated main

MarshbouyMar 20, 201718 votes

Yeah OP is basically asking "why play any one champion when i could just main FOTM"

SithesisLordMar 21, 20175 votes

Which is understandable. Why be a main or an OTP when you can be a meta slave?

CandoodleMar 21, 20172 votes

GOOD QUESTION! why let's look at higher elo's and see which one is better for climbing

Contstantly switching champs you play or players who have small dedicated pools or OTP's

Hellen KellerMar 21, 201723 votes

Except at this point its more just flavor of the year.

ShinjusukeMar 22, 20171 votes

Pretty much this.

Like, most FotM champions, particularly 4-5 seasons ago, would be stupid strong for a little while, and then get overtaken by a new FotM (with it's own matchup weaknesses and whatnot)

Riot has apparently, however, switched to a trend where champions are "FotM" for absurdly long periods of time.

Some of them, like Lee/Yas etc, people have just come to accept as "they're flashy and have enough fans that they're immune to being rationally looked at by Riot", but others are just weirdly lengthy in the amount of time they're overtuned or overloaded.

I mean shoot, Lee and Graves are so far beyond everyone else in terms of jungling power, it really does feel like you're kneecapping yourself by not playing them.

There's no light at the end of the tunnel. You can't keep playing your main and think to yourself "______ will get nerfed soon cuz they're FotM and then my champ won't be so disadvantaged" anymore. You might be looking at a 6-18 month long period where the same champ dominates in a role because they're either A) big in LCS, B) popular or C) popular within Riot HQ.

DynikusMar 20, 201717 votes

I'm so sick of having to play against Graves almost every single game

that's why he should be banned almost every single game.

If I'm not mistaken, they were talking about removing his MR from true grit

HammermancerMar 20, 20174 votes

that would actually make him completely unusable, jesus lower his burst before you lower his defenses anymore

KnoyleMar 21, 201712 votes

No that would give him an actual reason to THINK a second before mindlessly trying to 1v3 and coming out with a triple just because he gets fucking Tank defensive steroids while having Assassin tier burst.

HammermancerMar 20, 20179 votes

it's not grave's fault that kindred suck

Nah i'm joking

but not really

she came out a little too tuned, and got gutted.

Graves is powerful, but that's like saying "Why play kindred jg when i could play twitch"

MissingKayoMar 21, 20173 votes

Kindred was fine. And then Riot buffed them out the ass for LCS.

Arsenic SulfurMar 21, 20172 votes

Kindred was a disaster waiting to happen. They made a champion with 3 unmissable damaging abilities and a "press this button" ult. Until they can fuck up they'll have to be in the dumpster.

MissingKayoMar 21, 20172 votes

Except they were actually balanced until they overbuffed for LCS.

Arsenic SulfurMar 21, 20175 votes

Not for long. If any damage dealers became weaker, then Kindred would come in and become the best damage jungler period because you can't outplay Kindred. So they'd naturally get dumpstered until Riot says "Hey we should make E a skillshot."

Let me put into perspective the strength of absolute reliability. Think of champions that can't miss, and I mean actually can't miss not Graves who just tries to point-blank stuff. You get Garen Jax Katarina Kayle MasterYi Nunu Rammus Vayne Udyr Volibear XinZhao . What do all of these champions have in common? They either feel shit to play as or incredibly shit to play against. Except Nunu who feels bad to play against for different reasons.

This is because balance is only a number game. If it's 10 too low, we get Garen who is complete and total shit becuase they can't do their job and if they were any better they'd crowd out everything. If the numbers are 10 too high we get... Well any of them when they're strong, who DO crowd out everything else because why risk it when someone else doesn't have to and will get the same/similar results? This means you have to find the exact perfect numbers, but those won't be perfect for long because everything else changes.

Not saying reliability is a bad thing, but when your kit is 100% reliable you're a problem and in need of a rework big or small.

dolphinosplash24Mar 20, 20175 votes

Potential infinite AD scaling and a fight changing ult

MarshbouyMar 20, 201714 votes

Potential infinite AD scaling

wait what

dolphinosplash24Mar 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

wait what

Kindreds passive. If you mark champions and then participate in killing them or you kill a somewhat randomly mark jg camp you get a stack of the hunt. with each stack you q does more damage and your AA do % hp damage.If this has a limit i dont know about it.

TuffnarMar 21, 20174 votes

Kindred vs Graves, assuming graves is paying attention to mark locations, and both are doing decent, kindred won't even be able to get 20. I don't see how that should affect balancing.

EnlegacyMar 21, 20176 votes

In basically any given situation Kindred can't get 20. That requires a level of snowballing in such a long game it doesn't really make much sense. Or an AFK enemy jungler.

dolphinosplash24Mar 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Kindred vs Graves, assuming graves is paying attention to mark locations, and both are doing decent, kindred won't even be able to get 20. I don't see how that should affect balancing.

Your assuming kindred is against a graves. If kindred is against a jg with a poor clear or one that can be kited easily then she will have a better time. Now im not saying graves wont be good against these champs im just trying to defend the other side a little. They definatly need some buffs.

TuffnarMar 24, 20171 votes

Basically any jg can't get kited by kindred though, yi has his q, olaf has his slow, hell all viable jgs have some form of cc or way to get on top of you (grave E) And I'm not trying to argue that kindred is shit against graves, im trying to argue that kindred is shit all the time. (assuming enemy jungle/team pays attention) IWD has a new video playing against a kindred perfectly explaining why she's basically a troll pick right now.

GULAG 4 UMar 21, 20173 votes

Pretty sure it is % health damage scaling and not ad.

SlythionMar 21, 20175 votes

why would anyone play kindred in the first place? :^)

KakitaMikeMar 21, 20175 votes

Needs marks to be good. Can't contest early game to get her marks because her base stats are so poor. So you might be okay with her in low elo where your enemy jungler doesn't know any better to contest your first couple marks, but anyone who knows how kindred works is just going to dumpster you the entire game.

The Sword SaintMar 20, 20174 votes

Because if he falls behind early due to invades, bad ganks, or counterganks then he becomes a waste of a teamate who just eats all the cs in every lane in a desperate attempt to stay relevant while the real carries starve, the wonders why the game was lost when he has 400 cs but his team is only at 4 items and the enemy 4 item tank jungler won every teamfight by pressing r.

MarshbouyMar 20, 20177 votes

Basically this. Since graves needs to be in close range to deal damage and his inherent tankiness takes time to build, he needs to be ahead to do well.

DivewingMar 21, 201714 votes

problem there is that "ahead" for graves is equal to "I got a kill"

MarshbouyMar 21, 20176 votes

that's bs and you know it.

KnoyleMar 21, 20177 votes

So is his auto damage.

MissingKayoMar 21, 20172 votes

More like "I didn't feed."

AimléssMar 21, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Basically this. Since graves needs to be in close range to deal damage and his inherent tankiness takes time to build, he needs to be ahead to do well.

But Grave's range isn't much lower than Kendrids, plus his abilities have great range on them, especially his ult.

ThefrostyvikingMar 21, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Basically this. Since graves needs to be in close range to deal damage and his inherent tankiness takes time to build, he needs to be ahead to do well.

On the other hand his damage is never bad and his burst is actually quite good at 6.

Kindred needs to be very damm fed to be able to carry. Otherwise they're just a safeguard so that someone else can carry.

AninLegions777Mar 21, 20174 votes

Same with Kindred. Except you add the fact that they depend HEAVILY on marks. So yeah. You made no point.

hhaavviikkMar 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Basically this. Since graves needs to be in close range to deal damage and his inherent tankiness takes time to build, he needs to be ahead to do well.

but it's even worse for kindred since they rely on the stacks. graves gets behind he loses items and levels kindred gets behind and they lose items, levels and stacks.

DuskDaUmbreonMar 21, 20174 votes

Kindred brings two things to the table that nobody else can: unrivaled potential late-game power (8k stacks one-shots a 999,999 soul Thresh!) and an instant AoE Tryndamere ult. But that's honestly it. Their stats are abysmal, and their kit is kinda…dull. They feel less like the eternal hunters of Lamb and Wolf, and more like one champion that has a weird AoE pet thing that annoys you by marking the WORST possible camp for you at the time.

Plus, you know, hot furry ass. What more reason do you need? ;3

XonraMar 22, 20171 votes

"unrivaled potential late game" well you lied right there out of the gate. I'd rather have Graves and his "lawl you died" damage, over anything Kindred can bring damage wise, even if you LET her stack her passive (which is fairly easy to not let her do if you aren't playing with your nose and no arms).

Also All you have to do with her ult is just pile into it, as you get healed from it the same as anyone else. Then....just kill her, cause she is still kindred. Her ult has become little more than a pause button, and it isn't like Taric, who only does it for his team.

DuskDaUmbreonMar 22, 20171 votes

Yeah. Kindred have a lot of flaws and drawbacks to their kit. Their ult is all but useless (Does counter Zed nicely, though), and the only advantage it has is that it's instant and AoE. Their passive is rarely stacked worth a crap, however (only by fighting braindead opponents have I done well with it recently), but, assuming it is, it becomes the single-most powerful ability in-game. Graves has burst, true, but he has a hard time against some people, especially in late-game (burst if he's squishier, CC and DPS if he's tankier), and will, in almost every single situation, kick Kindred's ass. I'm talking in the theoretical end-game, here, where gold has stopped mattering, because everyone's fully built, Kindred has their uniqueness of their passive. Basically, they're like a Vayne with stealth replaced by utility. So that's something.

But, yeah. The absolute lack of even half-decent tanky stats is one of the biggest drawbacks to them. Maybe if they could survive long enough in a fight to have a chance to get their hunts… :\

The Taco KatMar 21, 20174 votes

Does anyone else really just want old Graves?

I really wish they would just revert him by now. I used to (secondary) main him before his rework, but he doesn't feel "the same," as Riot typically aims to do in reworks. Sure, it gives him an "identity" with his new shotgun, but the rest of the kit is just so broken. I loved old Graves and would still be playing him if he wasn't changed, but they shoved him into a new role entirely with very little of his core identity remaining. He is still a guy who dashes into your face who chunks your health bar, but now he is a bruiser-ADC-tank hybrid, less smooth to play, and also just plain unsatisfying with a clunky shotgun and weird situational damage. True Grit makes him a godly tank now, whereas it would just make him a slightly durable ADC prior.

I don't know if it's me holding onto old champions and reminiscing or what, but I was not satisfied with the Graves rework, and my primary main, Katarina, is likely going to be a bit of a balance problem in the future.

Honestly, if Graves got a revert, I would be ecstatic. He feels like bullshit to face, feels too clunky to enjoy, and has been an issue to balance three times now within two years of the rework.

SmitemuffinMar 21, 20173 votes

Ban graves every game

XonraMar 22, 20172 votes

realize there are still a dozen junglers better than Kindred you can replace in the title of the thread instead of Graves right now

Cloud273Mar 21, 20172 votes

According to champion.gg, both of them (Kindred AND Graves) have about a 50% win rate. I don't think one of them is really better than the other. They both do different things. Graves has a strong early/mid game and is good at snowballing lanes, but if your team is more late game oriented Kindred is probably better.

DJMason88Mar 21, 20173 votes

Graves has a 50% win rate but a 21% play rate. Kindred also has a 50% win rate, but a 3% play rate. Look at more than just the winrate. And once Graves gets full build he is very hard to kill and will deal a lot more damage than Kindred.

XonraMar 22, 20172 votes

Yup, cause if Graves was ONLY played by dedicated mains like Kindred there, his winrate would be something closer to 60%, where if Kindred had the 21% playrate, she would probably drop closer to the low 40s

MaddmazzMar 21, 20172 votes

Why play anything but the top 5-6 junglers if you want to play mainly to win and not puerly for fun?

That goes for all roles other than picking hard counters.

JoeMGMar 21, 20172 votes

As a fellow Kindred main it's really sad how many other junglers just flat out outscale them. I tried Graves once and was sure there was something wrong with the game when my first auto did 20% of red buff's health. That's when I realized why he get played so much. They need to give him lower bases and then maybe they can up the AD scaling. He just gets too many stats for free.

XonraMar 22, 20172 votes

I probably would have just stopped at "Why should I even play Kindred" because that alone is a pretty good question right now.

She is a weak adc with decent clear, not even close to as good damage as, well like you mentioned, Graves, her ganks are kind of subpar right now, and her ult is 99% of her team fighting.

Why WOULD you play Kindred? I wouldn't even just say "when Graves exists" because I would put about 15 junglers ahead of her in solo queue at LEAST, that are also easier to play and need less boat loads of CC when ganking.