I genuinely don't understand how a Karma or a Zyra can out damage a midlaner with only a frostfang or frost queen compared to a fucking rabadons
Why do some supports have so much damage forced onto their kits early game? it's kinda dumb.
3ofGot40ve6 votesFirstly, most champions don't rush rabadons first. because it is pure damage, you normally get it mid/late game after you get some sustain items (morelinomicon, tear, Rod of Ages, etc) A lot of the supports you listed could even be mages themselves, so having a similar amount of AP means that they can dual the mid laner with out an incredibly hard time.
Why do some supports have so much damage forced onto their kits early game? it's kinda dumb.
If you think about it, some supports only have their dmg to push off enemies. Like karma for example, she would have basically no lane presents if you couldn't dish out some Q's everyonce and a while. All she would be doing is shielding her poor adc who is getting out traded because her support cant harass at all.
Volcanuz1 votesThe problem is she can out trade any lane combo and unless it is Naut or Leo she has free reign on the lane for her ADC. Tbh right now Karma supps only put one point in the shield and max her Q because of the scaling and damage out put of her Q is so high you can force anyone out of lane with 1 landed R+Q.
Karma's kit has peel, sustain, damage and if she builds just one item, tank. Which make her one of the better choices when picking a support. Add the fact she can near one shot most supports who aren't a tank support and half health tank supports.. she is a little out of hand.
MisterShameless3 votesKarma is a mage with utility where her niche is early game harass. Just like Jayce and Nidalee, they have Ultimates unlocked at level 1 and dominate early on while sacrificing late game power doing so.
Hibeki1 votesKarma is a mage with utility where her niche is early game harass. Just like Jayce and Nidalee, they have Ultimates unlocked at level 1 and dominate early on while sacrificing late game power doing so.
This meta is such a fucking snowball its rare to even reach lategame. Either you stomp or you get stomped
Volcanuz1 votesThis has nothing to do with the comment i made nor does it with the whole conversation. The thing we are talking about here is how she can dominate due to her early game and the fact she doesn't have to build heavy into AP to deal that damage. She is pretty much broken when put in mid lane or if the ADC lets her just pure damage build as she can carry harder than most AP mids with AP mid items.
The changes were so drastic to her she went from main support to Mage main, and even then she out classes a lot of mages. The only way to beat her is keep moving and hope she doesn't out farm you. So for lower level and even mid level elo players she is a total C word to deal with as just one small slip up can let her snowball out of control.
MisterShameless1 votesMy comment was directed to Hebiki's other comment and for whatever reason was replied to you instead. Not sure how that happened.
MisterShameless1 votesI don't have much time as it is late, so I'll make a quick response. One of the main complaints from Karma mains is that Riot has been bandaiding Karma's issues with over tuned numbers. With the patch 6.6, they have completely fixed Karma's late game weakness with an over power shield. I've made two threads talking about moving power out of the shield and onto her W instead (where she really needs it to work as a support).
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LPQTEAWF-a-power-shift-idea-for-karma
Riot's poor handing of Karma has made her a ball of numbers just to make her viable. This does mean she has a strong early game.
Demonstrated by Redrex7 (one of the best karma's in the world (also sub to their channel (shameless promotion (pun intended ( why am I using so many ()?))))
There have been many posts from Karma mains talking about her issues and how over tuned she is. (SilverSquid, Midnight_Karma, etc)
However, some counter points: -Karma is amazing against melees (where a lot of complaints come from) Ex. Braum, Leona, Wukong, Rengar etc. -Karma is incredible weak against strong pushers/sustainers Ex. Heim, Yasuo, Maplhite, Cho gath, Nasus -Karma is still within balance (49% win rate for sup and mid) -Has no hard cc which makes her suffer a lot when being ganked.
Most importantly, anyone with kills early on will snowball, especially with how the current meta is now so you can't say she is the only champion to snowball out of control with a few kills when there are tons of examples such as 
and so on.
There is a lot more I wanted to add on and explain in more detail, but can't.
Volcanuz1 votesYeah those champs snowball too for sure. But i feel Karma as a range mage, with sustain and escape (not mobility escape), snowballs harder or at least feels harder/quicker. Lux, being one of the only other range mages as you pointed takes well into 100CS plus 1-2 kills before you feel her pain compared and has way more counters compared. And those you mentioned as counters to Karma don't even really play in her lane and that is the problem except Yas.
Overall her entire kit is much better and stronger now, but i think a little too strong. Just look at the math on her empowered Q alone compared to Sona Q+passive. It is night and day.
I really don't want to continue arguing really because it is just stone cold fact she is one of the strongest supports in the right hands but of course the numbers won't show it unless you look at why she is being beat most times. That reason is sustain supports. Sustain seem to be the real reason she is not looking as powerful atm. As the later it gets, like all champs, the stronger they become, this isn't more prevalent with any other in supp role than it is with Karma. Games that go 25+ mins up to 40 min mark show how strong she can be, and this is because this is when she can finally punish a sustain support team by putting out more than they can input for heal/sustain. Of course after that she gets weaker as all mages do. But it is sustain supps which is why she is SO DAMN LOW on winrate, and this could be because in higher ELO sustain helps so much more than damage when the skill level goes up with your allies. Less engages, less chance for ganks and just more time for the sustain to let his/her ADC out farm.
If you look, most of her loses are from sustain supps vs'ing her. Sona, Soraka and janna, all high lose rate supps for her to vs. Then you have displacement and protection up there to as high loss rate supps.
This also looks bad as the player base from 1-15 games played for Karma is so damn high it isn't funny, which alters the winrate a huge amount which means a lot of people are picking her up in high ELO games and not maining her. Which muddies up the winrate massively as she still takes a good amount of skill and time to perfect and time her abilities for supp role (where mid you have more free range to test earlier on) I would say to know exactly how to Karma Supp you would need 30 games minimum so if you were to shave those games off that rate you would see easily a 52% winrate over what we see there.
Right now sustain supps are just in the best spot. Since the Mik and Ardent buffs they have seen a huge leap in popularity and winrate comes with it. Once they finally mess with healing once more (Riot seem to hate healing) we will see Karma rise up for sure.
Hibeki1 votes[{quoted}](name=I Heart Katarina,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uyf2EoHR,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-07-29T02:55:43.058+0000)
Firstly, most champions don't rush rabadons first. because it is pure damage, you normally get it mid/late game after you get some sustain items (morelinomicon, tear, Rod of Ages, etc) A lot of the supports you listed could even be mages themselves, so having a similar amount of AP means that they can dual the mid laner with out an incredibly hard time.
If you think about it, some supports only have their dmg to push off enemies. Like karma for example, she would have basically no lane presents if you couldn't dish out some Q's everyonce and a while. All she would be doing is shielding her poor adc who is getting out traded because her support cant harass at all.
I disagree, I think that doing 40% of an ADC's health with a single R'd Q is totally fucking excessive
Ratbert4 votesWell it is her ult and basically only good damage skill. Pretty sure morg can deal similar damage with her q.
Volcanuz3 votesZyra was never meant to be a support. She became one as her kit worked well and she could poke safely. She wasn't MADE as a support from word go, it was something players tested and it just worked, like annie supp or lux supp. Even Ori supp. They are all still mages in the end.
Karma though.. well she is a different story. The reason her AP ratios are so high is she is MEANT to be making supp items which lack AP but needs AP for her kit to be effective. So when they reworked her they kept the AP ratios up high while also over time making supp items or items in general be stronger for her. Her R+Q combo really does need a little work as it as of now can near one shot a squishy target and while it does that it also slows! So escaping the damage is near impossible.
I swear the change from old to new Karma is zero to two hundred, she was a rather high skill useless support at times to a powerhouse amazing support and mid who can crush most mages mid. She needs some work for sure..
sheldonbunny1 votesEven Ori supp.
Actually Orianna is listed as a secondary support, so they did consider her for the role. They simply expected her mainly played mid.
I disagree, I think that doing 40% of an ADC's health with a single R'd Q is totally fucking excessive
Sona can do the same with just her powered up Q.
Volcanuz1 votesWell 1, sona needs powercords so it is technically a combo plus uses more mana overall because you need more than one spell being done to get that damage. 2, Sona needs AP and other items to achieve that damage early game where Karma can do it at level 3 with only 
. 3, Ori wasn't considered support as secondary on release. They changed that a long time ago when they added the extra role types to the champions a while back.
Back on release Ori was only marked down as Mage and that is it with CC also added next to that.
The shield was actually placed in her kit so she could launch it and her abilities while on an assassin or tank, it was more utility for her damage over shielding. Then they buffed her shield and so on over time.
sheldonbunny1 votesWell 1, sona needs powercords so it is technically a combo plus uses more mana overall because you need more than one spell being done to get that damage. 2, Sona needs AP and other items to achieve that damage early game where Karma can do it at level 3 with only
Back on release Ori was only marked down as Mage and that is it with CC also added next to that.
The shield was actually placed in her kit so she could launch it and her abilities while on an assassin or tank, it was more utility for her damage over shielding. Then they buffed her shield and so on over time.
While I do run AP runes on Sona, i'm doing that damage with same as Karma would. And the tradeoff is I do use multiple spells while Karma waits for her ult to do the max damage on her Q. I've out traded Karma support often enough as Sona. Just depends on agression level and playstyle.
I can't speak before season 3, but since then she was listed with support as her secondary.
Volcanuz1 votesSure, If a Karma or ADC is LETTING you hit her with multiple Q's and auto's you deserve to die as Karma. Any support worth their salt that knows how a sona works can shut her down in seconds by hitting her with Q before she can even activate her own Q. You don't even need empowered Q to hurt her as Sona has a lower base move speed and health if i remember correctly.
sheldonbunny1 votesSure, If a Karma or ADC is LETTING you hit her with multiple Q's and auto's you deserve to die as Karma. Any support worth their salt that knows how a sona works can shut her down in seconds by hitting her with Q before she can even activate her own Q. You don't even need empowered Q to hurt her as Sona has a lower base move speed and health if i remember correctly.
Most definitely. It's a player skill match up. It's less "letting" and more who has a better grasp of their champion, knowledge about the other, and aggression level. At your ranked level i've shut down countless Karmas as AP Sona. Of course i'm also that Sona that outdamages enemy team and most of my team often enough. XD
Besides if enemy support picks before I do and they take Karma, I simply take Zyra and easily counter them.
Volcanuz1 votesYeah i just pick leo and jump on her every time she tries to Q. I punish sona every time she tries to use her spelltheif.
Though sona WAS my main for a long time on my support account. I mean i have her ultimate skin that is how much i loved her, so much i forked over that much just for the skin.
And even with so many games i still struggled against Karma mains as supp or even pick ups. All she has to do is keep the bushes warded or at least one ward, keep the lane frozen (depends on ADC) and sit in the bush and wait for me to screw up. Sure i can just sit back but i don't like to. So most times i end up just getting a coin when i see a karma and let her have bush and push control. Ill just let my jungle know they are ripe then bait them for a kill. Though the fact she can dictate engages or just force out your ADC some times is very aggravating . Sure i can keep him healed up and i do but it tilts the ADC. And that is enough for her to win the lane.
Then you have your ADC ask why you aren't aggressive, as "others sonas are aggressive" and you have to explain why it isn't a good idea.. it just gets very annoying over time.
All they really need to do is scale Karma's Q a little with her ult, normally it is fine but the insane bump with the ult and how much it is up (every 30 or so seconds) makes it very hard to deal with when you are playing most supps or ADC. Even Leo doesn't have that kind of pressure and she is meant to be the queen of pressure, same with Blitz.
sheldonbunny1 votesYeah i just pick leo and jump on her every time she tries to Q. I punish sona every time she tries to use her spelltheif.
Though sona WAS my main for a long time on my support account. I mean i have her ultimate skin that is how much i loved her, so much i forked over that much just for the skin.
And even with so many games i still struggled against Karma mains as supp or even pick ups. All she has to do is keep the bushes warded or at least one ward, keep the lane frozen (depends on ADC) and sit in the bush and wait for me to screw up. Sure i can just sit back but i don't like to. So most times i end up just getting a coin when i see a karma and let her have bush and push control. Ill just let my jungle know they are ripe then bait them for a kill. Though the fact she can dictate engages or just force out your ADC some times is very aggravating . Sure i can keep him healed up and i do but it tilts the ADC. And that is enough for her to win the lane.
Then you have your ADC ask why you aren't aggressive, as "others sonas are aggressive" and you have to explain why it isn't a good idea.. it just gets very annoying over time.
All they really need to do is scale Karma's Q a little with her ult, normally it is fine but the insane bump with the ult and how much it is up (every 30 or so seconds) makes it very hard to deal with when you are playing most supps or ADC. Even Leo doesn't have that kind of pressure and she is meant to be the queen of pressure, same with Blitz.
Honestly i've played Sona enough to learn to deal with the entire roster of supports. Blitz used to stress me out so much, now it's rare to feel very threatened by one. More often it's my marksman getting hooked and me wanting to facepalm and instead trying to bail them out. Leo isn't overly difficult with Sona. You need to watch your positioning and bait out her E, same as baiting out a Blitz hook. After that it's not too much trouble to poke. Nami also was always an easy deterrent when I was up against a Leona.
The problem with your suggestion is she's also a mid, top, and even the more rare jungler. You can't take away damage from Karma support without hurting her in other roles. Basically it's the Lulu problem all over again. AP supports exist to be lane bullies. Karma is one of the current strong ones is all.
Volcanuz1 votesYeah pretty much. Baiting and faking out are very important jobs of supps. Forcing the enemy to waste mana is a must. Problem is if they know their skills so well and they catch you out on it. Like i know when a sona is faking me out over when she isn't. The longer she goes without procing her spelltheif the more likely she isn't faking you out. And even if she does i just sit back and wait until my E is off CD. Or i focus the ADC who thinks im going for their supp after the 2nd try and fail.
The whole game is a a series of fake outs and actual engages, it is like art really but we just don't sit back and enjoy it enough :D
CerealBoxOfDoom2 votesbecause supports are strong early and adcs are designed to be weaker early
DeathBurst2 votesThey don't out-damage a Mid with Rabadon when they only have a Frostfang, that's not true.
They may out-damage a Mid with Doran and one mid-tier component when they only have Frostfang, though. It's related to the fact that you KNOW you won't get much gold as a Support, and that you will be under-leveled, so the champions played there tend to be champions with a good early game and good base values but poor scalings. So yes, they can out-damage the Mid laners who target the mid/late-game and have great scalings, but poorer early game to compensate.
It's not dumb, it's quite logical, actually.
Mistress Shyvana1 votesThe gradual damage creep from wanting shorter more explosive games coupled with better support items means that the little extra early game damage that was there is boosted to oppressive levels
Depárt1 votesWhy do some supports have so much damage forced onto their kits early game? it's kinda dumb.
COUGH BRAUM COUGH
Erockandroll1 votesSimple answer, Zyra is, and always meant to be an APC. (people already established this)
And Karma, because she get's her ult at level one.
And yes, some of these champs are designed to be early game bullies. (Also, if were talking wood tier, chances are, your APC is having trouble with there CS, if they continue to be behind the support.)
Dominick Destine1 votesSupports tend to do AoE damage.
In general, bot lane is the lane that exchanges the most damage and it tends to target two champions.
Mid lane is the safest of all lanes.
It makes sense that supports will tend to have similar or sometimes even higher overall damage done in "Damage done to champion" bar at the end of the game, especially for short matches.
Pew Pew Lasers1 votesSupports do more damage early because they have similar base damages.
BUT
Supports are focused on poking champs not farming minions like everyone else during laning phase. Further more frostfang almost doubles mana regen meaning they can fire skills off 2x more than someone who built Rab which skills unlikely scales 100% adding very little to base damages.
Cant believe I needed to explain that.
Maximum Morde1 votesTwo targets to hit with spells aoe instead of one.
Items aren't in play so the gold advantage of mid hasn't pulled them ahead item wise yet.
Mid focuses on CS while support focuses on pressure and fighting.
Meep Man1 votesIt is because Supports generally aren't allowed to build as much AP, so their base damage is usually higher. Also, Zyra can be played in roles other than Support, so she's more like a Middle Lane coming to Bottom Lane.
grug1 votesI thought most supports were originally designed as high damage mages before some genius decided to use their insane utilities as support lane thus freeing the midlane whatever for another damage mage guy