@Anyone on Riot's Design Team: Can we please talk about Karma?

Koechophe··22 votes·1,341 views

One thing that has been consistent with Karma is that she is barely ever used and always rests comfortably below a 50% win ratio. She's been consistently buffed (read her patch notes) and yet, she never really approaches that stage where people pick her comfortably and where she's an entity in pro play, beyond just a very niche one-time deal. She's had stints as mid, top, jungle and support, and hasn't landed anywhere comfortably, and every time riot throws buffs in her direction, it feels a bit like compensation, instead of actually trying to make her a strong character.

At the end of the day, Karma has a lot of fundamental issues that really need to be addressed, because she's not really in a good state. She feels lackluster at best, and always misplaced no matter where you take her. I'm just going to discuss major problems, and hopefully we can get a good discussion going about what needs to be done to bring a little bit more Karma in the league.

1) Her kit doesn't bring anything unique to the table. It's sad, but true. In terms of CC, she has a slow and a decently hard to access snare, nothing too impressive there. In terms of damage, she has 1 damage spell that hurts, but isn't enough to really draw out a lot of kill potential. In terms of utility, she has a speedboost and a shield, which, again, nothing special. She doesn't have a huge, impactful moment anywhere in her kit, nor does she have anything that would make you look twice. Look at thresh, who brings his lanturn, his pull/flay combo and his box, all of which feel super rewarding and have clearly defined strength, or Janna with her godly disengage, or her shield that also gives AD, or her w/q combo to lockdown targets, and she feels a little meh as a support. But it's the same in mid. Lux, with her huge burst and pick potential while bringing an aoe shield of her own, or Ahri with her huge mobility and assassination capacity, or Xerath with his range, and again, meh. Same with top and jungle. There's just nothing on her kit that screams "Unique" or "amazing". Her mantra interaction is cool, but it empowers objectively generic skills, and they stay generic.

2) She is good at everything and lacks any weaknesses. This is probably the biggest issue. She has great mobility and can get away from almost any pursuit if she plays it well enough. She has good range, she has good waveclear, she has good sustain, she has good poke, she has good tankiness, she has good utility, she's not particularly mana hungry, she has good CC and she has good disengage. There is really no weak spot in her kit. She's not vulnerable to assassinations, because her shield/mantra E can keep her alive amazingly. She's not vulnerable to poke because she can dodge and absorb with her E as well as dish back good poke of her own. She doesn't have a problem waveclearing, nor does she have a problem clearing jungle camps, even. There really isn't a weak spot in her kit anywhere. But this doesn't make her OP; on the contrary, because she's good at everything and has no real weakness, she's not allowed to be strong, because then she'd be toxic.

3) Her ult is not impactful Back when you remade her, you guys said that you wanted her R to feel like "mini ultimates", instead of being "necessary additions to her skills". Well, here we are, and it still doesn't feel even remotely like an ult. It feels like a necessary addition to her skills.

Take her W, for example. Without the mantra component, it would be one of the weakest skills in the game, if not the weakest. It has low base damage, takes 2 seconds to grant only a 1 second snare at first level (scaling up to only a 2 second snare), has a whopping 12 second CD on it (which is only after you guys buffed it) and has such a short leash that if the enemy champ has any sort of dash (which is an increasing number of people) or even just more movespeed than you, they walk right out. Her Q could pass for a basic ability, but a very bland one at that. And her E is a whopping 200 hp shield and grants a 1.5 second movespeed boost; significantly weaker than almost any other shield in the game (Orianna, Lux, Morgana, Janna, Even lulu, all have better shields than her.)

And her ult itself doesn't feel like a real ult. The fact that it augments basic abilities cleverly hides the fact that it is numerically terrible; the additions themselves are worse than most basic abilities, let alone ultimates. Her Q addition does 25 - 75 damage and then creates a zone that you can walk out of for 50 - 300 damage. Not even remotely an ult. Her W gives a net 40% missing health and 1.75 second snare. Sounds powerful, but without any added damage and due to the single target nature, as well as the selfish nature of the heal, not too impactful and defintely not an ult. And her E gives a ~200 hp shield and a movespeed boost. This is the most powerful-feeling of the three, but again, not an ult.

Added to that, it feels like she just doesn't have a passive; instead she has a necessary addition to her ult that should've just been there to begin with.

4) She needs almost every stat in order to be optimized. The only thing that isn't actually necessary on Karma's kit is AD, APen and maybe Hp regen. She needs AP, because a lot of her power is actually in scaling, not high base damages. She needs Mpen to stay viable in damage, and she needs MPregen because without it, she runs out rather quickly. She DESPERATELY needs CDR because she has objectively high cooldowns and because it's the only way to make her mantra work effectively. She needs health badly, or else the mantra W is useless, and a lot of her power budget is spent on that skill. She needs Armor and MR in order for her shield to be effective on herself, but also because if not, hp burn kills her quickly (not necessary, but she feels mostly weak without them). At the very least, then, she NEEDS Ap, apen, cdr, mpregen and health, making her extremely item dependant.

This is problematic especially for support, because supports are supposed to be able to function without a lot of stats, but also for every role. What you're supposed to build gets easily confused, and she quickly becomes unable to keep up with champions who only need 2 or 3 stats to work well. I think the fact that she needs every stat is mostly a symptom of her being a low-weakness generalist, but it still raises a big issue.

Here are a few possible solutions:

  1. Decide what role she is and balance around that. I know you guys don't like to force people into certain roles, but trying to keep her viable both solo lane and support has created generalist-syndrome that makes it hard for her to be effective.
  2. Make her W a flat amount that scales based on missing health and AP (ala lissandra ult), so that she doesn't need health to be effective. Please, this would help a lot.
  3. Give her ult a longer cooldown so that you can make it more powerful. It really feels meh at the moment, It'd be a lot better if it was a bit stronger.
  4. Give her defined weaknesses. She has good engage, disengage, sustain, poke, waveclear, pick potential, etc. Something's got to give. Weaken one area so she can shine in the others. Give her an identity other than "can do everything", because it just translates to "excells at nothing". You're always talking about how each champion needs their own unique role, that applies to Karma more than anyone else.

Tl;DR Despite her rework, Karma still continues to be underutilized and lackluster, always below the 50% win mark and barely ever picked. She needs to be more than just a generalist; she needs a solid, strong place in the league.

Please upvote and bump if you agree. if not, kindly give a reason, so we can facilitate a good discussion.

29 Comments

Erytroxylin8 votes

Mantra W change - she splits the damage she takes with the tethered enemy 50/50. Boom it's a gg get rekt ult.

A Miss Fortune3 votes

That would be very interesting and actually fit with her theme but wouldn't that be a bit toxic? Even if it is I think that could be a great change to Karma and buff not only her Support but her Carry role too.

Erytroxylin1 votes

Would be fairly strong, but the tether only lasts 2 seconds. I can wrap my head around the numbers, but is it practical? I'm not sure and would have to see it actually in game to judge whether it was strong or broken.

Lady Hammerlock1 votes

LOL JUST IMAGINE A VEIGAR ULT LOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

PokladnicaZla5 votes

I have an idea for her E ( if she were to be balanced around being a support:

Normal cast E : Shield ally (stronger shield / MS boost removed) Mantra + E : Applies AoE shields like now,but works like a protective monk's shield (as I remeber Morello mentioned),heals ally for X+%(scaling with AP) damage taken in the end of the shields duration 4 sec.

W: Ally cast: Gives Karma and ally MS boost for 5sec or until the teather is broken by moving out of range. Enemy cast: Teathers to the enemy unit reducing his damage,after being teathered for a short duration snares him and still has damage removed. Mantra+ W :Ally cast: doubles the MS boost and increases the duration. Enemy: Doubles the damage reduction and increases the snare duration. Q: Stays the same Mantra+Q:The Same (Maybeincrease base damage and CD,but reduce scaling)

R: Now charges for 1.25 sec before it can be combined with other abilities.

Gathering fire: NEW Karma gains 1 stack of gathering fire every time she gets an assist, 0.5 for kills on enemy structures,champions or epic monsters. STACKS 5 : 20 AP 10 : 25P 15 : Additional Mantra charge. 20 : 30AP 25 : 35AP 30 : Spell reduce Mantras CD depending on how many champions(allies or enemies) she has casted them. 35 : 10% AP Each further 5 stacks give her 10 AP.

Numbers need balacing,but I hope you get the idea.

deJasper362 votes

Avarage boards player: but she has such a overloaded kit pls riot i am leaving this game. You cant make one good champion.

I personaly think she should be more of a midlaner and lulu more of a supp bevouse now they almost do the same thing in the same roles.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

That's true that Lulu and Karma has a similar role,but also (as you already have stated) Lulu leans more into utility (more hard CC and CC in general),while Karma has more damage and dueling potential.

The hardest part is to decide if Karma should be a midlaner or a support. Pre-rework Karma was a primary supp,who could be played more as a sololaner because of her huge burst/teamfight changers while low on HP and AP builds.The new Karma leans more of a mid laner with support capabilities,but still does better in solol lanes.

I would like her to be a support,since the champions that are tagged as primary support is the lowest roster in the game. You aren't really fond of my idea?

The Loveless2 votes

I miss the two mantra stacks.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uwgqQb32,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-09-04T22:50:24.123+0000)

I miss the two mantra stacks. Everybody does. ;(

Trylobyte5 votes

There are two major components of Old Karma's kit I wouldn't mind seeing again... Perhaps these would help give her a distinct identity?

  1. Double Mantra. She used to have two of them and could use them both back to back if she wanted, but then it was twice the wait time. You want to talk about impact, how about RQ into RQ for a ton of damage, or RWRQ for a burst and a snare? That felt more like an ultimate. If Riot has an issue with this, and I imagine they would, extend the cooldown on Mantra - It's now more impactful when it's up but you need to manage your uses carefully because once they go down they'll take a while to come back!

  2. Unusual power curve. Put simply, Old Karma was very karmic - The more you hurt her the stronger she got, and she was most dangerous at low health. This would be easy enough to represent in the same way old Karma worked, giving her passive a condition such that, say, she does an extra 2.5% damage for every missing 5% health. This wouldn't mean much if she's staying healthy, but if she's almost dead she's hitting, healing, and shielding almost 50% more!

IxtaliKing1 votes

Either one of these suggestions would do wonders for her, I wish Meddler would take a look at this.

SouL1ess4 votes

Despite her rework, Karma still continues to be underutilized and lackluster, always below the 50% win mark and barely ever picked. She needs to be more than just a generalist; she needs a solid, strong place in the league.

She used to have a distinct champion kit though. It was powerful when the situation favours her; just like how every champion should have been.

But I guess that's what Reworks are for.

Koechophe7 votes

I appreciate the sentiment, but I would rather not turn this into a "Revert Karma's rework" thread. Those are too plentiful, and we all know it's not going to happen. I would much rather discuss solutions to her that Riot would actually be willing to do.

Voluug131 votes

Those threads where pleniful years ago. Not anymore.

I think looking at Old karma's kit can help with this. It wasnt the passive that made that kit powerful, it was the game's strongest shield and the game's best team haste with awesome ratios and a kit that flowed extremely well and was very adaptable, with glaring weaknesses. That alone was several time more succesful in pro play that Scarma's, anyways. That says something.

What does this kit have? Basically a lot of what Old Karma had but watered down. Which wont work because Scarma is a master of none (she has) where Karma was a Master of Everything (she had).

There is also the problem with Scarma that she is an extremely binary champion with most of her numbers frontloaded into Q because counterplay for assassins. Imagine of Q was the utility low damage skill and she had Karma's Soul Shield. She could easily be THE best anti assassin champion while having defined weaknesses.

Karma's mantra was also better before - because her kit was supposed to be impactful as a whole, not a single ''flashy'' ability, as it allowed to confront the same situation in different ways. Scarma's mantra as a whole is less fluid - its options are extremely niche and delimited to a couple of uses, with most of her utility/defensive numbers kept low in exchange of a frontloaded RQ.

Overall, Scarma's kit has hope. It needs definition, because currently its a subpar AP Lee Sin that accomplishes little due to being a master none.

What I could do is bring back Karma's Mantra charges, nerf a little the passive, reduce the range on Q, reduce numbers on RQ, and bring back Karma's Soul Shield with all her anti burst glory. That defines her a defensive/anti assassin Midlaner that is noticeably weak to range, jungle pressure and sustain. And a fluid support that excells at disengage and counter-engaging - weak to poke and sustain but good at dealing with high CC/Burst/Engage lanes.

Then again a champion like this is what Riot hates because it interferes with their LC$PLAY$ vision of what the game should be. The less anti-mobility, anti-all-in, anti-assassination is viable in the game, the better.

Hupsis2 votes

Good post. I consider myself a Karma main and agree that she does have very few weaknesses and ult being strong is too dependent on her utilizing her passive to the fullest. I don't think increasing the cd on mantra is the right way to make changes to her though. She also relies on being able to cast her current mini ulties often.

what I think would make her ult feel more impactful would be to have mantra charge up during the 8 seconds it is active after pressing R. So activating mantra and instantly casting a spell reactively makes a weaker spell and waiting for a while increases the effectiveness of the spell. Enemies would know she's about to cast a devastating spell if she has had mantra active for a long time. It also means that karma has to carefully plan ahead how she should use mantra. Charging it up alarms the enemies but casting an instant mantra spell isn't going to be that strong.

Koechophe2 votes

I actually like the idea, it's not a defined weakness, but it's a step in the right direction. I do think that the fact that Karma is so reliant on her ult CD being low is one of the reasons why it's not allowed to be strong. If it was both impactful AND had a low CD, it would be broken.

Hupsis3 votes

Instant mantra casts could be weaker than current in game mantra spells and fully charged mantra spells (5 sec charge time) would be stronger.

Example: instant cast r+e = 60% aoe speed for 1 sec + 70% strength of current r shield charged up r+e = 60% aoe speed for 3 sec + 150% strength of current r shield

or something along those lines...

Abyssphere2 votes

You really hit the nail on the head, her current kit is not only able to do enough things that it's difficult to balance but it also does enough things that nothing she has feels satisfying.

Problem is you're asking for a proper rework here. How do you focus her strengths without just getting rid of one of her skills?

WookieJesuz2 votes

They should make karma especially strong at one thing, then have a clear weakness rather than being mediocre at everything.

DrNova2 votes

Am I the only one who likes Karma?

deJasper361 votes

You probobly have never used mantra q and got a instant triple after you died. And she is my highest skill mastery.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I like Karma, I used to play her a lot but recently I feel like I don't know what to do with her :/. I think she's better mid than support since she needs gold to be useful. I agree she should be pushed more in a particular direction rather than being so much of a generalist. I'm biased toward mid lane mages but I wouldn't mind her becoming a stronger support as long she could still go mid. Maybe we'll see some changes in the pre season (I hope).

The Loveless1 votes

She's good but she can't stop enemies (namely ranged) from using actions after her wind-up snare. Most mids are good/picked when they get that instant hard cc.

She can't be too good just to get her more play. She has the same problem as melee carries in that it's bad design if you design them to auto-win in certain situations (for them, it's getting in melee range and cg)

godbuu1 votes

Apparently I'm in the minority of Karma players today but I quite like her latest incarnation. I really wanted to like her original version but her numbers felt way too low to be impactful, as well as being just plain awkward to use.

First off, as for this every stat thing, well, that applies to every mage (except those bastard resourceless ones). You need regen to cast, ap to damage and cdr to multiply it. This isn't any different.

As for mantra not feeling like an ultimate, have you looked at the numbers? At level 16, a mantra'd Q does 435+0.9ap and leaves a slow zone that does 350+0.6ap. Just for comparison, Annie's ult does 425 + 0.8ap. Of course Tibbers does aoe damage and is a stun but Soulflare has something close to a 20 second cd vs 60ish on the bear. Soulflare also has a 50% longer range to hit a target.

I suppose karma's identity is a little vague at the moment but personally I enjoy playing her as a kind of jack of all trades ap bruiser, sort of like solo lane lulu. As people have pointed out, she shields her own team, speeds them up, wave clears, blows up targets, etc.

Double Mantras would be cool, especially if they worked on the same system as the smite charges do now, but might be slightly broken, especially with cdr and so on.

To me the only change I'd really like to see is making her W not suck ass. Right now it feels like far and away the weakest skill and I never mantra it. I think a cool tweak would be to invert the mechanics, in otherwords, instead of snaring people if they stay with in range of it for X seconds (exactly like all the other leash spells) make it stun/snare if the victim gets too far away. This would at least be different, as well as probably much more powerful and maybe could shift her role into more of a front line bruiser style mage.

Perhaps then you could bring back the aoe damage on her shield.

Koechophe1 votes

Ty for such a detailed post, I just want to touch on a few points.

Yes, most mages need APen and AP, but almost none are as reliant on CDR as she as, as well as an unhealthy reliance on health and a small reliance on mr/armor. The biggest issue imho is the CDR and health necessity, especially since she's supposed to be a support. I really think that lower CDs on her W and E as well as W healing flat amounts based on missing health instead of a % of her HP could fix these issues.

The problem with your analysis of the ult is that you fail to realize she's using an ult AND a basic ability every time she pops R. If annie pops her ult and her W it's a net damage of 505 + 120% of ap (you're garunteed 2 stacks of the burn damage if use the stun) + 250 + 85% of her ap, for a net of 755 + 205% ap, all of which cannot be avoided. Take any other mage's ult + one basic ability and you'll see much larger net damage. The ult looks great on paper, but when you factor that it requires you to burn two abilities for a net effect of one ability, it isn't that brilliant.

You may like jack of all trades, but in my opinion (and many other people's) it leaves her feeling undefined, lacking clear strengths and weaknesses. Other champions who can do most things well still manage to feel stronger than her. Look at lee, who has the same sort of "no weaknesses" mentality, but has huge high points and skill caps. Or Lulu, who again has those moments of "i did something huge there" with her ult and her W especially, but even her E and Q combo to a lesser extent. Even if you land Karma's Q + Ult for max damage, it still feels like you can't follow it up in any meaningful way, and her W is sorely lacking in impact for all the effort it takes.

I can appreciate that you like the way she is right now, but I think that she has the potential to feel a lot better as a character. For being the enlightened one, she sure seems to have a lot of confusion of what her role is.

Audiomancy1 votes

I actually like New Karma's kit thematically. She's a paragon of balance, and her abilities definitely give her a "jack of all trades, master of none" feel - not too strong in any particular area, but with no true weaknesses either. Poke, peel, damage mitigation; Karma can do it all, but others can do some things far better.

The one thing I liked about old Karma though (besides her %Missing HP Heal. rito pls) was the fact that her passive fit her name. Karma. What goes around comes around. The more damage she took, the more she would deal. And while I do believe that that fits a berserker (helloOlaf ) more than it does "the Enlightened One", it was still a pretty neat idea. The proposed changes that were on the PBE for her a few months ago were good as well I think (returning a % of ally damage on a target as HP), but it would be difficult to balance that in a way that makes Mid and Support Karma viable without being too strong.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

I agree with this post too much.

Ionian StarChild1 votes

I still don't see any reason why they had to take away the damage portion of her shield let alone the damage amplifier on her leash. I thought that helped to scare off enemies from retaliating when she tries to snare them. Now I find myself to always putting myself at risk when I would try to land the snare. There needs to be a secondary incentive (offense-wise) to make us want to mantra that ability more. Since it's more of a utility based spell maybe have it apply a damage reduction debuff on the target so that not only does it boost her support capabilities but also her dueling potential.

I think her main issues at the moment, as you stated, is that she needs so many stats in order to function and the lack of an actual passive. Old Karma was innately tanky thanks to her old passive and kit (less health meant greater heals and shields). That and her old stats made her even more tankier than current Karma. That didn't mean she didn't still need to boost her defense. In fact, I think this was one of the issues fans brought up when the rework was being suggested and riot posted in the forums on how people would want her to be reworked. The sad thing is that it seemed like it was ignored since this is still an issue but more obvious now with how super squishy she is.

I don't know what they'll come up with for Karma but I sure hope it's something relating to these three specific feats of hers; her snare, stats, and passive.

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