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"Our intention isn't just a wholesale nerfing of mages"

Koechophe··193 votes·7,818 views

... that being said, we're nerfing every single AP item, buffing spirit visage and banshee's veil with massively increased stats, adding more power to AD Itemization and nerfing armor items.

Seriously riot?

The rationale behind this is "we came to the conclusion that ability power was just far more efficient as a stat purchase for mages in relation to their AD brethren" which also makes no sense. AP and AD ratios differ immensely, considering that EVERY SINGLE MARKSMAN chas access to a 2.5 AD ratio on hit, (and most have access to even more, look at Draven who can pump his all the way up to 3.0, or jinx, etc). OBVIOUSLY AP will be cheaper to build, the average AP ratio hovers around .6 - .7.

I just can't wrap my head around the sheer lack of understanding that comes from the statement that "AP items are more efficient than AD ones. If they had said "AP champions are edging out AD champions" or "We're nerfing AP items because AD items are taking a hit as well," I'd be fine. But their logic is nonsensical. It's like them nerfing Health regen items because they are "more efficient" than mana regen. I likewise can't wrap my head around the fact that somehow, riot thinks this ISNT going to shove ad dominance to a whole new level (where it's already been something of an issue this season). Honestly, I'm at a loss. I know the designers are smart, I have no idea why they'd give such a stupid explanation that makes absolutely no sense.

*EDIT: While I appreciate the discussion, the main point of the thread (that being riot's shoddy explanation for the obvious nerfs to ap champs) has largely been unadressed.

188 Comments

Ch0c0lateJesus53 votes

Do they even understand their own game?

Mage damage comes from their spells, spells have cooldowns, so mages will only get one or two rotations off in a fight.

Late game ADCs can right click and do 1000 damage autos at 2 per second till the end of time. Late game mages fall off because targets begin to survive their burst, and they cant output the same kind of sustained damage.

Silents4294 votes

Okay what late game mage can't burst a late game ADC?

Pikmints15 votes

I think what he's getting at is how the buffs across marksmen and nerfs to mages makes it so that their burst is comparable mid-late game, except marksmen can dish out damage via their near-unmissable, spammable, ranged, able to crit, resourceless autos. Mages will have less ap this season, and because of the price increases they'll get that reduced ap at a slower rate. It's possible that at full build mages will have more burst than marksmen, but the limitations put on mages will make them a far less attractive choice.

Wouldn't be caught off guard if people were surprised this season by Malzahars that build AP.

Stellafreyja16 votes

Of course AP items are going to be more efficient than AD items. When Mages are out of spells or mana, they're screwed. Any AD champion can still rely on their auto attacks to deal tons of damage if they're out of spells or mana.

Koechophe8 votes

Not to mention, ADCs can still wind up doing comprable spell damage to AP casters somehow (love seeing varus mid chunk half of my HP down with a single Q), which is just flat out ridiculous. Ad carries have HUGE end game damage, they should have some sort of early game drawback for this. But no, AD champs can stand toe to toe with most mid and top laners easily, by sheer virtue of them having good base damages on spells as well as reliable ranged harass on every auto.

Anidan4 votes

Normally I don't chime in on this, but.. Most of the AD Carries (the archetype you're mostly complaining about) that can stand toe to toe to a mage and maybe win the lane fall off later in the game. Yeah, Varus has his Q, but that's also where a lot of his damage budget is, not dissimilar to Nidalee's Spear - but with less follow-up power.

And look at a lot of the middle lane roster: you have utility champions that will still nearly kill the shit out of an ADC if they try anything funny (Orianna, Lissandra, Lux, Lulu Kayle ), you have people with huge lane control power (Malzahar Azir TwistedFate), you have champions with enormous burst (Annie Veigar Leblanc), durable champions with high sustain that most ADCs can't force to do anything (Chogath Swain Vladimir ), and you have straight-up assassins which are meant to kill both squishy ADs and squishy APs (Fizz Zed Talon Akali)

That's not even counting mid laners that'll likely contribute more to a teamfight even if they do lose the lane. Middle lane is not a friendly place for most ADCs, and the ADCs that can go there and find some success are able to do so because they can fulfill a similar niche as a mage of some kind (namely poke/CC in Varus' case, reminiscent of Xerath). And woe be just about every ADC that wants to go top with its array of anti-ADC gadgetry.

Plus mage champions have had, for a very long time, objectively the best item selection from any role in the game, and that was even before their AP itemization rework, which I think everyone has conveniently forgotten about among all the new toys for AD champions. Their power may not be where it should, I don't know. But you can't look at the most stale role in the game nigh on years and complain that they finally get diversity that other roles have had for about as long as ADCs have been stale.

Most of the ADCs that have high early-game damage do pay for it later in the game. Varus has high early damage, but later he has no reliable AA steroid so his damage falls off - especially if he can't access it via kills or assists. Same for Corki - no reliable AA steroid besides the 10% damage on his passive. That's how they pay for their power - it's locked up behind their abilities, not just their AAs. Say what you will about ADCs like Varus not falling off, but his sustained AA damage is distinctly lacking compared to other ADCs designed more for the late-game.

Koechophe10 votes

I'm sorry, but the statement that ANY adc has damage fall off late game is simply ludicrious. Yes, some do more damage late game than others, but damage is never lacking in comparison to MAGES end game.

Varus goes mid into someone like malz, varus will have superior damage all game long. Same can be said of a lot of mid lane matchups. So now, the only reason people pick mid lane champs is if their damage is just stupid broken (see Azir and Viktor and Viegar in competative play) or if they have nasty good zone control through CC and utility (See anivia and Lulu). Mages bring other things to the table besides damage, but unfortunately, so do ADCs, often in just as large of quantity as mages.

You're looking for CC or good engage? Ashe. You're looking for AOE power? Miss fortune. You're looking for siege? Cait and trist. You're looking for damage? Literally every adc.

The only thing mids can have going for them is utility, but not a whole lot of mid lane champs actually have that as a focus. Assassins are great in theory, but with PD gutting them pretty badly (12% damage reduction is massive) and then the overlord forcing an additional 12% into bleed damage, and then the new mastery supports take that forces an additional 8% into the support instead of the adc, and then the mercial scimitar getting buffed to the moon, mage assassins are going to become a thing of the past. As a result of all of this, most of the mages end up severely outclassed

Xanes2 votes

You do realise, that in S5 mages outdamaged ADC's as a whole? Both in SoloQ and in the LCS, midlaners (and especially mages) did more damage than ADC's on average per game. So no, utility isn't the only thing mid lane champs have going for them.

CaptnJakSparrow10 votes

{quoted}

You do realise, that in S5 mages outdamaged ADC's as a whole? Both in SoloQ and in the LCS, midlaners (and especially mages) did more damage than ADC's on average per game. So no, utility isn't the only thing mid lane champs have going for them.

This is largely because adcs in lcs just afk farmed for 30 minutes and did nothing else. Their opponent was a top laner solo that just flat out gave up turret in 5 minutes.

Psi217 votes

It is all Riot's plan to get rid of burst champs. Some where in their back a'' stupid dev minds they think the players all like their mindlessly clashing heads in an all out melee fight of tanky dps.

  1. Got rid of DFG.. introduce ludens.... a few patches later nerfed ludens
  2. Nerfed mages in a round they called buffs (Removed Ahri's 20% damage on charm and buffed the damage in 5.2 only to remove that damage in 5.3. Kass nerfed in 5.3. Annie passive nerfed in 5.2. And lets not forget the non-targeted Viegar Q and terrible changes. the list goes on...)
  3. The reduction to mana regen. globally to Summoner Rift
  4. The removal of mana potions but lets keep those hp regen pots for the beloved tankie dps.
  5. AP item increases across the board
  6. MR items buffed
  7. New HP items introduced to the game everywhere

RIOT DEV TEAM IS THE WORST.

They aren't even following the DOTA model they came from!!!

Burst champs are supposes to be in the game. But not in the form of oh I am smurf KAT and let me AOE this newbie team to death with refreshes. Or their statement we hate burst mages lets nerf them all and make Ekko.

Serious Riot you are killing your game.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

I'd say it's more against mages than burst champions; yasou & ekko can still 3 shot tanks despite just being one item ahead. But I agree it's disheartening they're double standards are screwing over the game.

Leonerdo5 votes

I doubt they would make changes as broad as these to AP items without a really good reason. But yeah, our only insight into that reason is "We think AP items were too efficient." To me, this seems like a topic that would be excellent for a whole design-blog. Compared to that, this one line is a joke of an explanation.

7ha7guy7774 votes

Actually, RoA got buffed. 60 ap => 80 ap 2700g => 3000g Cost of 20 ap = 435g Cost increase 300g Gold gen also increased Minions also spawn 15 seconds earlier

WotA got a cost reduction

Gunblade is now good for champions that use pets/summons

Most items got cost increases though. There's also deathfire touch giving certain mages an additional 3 + 36% ap scaling on their 4 second duration DoTs.

Koechophe45 votes

Too bad that Deathfire touch also has a bonus ad ratio that's more than double the ap ratio.

Too bad that ADCS now heal for 15% of damage done on crits

Too bad that ADCs now negate 12% of the damage done to them through phantom dancer (because that's balanced)

Yeah, these changes do not favor mages.

JustMyBassCannon8 votes

{quoted}

Too bad that Deathfire touch also has a bonus ad ratio that's more than double the ap ratio.

Oh, wow, the bonus AD ratio scales higher than the AP ratio. It's almost as if they expect you to get AP a lot easier than AD because it costs about half as much. Never mind that they actually nerfed B.F. Sword and pretty much anything connected to it.

Too bad that ADCS now heal for 15% of damage done on crits

Yeah, that early-game Crit is such a popular build...on no one except Yasuo. Who won't even want Crit Runes, now that Crit percentages are less screwy.

Too bad that ADCs now negate 12% of the damage done to them through phantom dancer (because that's balanced)

On one person at a time. People complain about that 12% DR, ignoring that it specifically applies to 1v1.

Yeah, these changes do not favor mages.

No, but they didn't say that these changes were meant to favor mages. Mages have already had amazing itemization for the longest time. They don't need help.

Marksmen have been the most stale role for five years.

Kuroi866 votes

Pretty much all this and then some.

AD is down, especially late game.
% pen is down. Borks % health is lowered.

ADC are getting some awesome tools and some much needed item diversity. They are paying for it in damage though. Crits now feel less bursty, while high crit chance builds make for more stable dps.

Xonra3 votes

{quoted}

They are paying for it in damage though.

Where?

  • They are all getting a base +5 AD added to their kits
  • Crit was either buffed or added to almost all of their itemization, plus some items that didn't have crit, were changed to give more or any crit
  • While it isn't directly damage, they got a lot of buffs to lifesteal overall

It might look like their "raw AD" went down, but realistically, AD (specifically marksman) got a very large buff across the board, early, and especially late game.

item 3153 getting nerfed hurt really not much, as you will still be doing more damage through more crit chance, plus Lord Dominik's Regards (+15% damage against champions with greater max health than you, and another 1.5% extra for every 50 health difference) which is going to be most of the enemy team.

Armor pen is actually far easier to stack, but it is on bonus, and not just flat pen.

They honestly aren't paying for it in anything for what they are getting. With nearly every item having even more crit chance, life steal, doing extra damage in % instead of flat AD, and so on...I have no idea what you are on about saying they will have less AD or damage at all, ESPECIALLY late game.

Kuroi862 votes

Where?

>They are all getting a base +5 AD added to their kits

And losing AD per lvl equaling to 10 less AD at lvl 18, and that is the least, not the highest AD nerf on a marksman.

Crit was either buffed or added to almost all of their itemization, plus some items that didn't have crit, were changed to give more or any crit

Yay, more crit, means more crits, which means item 3143

It might look like their "raw AD" went down, but realistically, AD (specifically marksman) got a very large buff across the board, early, and especially late game.

Wrong, AD per lvl went down and AD on items went down, Marksmen in general are looking at having around 60 less AD late game.

plus Lord Dominik's Regards

The nerf to % pen not only makes nearly half of a tanks armor immune to the item late game (between 70-90 base Ar late game). That bonus damage is still affected by Ar. Aka with 100 effective armor you still cut that damage in half.

Armor pen is actually far easier to stack, but it is on bonus, and not just flat pen.

Which is probably a bigger buff for tanks than Cinderhulk was.

I have no idea what you are on about saying they will have less AD or damage at all, ESPECIALLY late game.

More reliable DPS which is more easily blocked now due to more reliance on Crit and the nerf to % pen.

Koechophe24 votes

  1. It costs 35 gold per attack damage. It costs 21.75 gold per ability power. AD is aproximately 30% more expensive than AP based on those statistics. The differential between the AD ratio and the AP ratio for deathfire is 250%. By raw calculatons, this favors AD builds. But at the very least, it isn't a distinct advantage for AP; ad users can take full advantage of deathfire relatively easly.

  2. Early crit builds are insanely popular: most every ADC that isn't vayne or kalista rushes infinity edge. When preseason hits, crit is on literally every item that one would even consider rushing, so ADCs get massive amounts of free sustain that isn't tied to a mana cost and requires them to build nothing.

  3. PD is problematic in scope of assassins, who are now missing not only 12% of their damage, but another 8% (potentially more) from the new support mastery, and potentially ANOTHER 12% is turned into "bleed damage". It applies to one target, sure, but ADCs shouldn't be able to just ignore assassination attempts, which is what these items allow you to do unless the assassin is fed beyond reason.

Marksman have been stale, yes, but never once have they been underpowered. There have been several points in this game (now included) where mages are purely optional. Marksman are required. Period. They have been, and continue to be (aside from that whole "broken op mord stint"). So the fact that they are getting buffed even further just degrades champion diversity. The fact that mages are getting so flagrently nerfed is salt in that wound. I'd be fine with these changes if they were power nuetral, and just increased diversity. That is not the case.

MohawkBird4 votes

As for your first point, you neglected the fact that AP champs have item 3089, which increases AP by a whopping 35%. Also I am confused at how the differential between the AD and AP ratio is 250%. They seem to actually favor AP more in terms of damage, or just be relatively equal.

JustMyBassCannon4 votes

20 * 2.5 = 50

50% is 250% of 20%

Smitemuffin7 votes

First reason: marksmen start with about 50 AD at level 1 that scales over 100 just from base stats. No mage has a base 50 AP, they have to buy it. And then it's much less damage efficient. See also the incredible abundance of armor reduction among champs that enables their damage further. When you adjust for nearly all spells having below a 1.0 AP ratio, crits and cooldowns, AD is on the winning end of every point.

ayNigerianPrince4 votes

{quoted}3) PD is problematic in scope of assassins, who are now missing not only 12% of their damage, but another 8% (potentially more) from the new support mastery, and potentially ANOTHER 12% is turned into "bleed damage". It applies to one target, sure, but ADCs shouldn't be able to just ignore assassination attempts, which is what these items allow you to do unless the assassin is fed beyond reason.

Talon and Rengar won't have any issues with that. =)

Koechophe5 votes

Talon and Rengar aren't mages.

Xonra7 votes

{quoted}

Oh, wow, the bonus AD ratio scales higher than the AP ratio. It's almost as if they expect you to get AP a lot easier than AD because it costs about half as much. Never mind that they actually nerfed B.F. Sword and pretty much anything connected to it.

Not even sure what you are going on about with saying AP is easier to get than AD. You must be smoking glue sticks.

Yeah, that early-game Crit is such a popular build...on no one except Yasuo. Who won't even want Crit Runes, now that Crit percentages are less screwy.

Yeah, that early game crit, that is on pretty much every item now. Have you actually looked at the new and changed items at all?

On one person at a time. People complain about that 12% DR, ignoring that it specifically applies to 1v1.

Not sure what your point is here as no one has said the opposite of this.

No, but they didn't say that these changes were meant to favor mages. Mages have already had amazing itemization for the longest time. They don't need help.

So you feel since they already had good itemization, they should then be punished and half all of it nerfed so AD can have better itemization instead? Basically what just happened, because AD has FAR better itemization now. Not even arguable if you are being realistic.

Marksmen have been the most stale role for five years.

I think you mean the most consistent. Sure I imagine it seems "boring" when one role is in every game, has the most consistent itemization, with the most clear role, and so on, for almost the entire lifetime of the game. You say stale, trying to say consistency is a bad thing, when it isn't.

It is pretty clear that you have paid zero attention to anything in the preseason stuff so far with your comments (let alone the game as a whole for "five years")

MohawkBird4 votes

Honestly I would consider the "consistency" you call it pretty bad. Having the exact same item build without any diversity among ADCs was just baffling, and the fact that it stayed that way for years is even more baffling. ADC build paths were stale, and to say they weren't is just pure ignorance.

ADCs barely had any options besides item 3046 or item 3087. It's about time they get some new itemization.

Now I am not saying this is just cause for AP itemization nerfs, but to brand these boring and un-intuitive builds as a positive of the class isn't right by any means.

Smitemuffin12 votes

You say as basically all mages are forced to buy item 3165 item 3020 item 3089 and item 3135...

Meanwhile: Corki : item 3078 item 3020 item 3153 item 3031

Ezreal : item 3004 item 3025 item 3158 item 3153

Vayne :item 3153 item 3046 item 3006 item 3035 item 3031

Twitch : item 3153 item 3142 item 3035 item 3031

Draven : item 3031 item 1038 item 1038 item 1038

..."barely had any options", huh?

MCBiggah996 votes

I like what you did for Draven there lol

Smitemuffin2 votes

I think it's funny because of how almost accurate that build is (I actually DO double up on BFs early sometimes)

Smitemuffin4 votes

Never seen a mage with 50 AP level 1 from base stats that scales to over 100 by level 18. AP champs have to buy 100% of it

JustMyBassCannon1 votes
  1. There's this magical quality of spells called "Base Damage" that takes the place of having a "base AP" stat. You see, instead of having all of the spell's damage scaled on your ability power, there's a flat value, usually 70-220 from rank 1-5, that fulfills that position.

Basic attacks don't have a minimum damage other than the champion's base AD.

  1. Deathfire Touch scales only on Bonus AD, you nit.
Smitemuffin5 votes

Brilliant! Oh wait, you missed the obvious point that marksmen have spells too. And auto attacks don't have that .25 second minimum cast time that the vast majority of spells have in addition to their cooldowns.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

You're right! Instead they have that ~0.1-0.2 second attack delay. And Marksmen have spells with either significantly lower base damage or range, not to mention significantly more Mage spells compared to Marksman spells have CC. Because, y'know, their spells still can't outshine a mage in raw, overall power!

Smitemuffin4 votes

Base spell damage for mages averages around 240 (except Kass, who has no spells that pass 200). Several marksmen match or pass that (in addition to >100% AD ratios on many)

Corki Phosphorus Bomb: 280, Valkyrie: 450, Gatling Gun: 272

Graves Buckshot: 360

Varus Piercing Arrow: 235 (+165% AD)

As for attack windup, it's reduced by attack speed. Mages don't cast faster off CDR...

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

Ahri 280 +70% AP (Q) Anivia 360 +100% AP (Q), 350 + 100% AP (E) Brand 319 +75% AP +8% max HP (W+passive) Chogath 305 +100% AP (Q), 275 + 70% AP (W) Diana 270 + 60% AP (W) Elise 275 +80% AP (W) Gragas up to 360 +90% AP (Q), 280 +60% AP (E) Heimerdinger 324 +81% AP (W)

I'd continue but it's dinner time. Anyway, the point is that the ratio of Mage spells breaking 250 base damage severely outnumber the Marksman spells of the same region, and whether they're meant to scale on Bonus or Total AD, they still tend to get less total damage from their scaling than mages' spells.

Tend to get less total damage from their spells. Take note of that phrase.

{quoted}

As for attack windup, it's reduced by attack speed. Mages don't cast faster off CDR...

It would be nice if you were attentive enough to pay attention to the fact that I acknowledged this. I pointed out that the attack delay is a range, rather than a set value.

Koechophe5 votes

I really hope you realize that the cases you just brought up are entirely fringe and extremely unreliable. the ONLY one of those spells that would be considered "normal use" would probably be Ahri's Q, and that's where almost all the damage in her kit is frontloaded. Anivia's Q is literally the slowest moving spell in the entire game and her E is reliant upon frost for damage, not to mention it's extremely low ranged. . If brand lands an empowered pillar on you, you did something seriously wrong, because his sear is easy to dodge (and is almost exclusively used AFTER another spell) and his E has low range. Landing empowered pillars is impossible vs a skilled opponent. Cho's Q is overloaded because it's nasty hard to land, and either way, Cho's base damages are through the roof due to him being a bruiser (see also, rumble). Diana's W does 210 base damage, not 270. 70 damage orbs X 3 = 210. So really bad example there. Elise's W is the easiest spell in the game to dodge; you can literally outrun it. Added to that, elises who build AP are pretty screwed over, because she's low range and squishy. Gragas's fully charged cask? Really? As if dodging that thing isn't easy enough, you expect someone to sit in the duration for an additional 3 seconds? His E, also, has high base damages 1 because he's a bruiser and therefore must build defensively, and will subsequently have less ap and 2 because it's a tiny little range and is extremely easy to dodge and 3 because it is almost always leveled last. And seriously, you think that landing every single missle in heim's W is a good example? Really?

Literally every example you pulled is terrible.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

{quoted}

I really hope you realize that the cases you just brought up are entirely fringe and extremely unreliable. [snip] Literally every example you pulled is terrible.

Oh, and listing the full damage of Corki's Valkyrie and Gatling Gun are more reliable? And you're going to say that getting hit by Brand's W while ablaze means you fucked up, but somehow taking the full damage of Buckshot was inevitable? You're going to give me shit for Gragas' fully charged cask, but you want me to take Varus' fully-charged Q seriously?

Fuck off with your double standards. The one arguably simple skill you chose was Corki's Q.

Koechophe4 votes

Uhm, I didn't write the original comment you responded to, buddy. I was just critiquing your argument. Also, don't rage so hard, it just causes people to ignore you.

RavenHusky3 votes

Keep in mind that the amount of gold that everyone gets is greatly increased.

The Bearded Bard18 votes

I understand that, but for some items they're decreasing the stats and increasing the price. That's just straight up not okay. To put it into perspective, Merc scimmy lost 5 ad, gained 10% lifesteal and stayed the same price while Zhonyas lost ap, armor, and increased in price.

Koechophe9 votes

Likewise, Spirit visage and banshees both gained an additional +10 MR and marginal health increases for barely any gold cost increase.

If you read the changes, most of them are power-nuetral or even power buffed for AD champs, because while cost goes up, so does stat and functionality. For tanks, Armor is now less efficient, and MR is now even more cost efficient. Tanks + AD champs have not been gutted in itemization like the AP ones. The fact that riot mentions it in the patch notes proves this. They just give insanely crappy reasoning behind why they made these changes.

Phoenix Kotori 7 votes

Oh fuck off we all know MR itemization has been terrible for a LONG time let's not pretend otherwise.

SV & BV deserve those buffs.

Smitemuffin2 votes

False. Sustained magic DPS is far belowphysical damage and there are fewer ways to reduce MR

Hawkefire2 votes

Personally I disagree, the items themselves were fine before (even borderline overloaded in the case of item 3065 ). The real issue, was, and still remains, and that issue is item 3135

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb3 votes

I think my favorite point here is that the meta has been 3AD 1AP focused for a long time. If AP was that efficient, you'd see it in the metagame as more AP champs, yet, top and jungle have only a few champs that can go AP, and ADC is devoid of AP except for morde, who is yet another certainlyTrainwreck.

A Liberal3 votes

also, AD is free to cast, where AP is gated by mana costs (Except on Kat)

Solidair32 votes

They said themselves that they are more than willing to go back on this change if it was a really bad nerf to mages. But let's remember: there is more gold in the game now more than ever, this might not be as bad as we expect.

I suspect they will have to lower costs slightly, but over all this change shouldn't be too bad.

Xonra1 votes

{quoted}

They said themselves that they are more than willing to go back on this change if it was a really bad nerf to mages. But let's remember: there is more gold in the game now more than ever, this might not be as bad as we expect.

I suspect they will have to lower costs slightly, but over all this change shouldn't be too bad.

There is more gold in the game, which evens out nothing really. ADC will have that same amount of more gold, if not more given the help from the support, plus the starting item that gives extra farming gold, etc. It honestly lends more to adcs getting a bit ahead earlier. Especially since we are likely going to see adcs go mid even more so than we did before with the occasional Varus (I really hope not, but I can easily see some of the changes making some of the adcs very attractive mid).

The Fast2 votes

So 2 things here:

1.) More gold in the game changes a lot of things. Mainly, time of power spikes. Meaning that if an item got it's price reduced, you can get it faster and spike earlier. So RoA getting its AP increased and price increased is meant to even out the delay in power spike with the more gold present in the game. At the same time, by normalizing common AD starting items, like Botrk, IE, and now Reaver, Riot is affecting when a lot of carries get their power spikes, that is to say they are making ADCs reach their spikes at similar times if they are even. At the same time, the overall price reduction on IE, coupled with increase gold generation, means the ADCs that run IE get that spike faster than they did before, even if the spike is weaker due to it only giving 65 AD.

tl:dr: Gold generation increase and item cost increase are meant to shift windows of power, not power levels directly. But you are right in that ADCs get more early game power in this case, at least the caster ADs.

2.) Cull vs Doran's should always go in favor of Doran's. You only buy cull if you go into lane thinking you don't want to fight/ aren't going to win lane. You are put in a serious disadvantage with Cull in a lane, relative to Doran's Blade.

THESuperStuntMan4 votes

Unfortunately, them saying they're willing to revert some nerfs isn't very comforting. It would probably take them around 2 months before they admit it was a mistake (assuming they will), and then another month before they get changes committed to the live patch. So that's around 3 months of misery for mages. That's pretty much what happened in the jungle in preseason 5.

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