"If changes don't feel like big gains to players, those changes are missing the mark"

Koechophe··233 votes·7,732 views

... and yet, we're completely unwilling to ever revert or reassess them despite overwhelmingly negative feedback.

This has been the pattern. On the PBE, Cass's rework was met with almost unanimously negative feedback. It was pushed through with the promise that Stashu would do a followup, and that never happened. Even today, Cass is barely viable and riot refuses to respond to any threads about her.

Mordekaiser's rework was hated by both mord players and non-mord players. Shoving a melee fighter bot created feast and famine where mord could only get ahead by stupidly unfair advantages, while having the dual effect of ostracizing mord players who actually liked him. Riot has pledged to reexamine him, but they keep saying it's a focus on duo lanes, even though players hate how he functions in a duo lane.

Karma's rework (particularly the art and direction) have been pretty disliked by most players. Shield-bombing has been taken away, fans were completely removed from her design (for no particular reason) and her art has been changed from a conservative, peaceful leader to an over sexualized, generic generalist. Players who never knew original karma are generally okay with it, but even after all this time, there's still a pretty dedicated group that misses her old design because it was basically gutted and thrown out without preserving anything that players actually liked.

Fiora's rework, (which the article that I quoted was about) was rejected (by riot's own admission) by almost everyone in terms of the art and design. Riot could've easily kept the old model and almost all of the old animations, which the players liked better to a huge degree. But they didn't. They steamrolled ahead with their own model and made very slight, almost unnoticeable changes just so they could claim they were listening. Even from a gameplay perspective, Fiora had her moment in the spotlight when she was OP, and then has basically been a non-entity ever since, because her new kit is (aside from her W) largely unsatisfying and spends too much of her power budget on an AOE heal rather than focusing on her duelist thematic. She still feels unhealthy due to her ability to shred tanks, and (in my opinion) is every bit as lacking in fallback patterns as she was before her rework.

I'm sorry, but the fact that Riot is constantly making statements about how they listen to the playerbase is extremely frustrating to me. We, as a playerbase, have rejected certain changes vehemently, and to that, all we've gotten is a deaf ear. I understand that sometimes changes need time to accept and to polish, but everyone makes mistakes. Some of the reworks you guys have done are filled with them. So don't say that you care about the playerbase's opinions unless you're willing to revert changes that are hated by the playerbase.

*Edit: There are more examples than the ones I brought up. These are just to serve a point.

*Edit 2: When I mentoned Karma being over-sexualized, I was mostly referring to her splash art.

214 Comments

Stellafreyja100 votes

Don't forget, when their poster child Lee Sin was going to get a rework, it was reverted due to extremely negative feedback. No other champion has had that luxury.

YumaS2Astral16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ace of Eden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RbRPgV0U,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-12-24T09:01:24.402+0000)

Don't forget, when their poster child Lee Sin was going to get a rework, it was reverted due to extremely negative feedback. No other champion has had that luxury.

As much as I hate Lee Sin and I want him to be nerfed or reworked, that rework they proposed was horrible and would not solve any of Lee Sin's problems.

Retillin4 votes

So... like Morde or Cass level of change?

qetzel19 votes

Those reworks did solve problems. They also introduced new problems.

It is arguable that the new problems are lower in severity than the old ones.

BetaDude4025 votes

What problems did either of those reworks solve? They're both just as binary and frustrating as they always have been, if not more. Cass cannot win a lane if she even remotely falls behind in farm, and Morde needs to be really flipping lucky to be able to win a bot lane trade early in the game. They're both even more feast-or-famine than they were previously.

qetzel18 votes

Well, Old Cass had two problems. 1 - She had the potential to be a horrible lane bully with an amazing late game. 2 - If Cass was ahead then in the mid to late game, if you weren't really long ranged or bursty then you had two choices against Cass. Jump on her or stay back. Obviously tou can leave her alone, but that normally loses you an objective. If you jumped on her, her Twin Fang spam was enough to kill you. If you tried to stay back then her Q had a high enough AP ratio to melt you anyway. Now. It was hard for Cass to get ahead - and a champion should be rewarded when they do - but not to that extent against so many champions. The second issue has been fixed and, as such, the first issue is less important, as Cass' "ahead" case isn't as bad as it was due t the lower damage at range. Being binary or feast-or-famine were not the issues old Cass had. And Cass isn't feast-or-famine or binary at the moment.

Old Morde had problems - these have been mentioned in the Dev Corner and in many other comments in some degree of detail. Being feast or famine was not his problem.

BetaDude408 votes

My main problem with the "Cursed Reworks" (as I call them) is that what problems they did solve, they just ended up creating even more, and the new problems are so much more impactful and easier to notice.

1 - So they solve this by making it so that she can have neither? She wasn't even terribly oppressive early game (above-average, but not impossible) and her late game was good enough to warrant a pick. Although, honestly, my experience on pre-rework Cass has been limited at best, she just feels so horrible to play now. Nothing about her is fun or rewarding, except somehow landing your ult stun.

And I cannot disagree more on the binary/feast-or-famine bit. She is an E-bot. That's pretty much it. There's nothing fun about carpal tunnel. You land your ult, pile Q and W in case they might do just enough damage for anything, and then you mash the E button until it flies off your keyboard. Abuse some spell vamp, and now you've got a kill.

Isn't the point of a rework to change a champion's kit so that they can be fun and rewarding while also giving ample opportunity for the enemy? Why is it so hard to make a rework where it solves more problems than it creates? I'm not asking for absolute perfection; hell, the new Sion simply has too high of a delay on nearly every ability he has for me to want to play him. I like him because he was an overall improvement, and it gave him a kit that is fun, rewarding, and offered counterplay. None of those things (except the counterplay bit, which is literally "burst from long range") are exemplified in any way in Cass's rework. That is why no one likes it.

UB3R 1337 H4X67 votes

Well actually Riven has.

qetzel29 votes

And Katarina. Several champions actually.

Mister Sunglow27 votes

So basically every champion we hate to play against (Katarina, Riven, Lee Sin, Riven, Katarina, Riven,** Riven**) Has received pampering due to community feedback... Seems a bit out of whack if you ask me. Why doesn't Riot release the info on the Boards for the rework, post a poll at the bottom stating "should it be included into LoL?" and if the overwhelming majority say no, then they don't change said champion.

aperson112 votes

Champion has low counterplay -> Champion is fun to play -> Champion has a large playerbase -> Riot refuses to rework Champion for fear of player backlash -> Champion continues to have low counterplay

It's a vicious cycle. Only the champs which don't have that second link get reworked.

LaughingStapler29 votes

Don't forget Kog's rework... which pigeonholded him into just one specific style and item build while also shafting him mid. I thought reworks were supposed to increase stylistic and build diversity as well as satisfaction. It seems like the exact opposite in Kog's case. His poke is a joke now and if you've got them to <50%, it defies the purpose of poke since it's usually the result of an engage.

Stellafreyja20 votes

It's really obvious Riot doesn't know what to do with Kog'Maw.

XeroKimo25 votes

I'm going to be that guy with an unpopular opinion that will get downvoted to oblivion

I actually like new kog

Retillin4 votes

I do as well. But that doesn't change the fact that outside of a protect the Kog team, he is really weak compared to the other marksmen rework over all. (not in numbers, but in playability)

Rebonack7 votes

{quoted}

I do as well. But that doesn't change the fact that outside of a protect the Kog team, he is really weak compared to the other marksmen rework over all. (not in numbers, but in playability)

I'm also a fan of the Kog'Maw remake, but it feels like it could use some work.

In order of importance:

  1. His machine-gun style needs to be something he can rely on rather than having it be a burst of damage. This could be done by moving the double attack speed to his Innate (worked for Graves) or turning it into a toggle (worked for Jinx) or by making his steroid refresh on champion takedown's (hi there, Yi). Or hell, they could just make its cooldown start when you pop it like every other steroid in the game. Because right now he isn't the constant sustained damage threat Riot apparently wants him to be.

  2. Smooth out the bonus damage on his Ult. If it did 2.667% bonus damage per 1% missing HP then it would hit 200% bonus damage at the same level while making it more useful in general.

  3. Drastically increase the AP ratio on his Ult, but make it so it doesn't go up with the rest of the Ult's bonus damage. This would make AP Kog the poke monster while AD Kog would have a potent execute.

  4. For the love of God put a bonus AD ratio on his W. Removing it completely destroyed Kog's hyper-carry curve. He has no late game power spike because there are only three items (Rageblade, Wit's, Nashor's) with any real multiplicative scaling with each other. And building Nashor's is only worth while if you're running pure AP apart from Wit's.

  5. Reduce the stack timer on his Ult back to 6 seconds. Ten seconds is insane.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

{quoted}

  1. For the love of God put a bonus AD ratio on his W. Removing it completely destroyed Kog's hyper-carry curve. He has no late game power spike because there are only three items (Rageblade, Wit's, Nashor's) with any real multiplicative scaling with each other. And building Nashor's is only worth while if you're running pure AP apart from Wit's.

I don't understand this one. Before that change Kog'maw barely bought any AD because on hit items were far superior due to his W cutting the amount of physical damage he deals by almost half. The only AD item people were building was Rageblade and only at max stacks would the ratio only slightly go over 2% max health. Giving it the base value is way way way better than encouraging people to build a stat that they can't get the full value of anyway.

Captain Aishi25 votes

look at how many people complain about the sion rework... pretty much no-one because it felt like it was a great rework I personally enjoy playing as, against or with a sion on my team and i feel like i'm not in the minority having this feeling

then you look at stuff like karma, cassio, etc. where a lot of people don't like playing with one on their team or against one under any circumstance

UB3R 1337 H4X20 votes

And it is not like Sion was a one hit wonder or anything, Poppy is being met with the same supportive views and for the most part so was Gangplank despite his initial tuning problems.

Retillin6 votes

Eh, the Poppy re-work is mostly getting a pass due to how bad her ult was. But the character was changed to a massive degree in play style. If her player base wasn't so low, and everyone agreeing how bad her ult was, then her re-work would just be met with a meh at bet.

UB3R 1337 H4X6 votes

Well then maybe that is what riot should take note of DON'T FIX CHAMPS UNLESS THEY ARE BROKEN. IMO Fiora was fine, maybe a little annoying at worst but fine

Quepha31 votes

{quoted}

IMO Fiora was fine, maybe a little annoying at worst but fine

I ten hundred percent disagree with you. She was just a remixed Master Yi and offered nothing to the game. She was called the grand duelist but her role late game was to just build hydra and spit out a bunch of aoe damage with her ult and either get a triple kill or die.

Only Play Darius12 votes

Poppy was so problematic that Riot "removed" her from the game for 4 years. Gangplank was walking stats with so much power on one skill that the rest of his kit had to suffer for it. Fact of the matter is that any sort of rework could be considered an improvement to these champions, so "supportive feedback" needs to be taken with a grain of salt

TonyTonyMordecai6 votes

I liked Gangplank... Until they made him look like an angry old man with a gorilla face.

HeadHonchkrow1 votes

That's what happens when you blow up.

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

Or the lore department forces a second visual update

HeadHonchkrow4 votes

Pretty much the same thing

JedenVojak1 votes

I hate the characterization of Poppy - it's just that most people didn't really play/like her before so she gets no support :/

Lajinn52 votes

{quoted}

I hate the characterization of Poppy - it's just that most people didn't really play/like her before so she gets no support :/

To be honest old poppy had the personality of an emotionally stunted cardboard box. New Poppy at the least has one, not to mention they got rid of that cancer ult so she can actually be balanced

JedenVojak3 votes

That is simply not true.

Poppy was a somewhat serious character that had a sense of duty, yet had a dry sense of humor with all of her pun-tastic lines (I would liken them to the sorts of lines an action hero might spout), and she very clearly got a kick out of hitting people with her hammer. She definitely didn't have any issues with self-confidence and she wasn't an idiot either.

Just because a character doesn't have 1000 lines, doesn't mean they have no personality.

Full Brain2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RbRPgV0U,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-24T09:29:55.080+0000)

look at how many people complain about the sion rework... pretty much no-one because it felt like it was a great rework I personally enjoy playing as, against or with a sion on my team and i feel like i'm not in the minority having this feeling

then you look at stuff like karma, cassio, etc. where a lot of people don't like playing with one on their team or against one under any circumstance

No one who liked Sion liked his rework and no one plays him now because it was a shit rework that made a fun character a boring one.

charcharmunro14 votes

Because a character who can sometimes sort of maybe reduce a bit of damage he takes, has two extremely binary build paths, both of which ignore two of his abilities and generally has a haphazardly thrown together skillset with relatively little cohesion is fun?

The Yetii Rider3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Full Brain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RbRPgV0U,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2015-12-24T17:32:20.598+0000)

No one who liked Sion liked his rework and no one plays him now because it was a shit rework that made a fun character a boring one.

Boring is not the reason people don't play Sion. The reason is that his kit is unreliable. It has a large amount of power and payoff if you can land the skills, but you often can't. And the introduction of Gnar has made playing immobile tanks unbearable in top lane, while the nerfs to Sion's shield have ruined his jungling.

Cosnirak24 votes

Your entire premise is flawed. You assume there is enough negative feedback to justify reverting any of those changes. You can't even know let alone prove that that's true. The forums are simply not populated by enough players. Same goes for reddit or even their numbers combined.

hopeful427 votes

I actually was with him until he mentioned new Fiora as a failure.

I also fail to see how new Karma is oversexualized. Just wtf

Changeling13 votes

Watch Riot NEVER respond to this. I doubt they even read this.

TurquoiseYoshi12 votes

You know what happens when Riot listens to us?

You get release Skarner rework and hotfixed Darius.

Wyrmblade11 votes

That was about balance, not character design/kit.

Hawkefire7 votes

Not this crap again. Sorry, this REALLY aggravates me when I see people saying things like this as it shows just how little people actually understand how player feedback works.

Lets start with Darius.

The chief complaints that players had for Darius were three-fold. First and foremost, they felt that the new Q was clunky compared to the old one. This is because his old Q had no cast time before and his new one does. Players didn't like that, it wasn't as fluid as before and (at the time) didn't give all that much payoff. The other complaint that I saw that had a good deal of traction was his W changes, namely that it no longer had a reduced cooldown when used on someone with a lot of bleed stacks on them. Then there was the reliability nerf to his E which players disliked because....well it made Darius's primary engaging tool much more unreliable.

Oh, and there was also the complaint that he was generally feeling underpowered. Which he was at the time (on the PBE that is).

So Riot sees these complaints, and does something about it, with some fairly hefty number buffs to his skills across the board. Then they released him to live after a week. At the time I would say that Darius's power was about average level, and people were still getting used to the way his Q worked and the way his E worked (both changes heavily impacted the way he was played and forced people change old habits quickly). So Riot hears people complaining that his Q feels crappy to use now, not realizing that the players are saying it feels bad to use because of the wind up, so Riot heavily buffs his Q some more, which turns an average, borderline overperforming champion, to something that was blatantly overpowered.

This isn't the fault of the players. Riot simply misunderstood the feedback and didn't even give players enough time to formulate a correct opinion.

Then there is Skarner....oh lord don't even get me started here. This one greatly annoys me.

On the PBE initially Skarner was underperforming (note, that I wouldn't say that he was underpowered at this stage, only that he was somewhere between underpowered and average). However this was NOT the chief complaint that Skarner players had about the rework. The chief complaint was the fact that they took a champion that was previously based on fairly reliable power and exchanged a massive portion of it for conditional power. That and the fact that his conditional power was focused around objective control, something that Skarner was never focused around previously at all. So Riot sees these complaints and believes that people think that he is very underpowered, so they buff him, leaving the conditional power at the exact same ratio and buffing his reliable power. Now we have a champion that is borderline overperforming outside his conditional zones and is blatantly overperforming inside of them. Players were still complaining however. What were they complaining about? CONDITIONAL POWER BEING TIED TO SKARNERS KIT. So what does riot do? Riot misinterprets the playerbase, thinking that Skarner is underpowered and ENTIRELY miss the point. So they buff Skarner AGAIN. Now Skarner is very overpowered outside of his conditional zones, and completely unbelievably broken when inside them. Then Riot rushes the patch to live, giving players less than a week to actually test the patch. Some threads were made warning Riot that Skarner was massively overtuned, but these were made far too late for Riot to even do anything about it, and they were buried under the threads asking for CHANGES (not buffs) to Skarner's kit.

The Soulforged3 votes

I didn't want the skarner rework in the first place :/. I don't want riot listening to the masses either, but I want them listening to the original players of the champ who have a good understanding of them.

Woodakoodashooda11 votes

Amen.

The Whamboozler11 votes

OP has a huge point. A lot of Riot's philosophy seems to be "refuse to admit mistakes or faults". Cass, Skarner, Fiora, Karma, Morde... all bungled in one way or another. Meanwhile the number of reworks they did WELL number exactly one. Sion. Poppy and Xerath are mild successes. I personally love new poppy, but not everyone does and her kit change was VERY drastic. I can see why old poppy fans might feel like a champ they loved was taken away from them and not returned.

But Riot doesn't like to admit to messing up. They make vague promises of "we'll look into it" if they get enough negative feedback... and then they move on with their day. It speaks strongly of a lack of concern for the feelings of their fans. They're big enough that no amount of whining from obscure champion's fanbases can really affect them... so they don't care. They do everything to appeal to the generic majority, giving them new things to play for a weeks before getting bored or tossing the new thing aside because it's not OP. If it IS OP they'll ride it until it's not, THEN ditch it. They don't care about the champs... just about winning.

It's one thing if a rework has a small sample of people upset and the rest like it... but many of them received nothing but negative feedback from the old fans, with the new people playing the champs falling off entirely. What is Cass's pick rate now? Morde? Skarner? Yeah... they're not OP anymore, so they're back to being used by NO ONE but that small, dedicated fanbase... or the ones who didn't give up on them. Nothing was changed except a hard flip of the bird to the people who'd been loyal or fond of that underplayed champ in the first place to pick them even if they were niche, or a little UP, or they got shit for doing it.

BluePolarizer10 votes

Don't forget about Hecarim's absolute gutting.

I Miss Cannon3 votes

Which was justified. While Sivir was gutted every patch for no reason and is trash now.

Tuss9 votes

Anything with an AOE that can affect the whole team tends to get hit the hardest because of the best case scenario. Just look at Sona.

OverpoweredSoap9 votes

Karma's rework didn't sexualize her that much, showing one leg is completely fine and generally not really much for sexual appeal especially compared to the rest of League's cast. I'm not saying I'm the most happy with her Visual Update but it's really not that sexual imo. Though, I do love her old design, much more sleek and classy, with a little sexiness in it.

I do agree with your other points though, even as someone who actually liked Fiora's update (I actually adored her splash art when it first came out and all the incarnations after it). Visually in game though, her update was massive disappointment as it looked like she was downgraded instead of upgraded, and I feel like her only decent skins now are Headmistress and PROJECT.

Decrit2 votes

It was stated enough times that a reworks aims to place a champion in a better place. if it marks the spot or not, it is aniway a step closer to the intended target and so is better than pre-rework, hence making reverts useless. This is the actual Riot stance on that.

I can or cannot agree with this, just reporting in. But be aware, that most of times players perceive champions differently from what they are supposed to be. For example, while the Mordekaiser rework missed the mark for many people, i praised it a lot and consider it a sheer upgrade from old Morde, while it is left broken or underperforming as late and while in worlds patch he was left overpowered without chance to fix it. I do not even agree completely to the change, i loathe the W passive extra experience, but i consider it overall better.

Rozzeta9 votes

A rework is not done to place a champion in a better place, despite what Riot might say. Just think that a buff or nerf on an item, a change in a mastery, the nerfs of competition, a change in the meta, all this can drastically change the champions appeal to players, so using a rework to improve a champion's performance is actually a short lived waste of resources. A rework is performed because Riot detects a "problem", a situation in which a champion is not doing what Riot wants them to, and they feel they need to address it. The rework will try to keep the appeal of a champion since it's bad for b usiness if they lose popularity, but ultimately if the "problem" in question was solved, regardless if the champion retains or not the same level of power they had before, then the resources will be re-allocated to act on the next "problem". Sona's rework, for example, was not made to make her feel more rewarding, but to artificially increase the risks taken when playing her. Done that with the short range active effects, if Sona was stronger or weaker than before it was secondary. Sion's rework was made in order to set in stone the champion's identity, in order to buff or nerf on basis of that Identity. Highly sucessful due to the mess that was the prior kit, but eventually he fell off; and Riot, having addressed his problem, didn't go back to keep him in that better place again.

There are cases in which the champions is really reworked to place him in a better place, but only because they not being favored by any meta was their "problem".

WookieJesuz2 votes

I never knew old karma, but may I ask what made old karma so special that new karma lacks? I remember reading a post a while back that said old karma had so many options, but doesnt new karma have that the same? If teamfight, maybe ult e, id duel ult w, poke is ult q. She still has many options imo.

Was it that before, she played like a fiter kind of, getting real close to use her q then shield bombing?

As far as damaging shield, I think that they removed the damage because it wasnt getting much use, and as a result buffed things because of more power budget.

Visual wise, whats wrong with new karma? Shes not really over sexualized at all imo, and has quite nice look. (And that warden skin is the best :D)

Basically, I find Karma right now to be a fun and versatile champion and dont really understand what was so bad about the changes.

banthor1118 votes

I'll go ahead and be the one to answer this, since I was a major fan of Karma' previous iteration. Also, Karma's rework history is quite ridiculous. (Not Evelynn or Ryze level, but more in the circumstances surrounding it)

Passive: Karma gained AP as her HP got lower

Q: Damage in a Cone, with Mantra it added a heal based on % missing health

W: Slow Tether, Damaged and slowed whoever crossed it, increased Movespeed for her + Allies, Mantra'd the effect doubled.

E: Shield, VERY LARGE shield, Mantra'd it dealt hefty damage in an AOE around the target

R: Mantra, except you had 2.

She worked by differentials and was very passive-aggressive in play style. Allies would heal/shield some damage, Enemy would take some damage. She had decent wave clear and pushing power for mid (she could shield cannon minions and have them tank towers FOREVER). Support-wise she was the queen of clutch-saves with shield + heal + MS buff/debuff.

Overall, she wasn't a bad champion. She was a fine mid laner that punished all-in's vs. her. She later shifted to more of a support role, keeping allies alive while using them to enable her other abilities, such as Shield Bombing and Speed boosts (kinda like Zilean). She didn't support ADCs as well as other supports, BUT synergized heavily with juggernaut/bruiser types, turning Garen's and Darius' into wrecking balls. (old karma would have been, Bot-lane Mordekaiser's best friend)

Ultimately, she was the victim of a vast number of misfortunes occurring at the time.

Overall summary of what went down:

The problem was that she was item dependent and everyone wanted her to be a support during a meta in which supports where expected to have little to no gold or cs, and spend it all on wards. Also, Riot refused to just let her Tether do direct damage to a target.

Karma got no patch notes tweaks after the 1st week.

Then Morello got a bug up his butt about how healing spells had no place in the game. (may possibly relate to the lack of patch presence)

Karma got taken off the free rotation list, which is a death sentence for a champion, as it inevitably tanks it's player base.

THEN, Riot went "OH LOOK, her player base is really low for some reason, lets do a rework", with Guinsoo volunteering to get her back on track while keeping her kit as close to the same as possible.

Guinsoo was too busy. Tried working a hard CC into the kit. After 6 months or so, threw his hands in the air, scrapped the rework, and went on vacation. Scarizard took over the responsibility of doing the rework.

Scarizard half-assedly tossed out a rework in a month or two. Basically, turning Karma into a generic poke mage, that while functional (after tossing a crap ton of buffs at her initially and making her OP), was rather disappointing to old Karma fans or boring at best. Many players weren't happy that a truly unique kit that had no toxicity issues was effectively deleted and replaced with a new champion.

As with most reworks though, someone will, statistically, enjoy a champion regardless, and many players who never played old Karma latched onto her new version and defended Scarizard's rework.

Supports then got a slew of new items and were allowed to have gold. <----** (I feel that that if Riot had just done THIS 1st and maybe allowed her W Tether to do direct damage, we'd still have the Old Karma)**

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