Let’s talk about what it actually means to be overpowered and why Winrate doesn’t necessarily fit

HateDaddy··22 votes·12,687 views

When we discuss champion balance, the two most oft-discussed data points are winrate and pickrate. And why wouldn’t you reference these points? They’re readily available and generally they tend to all be similar depending on where you go. And intuitively speaking, it’s easy to say “a champion is winning more games than they lose at a disproportionate rate (or vice versa, therefore overpowered (or underpowered).” But this is actually rather misleading and incomplete in terms of data. There are actually several tests you’d have to run in addition to winrate if you wanted to actually statistically prove a champion is over- or underpowered. And even then, it depends on how you define it. Let’s talk about that next..

What is the actual definition of being overpowered? Here is how I’d define it:

•A champion winning more games than they lose by a large margin (this does not necessarily indicate overpowered) •They exceed the capacity of their expected effectiveness •Their weaknesses are unexploitable due to their overbearing strengths •They picked at a disproportionately high rate

Are you already seeing the problem with this? So much of this is subjective and without access to riots entire stat database, any measurement you make is an estimation at best. This assumes you’re standardizing scores based on performance relative to a champions counterpart; in other words, you cannot simply say champion X has a Y% winrate and use this alone. It has to be relative to the performance of other champions in this role - so for example, a champion with Y% winrate in mid lane compared to other mid laners. But that alone isn’t enough. You’re comparing different champions, so this variance in kits and capacity of their kits (individual differences) has to be accounted for and standardized relative to everyone else. So even then, a winrate by itself does not tell you very much outside of a rather intuitive, but potentially misleading, observation. It signals that there might be something worth looking into, but it doesn’t tell you anything on its own. And I’m going to go out on a limb and assume nobody actually does this!

Also, even if the above was not true and winrate alone told you everything: this is still faulty logic. You are assuming a champions individual power is entirely responsible for their performance when that simply cannot be true. Many things factor into a champions performance: strong items and synergy with said champion, other popular champion picks and synergy with them and performance against these champions, the meta and what it currently dictates (teamfight meta; split push meta; pick comp meta etc). I think it is absolutely safe to say very few people on boards factor these things into their posts when rushing to judgment on a champion.

So, does this mean you can’t use winrate as an argument point? Absolutely not, but you shouldn’t cite it alone. I, nor should anyone, expect you to run an in-depth factorial analysis (one of many statistical tests you could run) on these champions - I honestly doubt Riot even does it. That’s because even then, that still doesn’t explain the subjective nature of the game and sometimes, the weight of “the eye-test” is just as sufficient as a statistical analysis. That being said, I still value stats over “the eye test,” but truthfully a combination of the two is best.

Since you don’t have access to Riot’s actual stats and nobody is expecting you to run some pretty advanced stat tests, I will tell you this: do not be absolutist. It is fine to say “my interpretation of champion X’s winrate, pickrate and general performance from my observations alone is that they are too strong (or too weak) and adjustments should be made). I would start by adjusting Z.” The problem is, nobody does this. They simply present stats isolation without discussing in depth how other things could be effecting a champions balance. And that’s why the quality of discussion on this board is so low.

I don’t think anyone expects perfection but if you want to have a productive and stimulating discussion about the game, keeping the above in-mind is a great place to start.

33 Comments

D357R0Y3R14 votes

remember when they were balanced while having 49% win rate Ryze Azir Ornn Aatrox Irelia

and before someone tells me "Azir was only broken in pro" FUCK NO Azir was broken period, it's just that most players suck on Azir because he's easily in the top3 hardest champion to play it did not make him balanced, and his kit shouldn't be allowed to be viable

HateDaddy8 votes

{quoted}

remember when they were balanced while having 49% win rate Ryze Azir Ornn Aatrox

and before someone tells me "Azir was only broken in pro" FUCK NO Azir was broken period, it's just that most players suck on Azir because he's easily in the top3 hardest champion to play it did not make him balanced, and his kit shouldn't be allowed to be viable

Exactly, there are tons of examples where champions had 46-47% winrates but were still incredibly too strong. There are a lot of things that can explain a high pickrate and low winrate. And truthfully, of the two data points (winrate and pickrate) in isolation, i actually think pickrate is a far more telling stat (remember season 4 or 5 Lee with 20% pickrate; 47% winrate).

Moody P8 votes

Volibear should have a 60% win rate to be balanced imo

Mordepool5 votes

Ahri mains say the same thing

Alzon3 votes

Skarner ”I miss my 65% win rate...”

Noor Sakata4 votes

{quoted}

Ahri mains say the same thing

Because it's a fact Ahri doesn't go in 1v3 kills all 3 or 2 at least and died or runs like Irelia she isn't that unfun to play against , and her Mobility is her ultimate she missed charm? well she fucked up and she uses the rest of her dashes to run Ahri barely at her strongest can kill 1 target and that's it Actually the only way why she is stuck to such a winrate is her ult dashes Not to forget before her latest Rework , Ahri didn't have her 20% extra damage after charming , she was a champion that should have 43% win rate but the q ms and the dashes made her balanced around 50% win rate , of course she didn't feel good to play and she is a Popular champion so Riot wouldn't ignore her mains lol

So what's OP trying to say is heavily applied to the 52% win rate Ahri and the 46% Win rate Akali " people still want Akali to be nerfed "

Mordepool3 votes

I would say ahri is balanced around 52% due to her safety and pick potential enabling carries. But if your trying to say shes balanced at 55+% i will be on the otherside of that argument

Noor Sakata1 votes

{quoted}

I would say ahri is balanced around 52% due to her safety and pick potential enabling carries. But if your trying to say shes balanced at 55+% i will be on the otherside of that argument

I pretty much agree that Ahri is balanced around 52% win rate too , since she is a simple champion that is hard to be played bad She hit charm ? that's how she out played you . you dodged her charm ? that's how you out played her

Even this 52% win rate eventually will drop when the current meta shifts since Ahri is the only mid laner that doesn't feed meta champions " aka : aatrox , irelia , akali "

Linna Excel8 votes

Voli, like most of the run at you champs, probably needs a rework of some kind.

Moody P5 votes

incorrect. Volibear needs nothing more than flat buffs

DarukongSr14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ukWynFGA,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-11-15T18:02:00.079+0000)

incorrect. Volibear needs nothing more than flat buffs

Disagree, voli is a bit dated. He could use changes as well.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Needs more AP ratios and less AD ratios tbh.

Oh wait.

Moody P5 votes

Volibear's kit isn't and hasn't been what keeps him from seeing relevant play.

His mediocre base stats relative to his role as an all-melee fighter with no ranged tools are what keep him from being the champion he deserves to be.

DarukongSr6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ukWynFGA,comment-id=00010001000000000001,timestamp=2018-11-15T18:42:53.442+0000)

Volibear's kit isn't and hasn't been what keeps him from seeing relevant play.

His mediocre base stats relative to his role as an all-melee fighter with no ranged tools are what keep him from being the champion he deserves to be.

Considering all voli does is run at people and either kills them or doesn't, and in the meantime maybe flips them and eats some damage...I don't know, it's just not very creative or intuitive in the more modern design, and I find it strange that you defend his archaic and aging design while also staunchly defending CertianlyT champs and newer champ designs due to being more creative, engaging, and interactive. Voli is about the equivalent of mundo in terms of design, stat checkiness, simplicity, and decision making. I'm not saying I don't like him, but he needs changes if he wants to keep pace with the direction of this game.

Moody P4 votes

If you're going to be this aggressively dense, why are you bothering me? Volibear has a strong disruption kit with 2 displacements and an AOE that scales with his attack speed. He doesn't -need- to kill anyone and, in fact, the times where he's strongest are almost always where he's filling the role of a tank instead of a bruiser.

I find it strange that you defend his archaic and aging design while also staunchly defending CertianlyT champs and newer champ designs due to being more creative, engaging, and interactive.

Because these things aren't mutually exclusive? CertainlyT isn't a bad designer. Volibear isn't bad design. It's not hard to get.

DarukongSr5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ukWynFGA,comment-id=0001000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-15T21:24:55.919+0000)

If you're going to be this aggressively dense, why are you bothering me? Volibear has a strong disruption kit with 2 displacements and an AOE that scales with his attack speed. He doesn't -need- to kill anyone and, in fact, the times where he's strongest are almost always where he's filling the role of a tank instead of a bruiser.

Because these things aren't mutually exclusive? CertainlyT isn't a bad designer. Volibear isn't bad design. It's not hard to get.

Aggressively dense huh? Take a look in the mirror bud.

BestPudgeNA2 votes

{quoted}

Considering all voli does is run at people and either kills them or doesn't,

Ever notice the people that want these "outdated" champs to be reworked don't even know what the champ does.

Herlgar3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ukWynFGA,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-11-15T17:58:52.221+0000)

run at you champs

It's all about dash at you champ nowadays

chipndip15 votes

Your post is good, but that doesn't mean win rate's some faulty stat. Win rate is never good alone. You supplement it with the other details before creating a final conclusion.

For example: I wouldn't buff Akali because her curve suggests she's just super hard to master for most players, nearing Azir/Ryze levels (not there, but she's the closest thing outside of them themselves). Now, when I make threads defending her and bringing up her win rate, I never say she isn't good. I do say that low elo players are basically asking for Ryze/Azir nerfs, and would be better off banning other champions or complaining about other champions.

Another example: Kat mains are bugged out by Kat, but should we buff Kat? Her general win rate is 55%, but her pick rate's low. Just means that her mains are doing aight on the champ. What's the big deal there? If we buff Kat at this point, she'd just become overbearing.

I used to be that type of guy that would misread stats because he was salty that his main champ (Sona) wasn't interesting, cool, and all that jazz. After improving my play and looking at the game differently, I made the conscious effort to be more careful about how I look at and utilize champion statistics when making a claim, but that's impossible to do when people are overly skeptical of win rates. They're still very important for the discussion at large because it helps separate how we feel from what's actually happening.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Your post is good, but that doesn't mean win rate's some faulty stat. Win rate is never good alone. You supplement it with the other details before creating a final conclusion.

For example: I wouldn't buff Akali because her curve suggests she's just super hard to master for most players, nearing Azir/Ryze levels (not there, but she's the closest thing outside of them themselves). Now, when I make threads defending her and bringing up her win rate, I never say she isn't good. I do say that low elo players are basically asking for Ryze/Azir nerfs, and would be better off banning other champions or complaining about other champions.

Another example: Kat mains are bugged out by Kat, but should we buff Kat? Her general win rate is 55%, but her pick rate's low. Just means that her mains are doing aight on the champ. What's the big deal there? If we buff Kat at this point, she'd just become overbearing.

I used to be that type of guy that would misread stats because he was salty that his main champ (Sona) wasn't interesting, cool, and all that jazz. After improving my play and looking at the game differently, I made the conscious effort to be more careful about how I look at and utilize champion statistics when making a claim, but that's impossible to do when people are overly skeptical of win rates. They're still very important for the discussion at large because it helps separate how we feel from what's actually happening.

As I said, it gives you an intuitive clue into a champions level of balance. We all agree that harder to play champions will tend to have lower win rates whereas easier champions will tend to have higher win rates. But this isn’t absolute either. There’s been times where Nasus (traditionally considered an easy to play champion) has had 53% winrates but wasn’t very good and riven (traditionally considered a hard to play champion) has had a 45% winrate and is considered overpowered. This just solidifies my point (and builds off of what you are saying): there are constantly going to be several explanations for why a construct exists so assuming only one explanation alone suffices is almost always an incorrect, and quite frankly, an unintelligent approach.

chipndip12 votes

Fair.

But do bear in mind that some champs will ALWAYS be accused of being overpowered, which is another element of the discussion.

DM For Rat Facts5 votes

This forum isn't well known for a basic understanding of statistics.

AirKingNeo1 votes

http://prntscr.com/liwp5f

they really don't

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

No one cares neo.

AirKingNeo1 votes

You care enough to reply despite being a person I've never met.

Sorry I used facts?

Linna Excel4 votes

IMO banrate at a high elo is a better predictor of a champ being overpowered than win rate or pick rate. I think pick rate just tells you who's meta and win rate is a better stat for telling people how good a champion is relative to the meta. Ban rate however tells you that people don't want to play against a certain champion.

My best guess is that overpowered champs in general either get to the point where they can hard carry a game easier than underpowered champs or they steamroll you harder than the other guy if they do get into that state. It's these two things when put together tell you how hard it is to do anything about a champ being picked and how frustrating it is to play against. The worst champs get to their carry conditions easy and have a large impact when they do start carrying.

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ukWynFGA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-15T17:33:56.268+0000)

IMO banrate at a high elo is a better predictor of a champ being overpowered than win rate or pick rate. I think pick rate just tells you who's meta and win rate is a better stat for telling people how good a champion is relative to the meta. Ban rate however tells you that people don't want to play against a certain champion.

My best guess is that overpowered champs in general either get to the point where they can hard carry a game easier than underpowered champs or they steamroll you harder than the other guy if they do get into that state. It's these two things when put together tell you how hard it is to do anything about a champ being picked and how frustrating it is to play against. The worst champs get to their carry conditions easy and have a large impact when they do start carrying.

I caution against banrate simply because someone may ban a champion that is strong against their Pool (I ban pantheon and Darius and neither are really “overpowered”). It is a data point and it certainly measures what people do not want to play against, but it also can be for not allowing someone to play something on your team and it’s hard to distinguish that difference. Nevertheless, it’s still a pretty useful point. You’re going to find that no point in isolation is sufficient for telling us anything barring a major outlier (damn near 70% winrate Skarner for example).

d0riyah2 votes

b-b-but i died to jax as a 3/6 adc late game, and he's overpowered!!!111 obviously your'e wRONGE was a joke. but these kinda people do exist and it sucks.

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

I rarely play Ahri (usually as a "support"), but when I do, I randomly mash all buttons and people still die, so it's definitely not a high skilled champ in my eyes. Idk how strong she is in terms of dmg compared to other midlane mages, but it's 100 % too forgiving with that Q mobility.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

{quoted}

I don’t think anyone expects perfection but if you want to have a productive and stimulating discussion about the game, keeping the above in-mind is a great place to start.

I skimmed the whole thing cuz it's so long expected to see a summary at the end but instead I see this. Oof. I dun wanna read tho.

no to toxic1 votes

Better idea use banrate to know if a champ deserves changes

Wolfalisk3181 votes

This may only be tangentially relevant but I'd like to share this. I watch a stream called SaltyTeemo which spectates Bronze V games, and players can bet in-stream currency on which side will win. Almost without fail, the team with Master Yi wins. There is virtually nothing low-level players can do against Yi. It doesn't matter if Yi is 0/12, as soon as he starts coming online there's essentially no stopping him. There are basically two scenarios where the enemy team can beat Yi:

  • Yi goes AFK
  • Yi consistently goes in 1v5

The overall issue is low-level players cannot win against a Master Yi under almost any circumstance. Yet Yi is a (mostly) balanced Champion with a winrate within what would be considered acceptable. But he is a massive outlier with this issue. No other Champion in the game does this in low elo. Winrate doesn't tell this story.

imfoolish1 votes

Riot nerf azir to the ground cuz pros played him extremely well while everyone else sucks at him.

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