Garen is the only champion in League to have zero competitive relevance ever

Moody P·Aug 2, 2019·22 votes·10,974 views

Not even when he was "broken" in season 5 Worlds. There's really no excuse to let a flagship character rot like this; no other beginner champion has been doomed to complete mediocrity. Ashe has been majorly successful on multiple occasions, Warwick saw brief relevance post VGU at the height of his power (and would probably be relevant again if Riot ever fixed his numerous and sometimes ruinous bugs). Even Annie has seen a return to pro picks this season because she's been played top lane.

Look at how much work his best players have to do to succeed with him. Multiple builds and rune pages, breaking every matchup (in TWO lanes) down to a science, all so they can still be much better off if they had just swapped to another champion.

Will this horrible champion ever get a real rework that makes him somebody worth playing for a reason deeper than just liking the champion? Will he ever get a real kit? How long do we have to wait for it?

48 Comments

Tahminatrix Aug 2, 20199 votes

If bugs are holding warwick back in competitive play, why not pick him then yell at the ref every time he bugs out? Riot will have no choice but to ban the champ from being picked anymore in competitive and fix his issues.

Tr4shB4NSYST3MAug 2, 20195 votes

Actually genius.

DracocrashAug 3, 20198 votes

Not having competitive relevance might actually be a blessing. Most champions that have "competitive relevance" tend to get gutted for soloque (aka 99.999% of the playerbase) while only remaining viable for the extremely elite playerbase.

Garen was always meant to be a starter champion, not an azir or kalista; and as such he should remain viable for the common player, not some lC$ scrub.

Moody PAug 3, 20192 votes

no other beginner champion has pro play potential sacrificed or ignored. its not an excuse to let poor design continue like this

Zero Skill TankAug 3, 20192 votes

Then again, as your post clearly says, there are players who like current Garen to the point of "breaking his matchups down to a science".

Do we really want to sacrifice his current kit just to get him into competitive?

Moody PAug 3, 20195 votes

the most popular Garen player has already said that he thinks Garen needs to be changed and that, at a minimum, Villainy needs reworked or replaced.

so... yes.

SuicidePlankAug 2, 20197 votes

Wasn't he just played with Garen Yuumi?

EDIT: Only Pros played him, not in competetive. But he was picked a few Times, here https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/de/lcs/lcs-replays/garen

KazekibaAug 2, 20197 votes

correct me if im wrong but Annie was only picked by a team that had absolutely nothing to lose, as a source of AP damage and CC that didnt require taking a completely gutted champion.

They were 10-2 and against a massively inferior team, the Annie pick and their entire comp was nothing short of disrespect. Not criticizing the players for it, they just knew they could get away with it.

Jimmy RustlesAug 2, 20196 votes

People will claim it's because he's too easy

Yet there are plenty of champs who are just as easy, if not easier, who see great success

Moody PAug 2, 20195 votes

Garen is the only beginner champion to be this consistently mediocre. Everyone else has seen pro play success at some point

DanyojaAug 3, 20191 votes

Agreed, I think the idea of a "beginner champ" isn't really needed in league. Garen simplicity isn't doing him any favors because most people know him as a character that can't be used efficiently in higher levels of play because he doesn't bring Engage, hard CC/displacement, Utility, nor can he carry very hard. All the other 450 champs bring one or more of these and have some complexity in their kit and I think Garen could use the same.

Most of his complexity comes from your opponent not reacting to your all-in properly, but if they do you'll never get any damage off or you'll be too hurt to actually win the fight. I rather he have more reactive tools to get in close instead of running in and hoping they got nothing to stop you. Also this play style really only work good in laning phase allowing you to snowball if you do well and use your strong damage and resistances too bully your way to a win, but you'll find Garen can't cinch a win on his own regardless of how well he does as a team fighter you don't have much, tbh if not fed he doesn't have much as a duelist either he 100% relies on being ahead to do well.

Lastly, no one wants to play a "beginner" champ since it's wasted time sure you might do well early one but even if that champ is going to be irrelevant/harder to succeed with you might as well learn characters that you know will be viable later on. Besides most new players are going to pick the characters that interest them the most (something from an advert short like a KD/A character, a Star Guardians, Jinx, ETC.)

Fízz v2Aug 2, 20192 votes

how can a champ be easier than garen? i feel like the only champs id maybe put on his level are annie an trynd, but at least those are somewhat squishy + they were never viable in pro play either except when annie was abused as support

Moody PAug 2, 20193 votes

Volibear and Mordekaiser are both easier than Garen

so is nasus

SkullgettiAug 3, 20191 votes

In what world is Morde or nasus easier? Morde might be broken right now but Nasus is so easy to zone out of lane compared to garen because he can't just sit back under tower and regen

Moody PAug 3, 20193 votes

in the real world, Garen has more skill checks than both of them and if he's "sitting under tower" and hoping his dog shit passive heals him pre11 then he's already been zoned for every part of the lane except his tower.

SomeoneWasntHereOct 3, 20191 votes

Exactly I dont know what this guy thinks you cant rely on that dog shit passive pre11 or 12 most of the time. pre 11 if not building for full tank/health your passive wont do anything for you. Youll just be sitting under tower like a jackass watching the cs of the enemy laner go up while your just waiting for 8 seconds for the passive to start then you barely see a difference in your health regen at all until you get at least level 8.

DarwinTheoryAug 4, 20193 votes

I love Garen. He may not have been played competitively but before the juggernaut fuckup he was played and viable at high elo.

Spin did more damage Was tankier early Had longer silence More MS Spin didn't have reduced DMG if more than 1 person was being hit

They took all those away, nerfed his kit and gave some shitty villain gimmick.

Thing is RIOT never admit to being wrong so we're stuck with this r%%%%%ed champ design that gets brutally owned by most top laners in gold and above making him utterly redundant giving 0 team impact.

EbonyBladeJ88Aug 2, 20192 votes

For the most part, the only change he (And really Mundo and Volibear need, though Voli's getting his VGU, so maybe he doesn't count) is the addition of some TRUE IN-COMBAT SUSTAIN. The rest of his Kit is really fine. He has his Damage via his Q and E and the fact that his W is a purely defensive part of his Kit is a unique thing among Juggernauts. The closest comparison now would be the new Morde's W, though it also counts as Morde's sustain in his case. In the event that he were to get a change to where all of his skills are attack-based (To thus be more like a Raid Boss Jugg rather than the Freight Train one he is now) as long as it makes sense for his kit, I don't think I'd have a problem with it. But as it currently stands, the existing kit works.

Most the other Juggernauts (Aside from Mundo, Garen himself, Shyvana, Urgot and Volibear) have in-combat sustain some shape or form. Darius : Heal on Outer Blade of his Q. Illaoi : Heal every time a Champion is hit with a Tentacle, whether it be her Q or the ones she spawns via her passive or her Ult. Trundle : Heal every time a unit near him dies based on a percentage of that unit's maximum health. Nasus : Yes, it's free innate life-steal, but HE has to proc it by hitting someone or something. Aatrox : Heals for a percentage of the physical damage he deals. Yorick : Heals every time he hits someone or something with his Q. Udyr : Turtle Form: 3 stacks = Heal based on percentage of his missing health.

KazekibaAug 2, 20191 votes

What if they reduced the damage reduction from W Activation, or removed it entirely, keeping only the resists + Tenacity, but W cast turned his passive on for X time (2 / 2.75 / 3.5 / 4.25 / 5 seconds?) even in combat? Adds a bit of skill expression, exchanges burst immunity for DPS resistance, which is useful for a champion who takes a decent length of time to kill and depends on an execute, not up-front burst himself.

EbonyBladeJ88Aug 2, 20191 votes

No, what I meant was that if his W got changed to another attack-related ability, ala Darius, or Illaoi. As for ideas on what that hypothetical new attack could be, I'm not really sure. Garen's mainly known for his Q and E.

Moody PAug 2, 20196 votes

I prefer Garen having immensely high durability. It sets him apart.

What Garen has is a complete lack of any real cohesion as a champion with out of combat healing but no real means of reliably escaping a fight to activate it and generally very weak presence in a team fight because he's burst loaded as an immobile melee. There's just nothing he does that really sets him apart that also makes any sense and he heavily lacks a real value in his kit that isn't easily outpaced by other champions.

EbonyBladeJ88Aug 2, 20192 votes

Like I said, I don't have a problem with him having the W be a purely defensive part of his kit.

Which is why I think that giving him an actual VGU (As that update he got back in 2013 was purely visual, and the Juggernaut Update in S5, as much as I think the Villain passive makes sense, it DID add a lot of problems too) that gives him in-fight sustain and presence in team fights to be more in-line with his fellow Juggs could be a good thing. I say COULD, because they'd have to do it RIGHT.

The problem is, Garen has existed as he has for nearly the entirety of the games' lifetime. He was released WAY back in 2010, in Season 1, so people (Myself included) have become quite accustomed to his existing kit. They could pull it off right like they did (For the most part) with Morde, or they could end up pulling an Aatrox, greatly alienating Garen's existing playerbase. I assume the reason they haven't tried it thus far is the risk of that "alienation", but that's just me.

This is all just speculation, but I think he'd have to get a VGU on scale of Sion or Morde. Rebuilt COMPLETELY FROM THE GROUND UP. It's a Risk VS Reward situation, where I think Riot currently considers it too much of a Risk to give him changes of that scale, due to the aforementioned possibility of alienating his playerbase outweighing possible Rewards of gaining new players or new love for the champion.

SageaceAug 3, 20192 votes

Mainly, the other Juggernaut champions (usually have some in-combat sustain) have something to contribute throughout a teamfight.

Darius Along with his Q healing, he offers Bleed, with more Bleeds leading to Ultimate Resets Illaoi She pulls her enemy's soul, Her tentacles heal her, so Ulting summons more tentacles which leads to more healing and hurting. Trundle Passive heals him, W heals him harder, Ult heals him even HARDER along with stealing stats. Q steals AD too. Nasus Innate lifesteal, Ult gives more durability and allows him to use his Q more often. Q gets stronger throughout the game. Aatrox A lot of combat sustain, If he lands Q, he gets cooldown partially refunded and a good chunk of healing, Ult doubles his healing from his Q and Innate while granting MS, making it easier to land Q's. Yorick Ghouls, ghouls, and a big ghost that steals life and heals Yorick. Also Q heals. Also can split push for free. Udyr Tiger stance bleed, Turtle stance combat sustain, bear stance stun, phoenix stance AOE burn. All of them on a low Cooldown.

And then, the what does Garen offer during extended teamfights?

Garen Other than a Silence and some manly 0.75 second Tenacity along with some beefy resistances? His 25% Armor Shred from his E.

Yeah, overall, Garen just lacks some real contributions to teamfights, let alone, REMAIN in teamfights. It feels more often like he has to survive a teamfight by BEING a ball of stats, while other champions have some sustain or some special mechanic that keeps them (or encourages them to keep) GOING in a fight. The only thing that Garen has to keep HIM GOING is his measly 25% Armor Shred. His kit sadly encourages him to b**ch out of a fight to sweat back his HP, then go back in again when you're guchie, or, like someone mentioned earlier, "because he's burst-loaded as an immobile melee." The other champions have more of a reason to stay, their kit tends to demand it.

DanyojaAug 3, 20193 votes

Technically Mundo's passive and Ult is in-combat sustain and Voli's passive only kick in in-combat, but I get what you mean like an active form of sustain. While I think that should be something that applies to all juggernauts to make them consistent, I'd take anything in combat for Garen.

Fiora's old passive with a few tweaks (gain 1-10 hp per second every-time you deal or take damage for X seconds (or until out of combat). max stacks: X (ability might only proc when at max stacks for balance)). Make it so you gain double stacks while W is active. Also helps the complaint people have that Garen can play the lane passive since he has no mana and heals out of combat, I agree it doesn't really fit Garen.

That said Garen I feel could use a rework, I know he doesn't really need one, but I think it's time. Now that we have more lore to go off of for him I think it would be a good time to give some polish and shine to Demacia's favorite son.

DyromicAug 4, 20191 votes

Logged in just to say this.

Yorick is my highest mastery champion, so I can confidently say his sustain on his Q is anything but noticable.

Even with Spirit Visage it hardly ever heals 30 HP. Yes, you can spam it but that doesn't matter when you can get superior sustain like Conqueror or Grasp of the Undying.

So to add to the topic, in-combat sustain is something Yorick (and Trundle) needs too because the ones they have are lacking and hardly ever feel impactful. I'm not speaking about big things, little things like lifesteal on ghoul AA's would add up with the Q healing and make Yorick playable even at higher elos (which is extremely hard in the current meta with a bazillion counters on top).

KVbqbFsC8eAug 2, 20192 votes

He was played in the LEC earlier today. Went 0/4/0 and did 1.8k damage, haha.

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/ESPORTSTMNT04/990652?gameHash=d43ed104878c3f4a&tab=stats

Tr4shB4NSYST3MAug 2, 20192 votes

Garen laning into karma top, yikes.

SageaceAug 3, 20191 votes

He laned against Karma using the Spellbook Rune. That's just a recipe for disaster. There are 3 alternative runes that will do a better job against Karma, let alone that Enemy comp: Glacial Augment, Predator, and Phase Rush. You could get Grasp of the Undying, but it's hard to proc vs. Karma.

Moody PAug 3, 20192 votes

He was troll picked. The guy playing him had never played Garen before and had to read his ability descriptions first.

Cind3rkickAug 2, 20191 votes

If G2 want to make it relevant im sure they will be able to.

hoganftwAug 2, 20191 votes

I'd say I've been a Garen main for the last couple of years and it feels like Riot stacks the deck against champions like him. Many champions can kite him out, shred through his defenses, harass him under tower, and overall just flat out counter him. They would have to honestly rework Garen to make him work in modern day League or literally break him with more stats. I don't know if I want to see another Garen rework, seeing as how Riot just tends to change champions completely.

ModPrandineAug 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'd say I've been a Garen main for the last couple of years and it feels like Riot stacks the deck against champions like him. Many champions can kite him out, shred through his defenses, harass him under tower, and overall just flat out counter him. They would have to honestly rework Garen to make him work in modern day League or literally break him with more stats. I don't know if I want to see another Garen rework, seeing as how Riot just tends to change champions completely.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Garens ult the only thing that received a substantial rework?

To the OP if I'm not mistaken Garen did have some pro play success in the very early days of competitive LoL (S1-2 if I'm not mistaken). That aside yes Garen needs a substantial rework (or at least some added effects on his abilities such as innate lifesteal on his E for example) to even have a chance in pro play in this day and age.

SageaceAug 3, 20192 votes

If Garen did see some pro-play in as early as Season 1 and 2, I believe it's mainly due to how few champions existed back then. I believe now it's almost 250% more champions compared to back then.

Additionally back then, Tanks (which was one of Garen's best roles back then) was the best role to use.

0DESTROYERZ0Aug 3, 20191 votes

incorrect, was played earlier today

ttv PennywiseAug 3, 20191 votes

Shaco wut?

SammyDayspringAug 3, 20191 votes

He's not exciting enough, so Riot doesn't care. They want flash over substance.

EedatAug 3, 20191 votes

Don't do it man. Wukong got used like twice in pro play last year and they immediately nerfed the living shit out of him after not having any changes in like 4 years. Not being used in pro play is a blessing, not a curse

SirsirAug 3, 20191 votes

He's not supposed to be high level competitive, and thats not a bad thing, it's okay to have simple beginner level champs.

JackMcCarryAug 3, 20191 votes

Will this horrible champion ever get a real rework that makes him somebody worth playing for a reason deeper than just liking the champion? Will he ever get a real kit? How long do we have to wait for it?

Then when the eventual rework will come and his kit will become more complex to allow for more outplay and counterplay - people will complain that he lost his charm as a simple champion. He isnt weak for majority of brackets, he has a health 50% WR and 6% pickrate in platinum+, lower (even up to gold!) brackets he stomps but that's because he's a low ELO stomper. So he isnt really falling off in any ELO, even in plat+ but because he has no LCS relevence then you want him reworked? i doubt his playerbase would want one in the theme of aatrox/

Moody PAug 3, 20191 votes

why do you people always go to the furthest extreme you can grab? "modernize this champion so he's actually successful in high elo and more than a low elo stomp" is not asking for Azir complexity or an Aatrox level rework

Vlada CutAug 3, 20191 votes

Garen need's a VGU I agree. He needs his problems adressed. As well as letting his Q be an AA reset and his E having actual damage late game

PiVoRxAug 3, 20191 votes

MasterYi hello

ƒrostγAug 3, 20191 votes

Garen has probably the most simple and boring kit in this game so no surprise there. He's too predictable and easy to counter.

Devilreaper XIIIAug 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uj68di73,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-02T20:36:06.817+0000)

Not even when he was "broken" in season 5 Worlds. There's really no excuse to let a flagship character rot like this; no other beginner champion has been doomed to complete mediocrity. Ashe has been majorly successful on multiple occasions, Warwick saw brief relevance post VGU at the height of his power (and would probably be relevant again if Riot ever fixed his numerous and sometimes ruinous bugs). Even Annie has seen a return to pro picks this season because she's been played top lane.

Look at how much work his best players have to do to succeed with him. Multiple builds and rune pages, breaking every matchup (in TWO lanes) down to a science, all so they can still be much better off if they had just swapped to another champion.

Will this horrible champion ever get a real rework that makes him somebody worth playing for a reason deeper than just liking the champion? Will he ever get a real kit? How long do we have to wait for it?

garen, one of the few champion that can kill with just shoes and no offensive items......

ModKnightsKemplarAug 3, 20191 votes

I mean....

They can't stop focusing on balancing champs around pro and make sure that all champs are balancing for pro play at the same time.

I'm not accusing you of anything, in particular, but the Boards generally feels like it has multiple personality disorder on this topic. Some champs are less difficult than others, necessarily making them sub-optimal picks for the most skilled players in the world. I don't see a way around this.

Obviously, for any given champ, you can fix it temporarily, but as long as there is a difficulty disparity between champs, the less skilled champs will be balanced for less skilled play. I don't see how to solve that wider problem.

ODiiiiiNAug 3, 20191 votes

I feel like you guys are full of shit.. Garen is one of the most dominant champions in league.

Yes he is easy to play.. yes many champions counter him. But who doesnt have counters?

Garen isnt picked in pro play not because he's bad, but because there are many better champions than him for team play. You dont need a juggarnaut doing his own thing by himself and who can get easily picked out in team fights in pro games.. u need tanks.. cc.. heals.. high dmg.

But even with all of that I believe the right player could easily be succesful with him as a tank in pros. But theres better tanks with CC so why pick him?

2Charmnot2CharmAug 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I feel like you guys are full of shit.. Garen is one of the most dominant champions in league.

Yes he is easy to play.. yes many champions counter him. But who doesnt have counters?

~~ u need tanks~~.. cc.. heals.. high dmg.

Don't need tanks when you can just pick the typical bruiser and get these item 3812 item 3053 item 3026 (and any tank item) after triforce. Not only are you actually a damage threat but you don't die that fast at all while pumping out your damage and cc, giving your teammates to do whatever they please with the pressure off of them. And since Bruisers actually have sustain (unlike the majority of tanks) they will be sticking around just as long as tanks.