Mobility creep only grows year after year... Why would I pick brand instead of lb? She can burst easily, is much better at laning phase, much safer and can escape easily from a bad situation.
RiotRiot Sotere63 votesBrand has much higher team fight potential damage and is better at taking objectives. I'm curious as to why the first of those points isn't particularly poignant. You have any thoughts on that matter?
Mind you, I'm not disagreeing. I played Brand vs. Kassadin the other day, and felt the same way. Kassadin's lane felt stronger, his priority-target burst felt more accessible, and I knew that he could push deeper and harder because he had good escape potential. Likewise, I just got finished watching Faker's LeBlanc vs. a Heimerdinger in solo queue. The Heimer actually outplayed LeBlanc quite a few times and yet, even as Heimer's team went on to win, I kind of felt bad for the little guy because he did get zoned some in lane, and when he capitalized it seemed more like LB's mistake than his stellar play.
Generally speaking, Heimerdinger and Brand are better teamfighters than LeBlanc/Kass. Over the years, they've almost always been stronger statistically speaking (they win more games). Is doing AoE damage in team fights that lackluster? Or is it more that the super mobile guys feel like champion's of their own fate, even if they're less successful?
hashinshin38 votesYou're right, Brand does have more team fight potential than Kassadin.
And that's why he's also a better team fighter than Lissandra. No wait, that's the opposite of the truth.
And that's why he's a better team fighter than Orianna. No wait, that's the opposite of the truth.
And that's why he's a better team fighter than Azir. No wait, that's the opposite of the truth.
Your entire post is "hey guys, assassin style mages team fight worse than AoE mages!" Well no shit. How about comparing team fight mages to team fight mages? You typed up three paragraphs that don't mean a thing.
I was expecting the typical Riot bullshit on how they're going to work on mobility creep but this man... dude it's embarrassing for all of us when you try to make an obviously faulty argument. Why not say something like "you know what, mobility creep IS a problem!" Then we can all pretend your'e doing something about it for the next year until you release a champion with a gap closer on every auto attack.
*(You have no idea how much I am struggling to force myself not to make a joke about analyzing the difference between AoE mages and assassin mages.) *
RiotRiot Sotere86 votesYou're getting dramatic because I compared Brand and LeBlanc when the OP specifically asked that question?
Chromatic Eagle8 votesI think the intent is why pick a stationary mage like Brand when you can pick a mobile one like LeBlanc? She wasn't the best comparison.
GuiltyGecko25 votesAre you aware that you are replying to Hashinshin? He has a reputation for being dramatic (though I do like that he is passionate for the game.)
Rew71112 votesAt least he didn't compare Brand to Zed... just saying. But, if any champion needs some compensation for mid lane, it would be 
.
Circuit Bear28 votesExcept both of their damage is too inconsistent to justify the lack of mobility.
You are threatened by ganks, mobile characters are not. They can wipe one person off the face of the planet, wait 7 seconds an drop another to half. Not to mention both have better CC in a consistency fashion. Leblanc has a slow, bind that relies on nothing else but hitting it.
Brand needs a marked target for his stun, and no way to make the shot easier. The stun is nothing spectacular either compared to other stuns in the game, nor is the damage. Compare it to Ahri's charm for example.
Heimer's has a giant tell and is much harder to hit in the sense that unlike a normal skill shot, it doesn't hit them if they dash towards it or run away. You have to predict for the exact place they would be at.
Throw on that if they run away you are just boned and can't follow where as if you get engaged on you are just screwed unless you can 100-0 all of them.
The only character (imo) who has the burst, damage and lane control that is immobile and feels good to play (again, imo) is Ori cause she has a ton of utility on top of mass burst potential only reliant on her ball. but her ult has so much damage and CC that is immidiate, unlike Brand, Heimer, Victor(Victor does and doesn't, His CC is better then most imo but still not worth playing him over other options, and at least he has a movement speed increase and a good slow stun). Cass got number buffed until she was good even though I don't know anyone who "enjoys" playing her more then she is "strong now"(This is friends, not random people on the forum. Since its a better stat since smurf accounts and so forth).
Veigar is getting changed in ways I dislike personally. Making him dramatically harder to play with less trade off. Which goes back to why Leblanc and Kass are just better, is because they can pick a target, and that target is probably screwed if you can't rip them off instantly. Same for Zed really. But Veigar no longer has the ability to pick a target and they are dead. No instant stun to give his dark matter time to land. No targeted q so ignore the front line to pick a high priority target. No DFG ult combo. And anyone who can stack better with the new q(being a skill shot it will inherently be harder to stack, anyone who says other is assuming theoretically perfection that should be possible against any player of equal skill and since any good player should punish you for stacking it) probably had to put dozens of hours into play. And all for what? The double hit q, better mana costs(which were ruined by the mana changes anyway and is more ofa fix for that) late game cooldown reduction(cause the game was hard cause of his late, not his early. So we made his early game worse) , and a debuff on his ult.
Veigar might be good. I suppose with his skill ceiling higher there is the potential for him to do better. But honestly? Where is the fun in picking him? Again, I haven't played him. But I'm the type of person who ran the numbers on elise and knew she was good top when she was released. Who knew the Cass rework was going to feel utterly awful with the numbers on that and the mechanic changes. I like running numbers and running scenarios.
And in all scenarios where counter play is added to characters with no mobility, characters with mobility become more unenjoyable to play against.
I still come to these forums hoping to see changes coming that will make my favorite characters(zero mobility characters, including supports, and tanks) more fun to play, or more viable or give mobility characters weakness that matters. And Kass getting his ult changed is a start, but after 3 years its hard for me to care with just that.
Also Veigar getting played in the LCS after all this discussion on him felt timed so stupidly perfect.
Also to add on the fact Kass and LB win statistically less over the years, wasn't that due to Kass and LB both being so bad for a year and a half nobody touched them? Also heimer didn't have that high of a win percentage before his rework did he? Brand maybe, I don't know, but he's always been unfun to me because his ult just kinda goes where it feels like and his stun doesn't feel good or his kit. If zero mobility mages as a rule could cast while movinng, I might be less of that opinion.
RiotRiot Sotere22 votes[{quoted}](name=Circuit Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uRv66Z91,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2015-02-22T06:10:58.137+0000)
Except both of their damage is too inconsistent to justify the lack of mobility.
.......
Also to add on the fact Kass and LB win statistically less over the years, wasn't that due to Kass and LB both being so bad for a year and a half nobody touched them? Also heimer didn't have that high of a win percentage before his rework did he? Brand maybe, I don't know, but he's always been unfun to me because his ult just kinda goes where it feels like and his stun doesn't feel good or his kit. If zero mobility mages as a rule could cast while movinng, I might be less of that opinion.
You mentioned a couple things that rang true to me. I don't like that it feels like the enemy has full control over my ultimate as Brand. The dagger digs in a bit deeper when you're against a super mobile person and in addition to outplaying you throughout lane, if they get hit by your ulti, they can bring it away from their team. I don't even know how often it happens but I do know the thought of it bugs me!
As for the winrates: forgive me for speaking very generally, but LB and Kass, even when they're staples of competitive play, don't necessarily win more than half of their games for we mortals in solo queue. Heimerdinger, Brand, and AOE mages generally perform very well in solo queue.
Ori feels good and I normally classify her on the immobile end of the spectrum because she doesn't have a dash but her W grants her surprising movement.
Syndra follows the no cast time paradigm, and probably not coincidentally has been one of the immobile mages we've seen have a presence in competitive play. Hard to say for sure how much of it was that bonus mobility and how much of it was a very dominant laning phase.
Hellioning21 votesAs for the winrates: forgive me for speaking very generally, but LB and Kass, even when they're staples of competitive play, don't necessarily win more than half of their games for we mortals in solo queue. Heimerdinger, Brand, and AOE mages generally perform very well in solo queue.
And how much of that is because of the fact that Brand and co. have a very low pick rate, indicating their either picked in games where their lack of mobility isn't much of a weakness or because they're only picked by dedicated mains of a champion? In comparison, most mobile champions have higher pickrates, generally indicating the average person is either picking them in bad matchups, don't have the skills to make their mobility useful, or are just picking what they saw the pros do and have no idea how to play that champ.
I'm not saying you can't pick an immobile champion and do well, but it's telling that very few mobile champions are picked in the pro scene.
RiotRiot Sotere20 votesIt is telling. And I don't know how much the popularity contributes to winning less. I do recall the time right before LeBlanc picked up steam in competitive, where she wasn't popular and even then had a low win rate.
In terms of non-mobile mages that have somewhat comparable playrates and better winrates Annie and Xerath come to mind, but admittedly aren't the best examples.
Hellioning10 votesLeBlanc can probably be explained by the fact that an average pug team doesn't have the coordination to use her greatest strength; LB can shut down a midlaner hard, and in teamfights, she can either kill someone outright or force them to back easily, giving her team and easy 4v5. That's easier to do with a pro team's coordination (faker just blew someone up, time to force baron) but good luck herding cats in solo queue, or in a less coordinated 5.
Xerath plays the mobility game by being so far back he might as well have a dash, and Annie does well for the same reason anyone with a good teamfight ult does well; a flash beardrop is a glowing neon sign for her allies to 'ATTACK NOW YOU IDIOTS.'
I think the biggest reason mobile champs tend to get a lot of complaints is twofold; first off, Riot is slowly phasing out targeted abilities, especially targeted CC, because it's low counterplay. That's kinda true, but it is basically the only counterplay available to mobile champions, since you can just point and click the LB and not try to play the game of 'is she going to dash? is she going to go back to her original postion? is she going to use her ult to dash again?' This tends to get Riot accused of favoring mobility because LC$BIGPLAYS and all that.
The other major reason is the aforementioned 'playing LB's game'. Whenever I beat a highly mobile champion, I generally don't feel like I won it because of what I did, but of what they did. I don't feel like I can act, but can only react; when I get a kill on a Yasuo as Cass, I don't feel 'haha, I have outsmarted you!', I feel 'you screwed that up BADLY, dude'. It's their game to lose; whether or not it's true or not, it feels that way.
Dfenestrator12 votesWhenever I beat a highly mobile champion, I generally don't feel like I won it because of what I did, but of what they did. I don't feel like I can act, but can only react....It's their game to lose....
This feeling, combined with mobility's very low power budget, is what I find most frustrating about mobility creep.
manbearswine10 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uRv66Z91,comment-id=00090001000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-22T07:33:57.179+0000)
It is telling. And I don't know how much the popularity contributes to winning less. I do recall the time right before LeBlanc picked up steam in competitive, where she wasn't popular and even then had a low win rate.
In terms of non-mobile mages that have somewhat comparable playrates and better winrates Annie and Xerath come to mind, but admittedly aren't the best examples for example.
Well we can look at some extreme examples,where ashe's winrate is higher than that of graves.
I mean we can all delude ourselves to what these winrates mean,but if you intend to tell me that ashe is anywhere close to graves in viability and power I'd call you insane.
JC DarkOmen8 votes
bring the bounces back up to 9 max, but with a base of 5 going up when hitting blazed targets? and/or make q go through targets? coughchoughignitehealshimandtocompensatenamicantcogh
RiotRiot Sotere24 votesYou're onto something big.
JC DarkOmen1 votesnot to press my luck, but are you talking about the ult, the q, and/or the ignite/nami interaction? i would take that ignite/nami interaction over an actual buff, just cuz it'd be funny as hell. forget balance, lets go for lulz!
RiotRiot Sotere5 votesThe main thing that jumped out at me was the Ignite interaction. I always think those ideas are clever. Problem is, when I think about it, my hardcore gamer wins out. As fun/funny as it would be, I want my abilities to interact consistently and would get super frustrated if I wasted an Ignite on Brand.
Also, I've always been a fan of the 'more/more reliable bounces on Brand'.
The Q idea at first I really didn't like. Then I thought about how maybe it could pass through Abalze targets. And then I still wasn't the biggest fan but it was a fun thought exercise. ;)
Circuit Bear13 votesThank you for just sitting and chatting with us. I don't know if I succeeded, but I tried not to let my frustration(I absolutely love immobile characters and tanks and they haven't felt rewarding lately at all, I didn't want to bash on this when you have seemed rather chill but I know that I am not the best at controlling how I come off).
I don't really have much to add since I don't know the statistics, off the top of my head and I am too tired right now to really look.
Honestly it is just nice to have a red show up and talk in a more civil way that I don't really want to turn it into a debate anyway.
As for the dashing away from their team to make your brand ult wiff... I had one dash into me as leblanc and that was far enough it didn't bounce, sad zombie brand is sad.
RiotRiot Sotere17 votesAww. I can picture you standing there, waving your hands in the air, all undead and angry that your ult never bounced.
You came across to me as perfectly civil and it's been a pleasure.
Rinky Dinky4 votesI would like to thank you for stopping by as well.
These boards have been a nightmare lately, and I feel that you have alleviated that a bit.
You have my thanks
RiotRiot Sotere13 votesI always enjoy perusing these boards. Rioters, like the vast majority of players, spend more time lurking than posting. All of the feedback we see here feeds into our decision making, it's just unfortunately not always super clear that's the case. It's a bit intimidating when we agree with a problem, but haven't found a solution we're happy with yet. So, keep the feedback coming, pretty please.
5G8Nri0B544 votesSo...what exactly do you agree or disagree with so far?
Like if I said, "disruptions(knock up/backs, stuns, displacements) have become too common and thus hurts champions with channeling ultimates" ( 
), would you disagree with that statement?
Or if I said "Annie is too binary with her Flash+R combo"...agree or disagree? Especially when her R is undodgeable.
It's really hard to see where Rioters stand on a number of issues. For instance, I'm still salty that you screwed around with mana itemization without really taking into consideration all the champions this will and will not affect to different degrees. Anivia and Lux being the most hurt. And resourceless champions just found their main oppositions suddenly scrambling to adjust while they remain safe and mana-less as always.
Or let's put this another way. I never liked your decision to make 
into a single-target DFG-assassin. However I never voiced my opposition because I never really mained her and I had other things to worry about. But lo-and-behold, it turns out this was one area we both agreed on, so while it doesn't affect me all that much, it's nice for those who enjoyed Ahri as what she is supposed to be.
Now if only we both agree that 
is just messed up hardcore as well...
RiotRiot Sotere6 votesHmmm. I think we should lay some groundwork first. I suspect you understand this following concept but I feel compelled to say it regardless. When I give my opinion, I'm giving my own personal one. Sometimes I'll chime in with what the Riot thinks at large but more often than not, what I say is what I personally feel. Sometimes I get the impression that players think everyone at Riot is aligned. We have a healthy(?) amount of disagreement internally on a number of topics, including some of the ones you asked about. As a QA guy for the Game Systems team, a large part of my job is to give feedback regarding potential changes. One of my biggest takeaways from my time here is that the first idea is almost never right. It takes a lot of iterations to get something up to the quality we strive for.
Sorry for the big preamble. Without further ado:
"disruptions(knock up/backs, stuns, displacements) have become too common and thus hurts champions with channeling ultimates"
Leaning more towards disagree. I liked the Galio change to not respect Tenacity with his ult, but generally feel like those champions can play around the interrupts. I get to play with super talented Malzahar players, though (I don't know why, but internally we got a lot of Malz mains).
Or if I said "Annie is too binary with her Flash+R combo"...agree or disagree? Especially when her R is undodgeable.
I agree that it's too binary, and I think our team has moved gradually in the right direction by making Tibbers more important outside the initial burst. Disagree that it's undodgeable. But that's a personal pet battle of mine. If you play footsies around the outside of her range and force her to Flash I think people can avoid it (although, as we saw this weekend, it ain't easy) by matching Flashes.
Or "Brand has potential, but never fully reaches it" or "Brand could use something beyond just damage"?
Agree that he rarely reaches his potential. I think he does add more than just damage: he has his stun and often itemizes towards Rylai's so he provides a ridic long slow. Not saying we shouldn't push him even further in that direction but I don't know if he's as one dimensional as people generally think.
But lo-and-behold, it turns out this [Ahri] was one area we both agreed on
This is actually something that we wouldn't have been in agreement on. I liked the Charm pattern, because it is incredibly frustrating for me to see an Ahri kill someone without landing her skillshots, when she has mobility to put her at proper angles to land them! Because of the latest changes, Ahri will probably fill her role better, and may be healthier long term. But if you told me the basics of the change being: giving her less damage but less reliance on Charm with more mobility as compensation, I would not have thought it was a good idea.
Now if only we both agree that [Cassio] is just messed up hardcore as well...
So there were undoubtedly some mistakes made, but when I see the end result I'm not upset about it. On occasion now, I see Cassio showing up in the LCS, hypercarrying! That was kind of the dream. On the rare occasion I play her I enjoy it more because I feel like I don't get 'cheated' out of Twin Fang combinations. Our developers are talented, and generally have good vision. That doesn't mean we're going to get it right on the first or second attempt but we're going to keep trying and hopefully end up somewhere good.
Thryale9 votesCass doesn't suffer from a gameplay problem as much as she does a theme/identity problem. The is the poison mage, not some ap minigun with a hint of poison.
Hellioning7 votesYou MAY want to emphasize 'this is my opinion, not Riot's', because when you say things like 'I feel the Cass rework is a success because she's hypercarrying in the LCS!' I can hear the shitstorm brewing from here.
RiotRiot Sotere8 votesMan, I feel like I spent a whole paragraph with that caveat! I'm ready for the storm, I guess. :) There's also probably a couple notable steps between 'not upset' and 'success'.
D2Vincent7 votesSince they haven't been mentioned in this entire conversation, I thought I'd add my 2 cents, but what about the several champs that don't have ANY hard CC to deal with mobility based champs? Annie has her passive, Veigar/Viktor/Thresh have their stun boxes. Syndra has her E, etc. Azir even has a little hard CC in his ult. (Granted, it's pretty useless anyway, hence why his winrate is so low)
But what about Karthus? While late game he's pretty dang good, the entire early game is dependent on staying alive (er...not in his passive) and high mobility champs make it hard to let him farm even when he's playing super careful. While it seems that the only way to deal with mobile champs is hard CC, Karthus has none, and he's (as far as I know) the slowest of them all (even with tier 2 boots), and his only CC is his W which is a slow/MR decrease. Now, I know exhaust is supposed to help with this, and I usually pack it with me , but I get irritated when I'm getting pushed back and there's nothing that I (and a good number of time, my team's jungler) can do about it.
RiotRiot Sotere13 votesI was thinking about Karthus while reading/posting, too. Mainly in relation to his consistency of damage. E is pretty reliable, R very much so. Q very dodgeable, esp. if the opposition has mobility. Was wondering if he was the posterchild for tons of AoE damage, consistency, and low mobility. I just don't think he's actually super consistent in his damage. He's definitely got that immobile thing down, though!
There is something about him that makes him more viable than most non-mobile mages not named Annie, Morgana, Syndra, or Xerath, as at least he was a pocket counter pick against Yasuo and... made 'professional' appearances in the jungle. Can't put my finger on it, though.
Tentakill Myself3 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uRv66Z91,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-02-22T05:53:28.983+0000)
Brand has much higher team fight potential damage and is better at taking objectives. I'm curious as to why the first of those points isn't particularly poignant. You have any thoughts on that matter?
I played Brand vs. Kassadin the other day, and felt the same way. Kassadin's lane felt stronger, his priority-target burst felt more accessible, and I knew that he could push deeper and harder because he had good escape potential. Likewise, I just got finished watching Faker's LeBlanc vs. a Heimerdinger in solo queue. The Heimer actually outplayed LeBlanc quite a few times and yet, even as Heimer's team went on to win, I kind of felt bad for the little guy because he did get zoned some in lane, and when he capitalized it seemed more like LB's mistake than his stellar play.
Generally speaking, Heimerdinger and Brand are better teamfighters than LeBlanc/Kass. Over the years, they've almost always been stronger statistically speaking (they win more games). Is doing AoE damage in team fights that lackluster? Or is it more that the super mobile guys feel like champion's of their own fate, even if they're less successful?
Is that why kassadin got axed?
RiotRiot Sotere23 votesNo comment. Except it might have been an internal playtest after his 5.04 changes. And yes, my frustration in that one game caused him to get further nerfed. Just playing, only Ghostcrawler has that kind of power and it only extends to frost mages. Stay icey, Lissandriego.
undEAdbUs1 voteshttps://imageshack.com/i/idqmCWb2p LB was only one AP (except Bliz supp) in enemy team, so I stacked armor instead of resists. She oneshotted my Heimer in 0.4 sec. I have 100ms ping, so I had only 0.3 sec to react. Even if I had Zhonia it's not enough time to react. Btw I had full items set, while she didn't. So in teamfights LB can erase Heimer with speed of light, and Heimer won't be able to do anything with it. I had same problem with Fizz before last nerf - I could stack resist, get Zhonia, but Fizz still was killing me in moment. As Heimer player I can say, stronger statistically Heimer is still very dependant on combo (his team and enemy). And most time teammates don't want to capitalize his power and picking "more meta" mobile picks which have bad synergy with Heimer. He's perfect with good duo or high elo where ppl know what Heimer is, otherwise in soloq better solo champions not teamfighters (because its "solo"q). Wish I could watch this Heimer game outplaying Faker's LB too, because LB always was strong pick against Heimer.
KesslerCOIL4 votesThe biggest problem that's been creeping up over the seasons is Mobility.
There is just too much of it. It's making ganking dramatically harder than it used to be, making older, less mobile champions weaker by comparison(
) They are either weaker because their best case scenario now almost never happens, they no longer have the same zoning control, cannot react to high mobility without blowing all their cooldowns or they just cant catch anyone.
Landing a , , or ult on more than 2-3 people is kinda rare now since there is so much more room to outplay their kit with high mobility everywhere.
can no longer kite even remotely as well as she used to since everyone has a gap closer and assassins can pretty much just appear next to her, without her ult she is mincemeat unless she has a specific kind of support(Janna).
can hardly jungle now since ganks are almost always wasted thanks to lane safety through trinkets and everyone having mobility.
's wall doesnt do shit, it's still rather buggy and can be easily jumped/dashed over, she is a freaking bird and deserves more movespeed.
and struggle to land their knockup/root due to a long cast time and of course, everyone has the mobility to dash out instead of actually having skill in dodging skillshots.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm7 votesInterestingly, most of the champions you listed are above-average in win rate for their roles (according to Champion.gg currently). I think Shyvana is the weakest-performing of the ones you listed, and even she's pretty much middle-of-the-pack for Junglers (#22 out of 42).
Not that win rate is the only thing that matters, of course, but it's hard to say that these champs are objectively weak, or that mobility creep has pushed them out of viability (particularly Ashe, who's sitting at a 54% win rate, best among ADCs and 8th highest in the game).
I won't deny that some of these champs are less rewarding to play now, be it relative to previous seasons, or just relative to newer champions. I'm not sure what the answer to this is, but I'm curious to hear what people think.
Hellioning3 votesApart from Ashe and maybe Lux, those champions all have low as hell pick rates. My personal favorite is Galio; you can play 100 games and you're statistically likely to never see a Galio pick. This indicates that these champions are only picked by their mains and/or in a situation where their strengths are useful and their weaknesses are not as bad as they could be.
Lux is probably just discounted because she kinda has the stigma of 'worse Xerath' right now, and Ashe's continued 'bad' reputation can probably be explained by the fact that she is bad at what people expect from ADCs (her laning phase is great and her damage is on the lower end due to only having one major damaging skill) and her strength is something that is easily ignored, utility (that giant stun to get ranged pick offs wins games but if being a support main has told me anything it's that the person who SETS UP the kill gets no credit while the person who landed the killing blow is a master OP pro player.)
Sure, it's possible that any one of those champions is secretly OP, or at least very good, which is just hidden by their lack of funness. But I'm entirely willing to believe it's a matter of 'only people good at Swain/Cho/Anivia play Swain/Cho/Anivia'.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm8 votesApart from Ashe and maybe Lux, those champions all have low as hell pick rates. My personal favorite is Galio; you can play 100 games and you're statistically likely to never see a Galio pick. This indicates that these champions are only picked by their mains and/or in a situation where their strengths are useful and their weaknesses are not as bad as they could be.
Definitely hear you on low pick rates - hope nobody thought I was trying to be sneaky and overlook that. On a quick scan, the highest pick rate I saw was Lux at 6.17%, so definitely not great. To me, this pretty clearly says they're perceived as weak - or at least, not worth the effort of playing.
The conclusions you draw are interesting to me. Is it bad if champs are only played in ranked by their mains (provided they're still performing around average)? For example, if Swain is only being picked by dedicated Swain players, and they're winning 53-54% of their games, is that a problem? If so, why? Genuinely curious here.
Ashe's continued 'bad' reputation can probably be explained by the fact that she is bad at what people expect from ADCs (her laning phase is great and her damage is on the lower end due to only having one major damaging skill) and her strength is something that is easily ignored, utility (that giant stun to get ranged pick offs wins games but if being a support main has told me anything it's that the person who SETS UP the kill gets no credit while the person who landed the killing blow is a master OP pro player.)
Emphasis mine. I want to highlight this, because I agree 100%. Ashe gets more assists on average than any other ADC (again, according to Champion.gg currently), and also has the highest win rate. Sivir is #2 in assists, #3 in win rate. And MF is #4 in both categories.
I don't think that's a coincidence. Their teamplay is their strength, not their "solo-carry" ability, but I don't think a lot of ADC players gravitate toward this. The mentality of "I'm going to help my team succeed" seems more of a Support/Tank one.
Should the "I support my team from the ADC role" be a niche we support? If so, is it ok then if those champs have lower pick rates? Again, genuinely curious to hear thoughts on this.
5G8Nri0B545 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uRv66Z91,comment-id=00090024000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-23T05:20:10.049+0000)
For example, if Swain is only being picked by dedicated Swain players, and they're winning 53-54% of their games, is that a problem? If so, why? Genuinely curious here.
Swain is like Malzahar from what I can tell. What I mean is that they
a) are only played by those dedicated to him
and
b) due to their rarity, often times people have no idea wth to do against them
I actually played Swain top a lot and whenever the enemy is a Vlad, I'd throw my two DoT spells onto him and his response...is to pool away not knowing how useless that move is. People have no idea of what I can do with a Swain.
Therefore I don't think you should ever trust data collected from rarely played champions, because if their winrate is low, it's because they're so bad even the dedicated players are terrible with them, or they're skewed up just because they have the element of surprise on their side.
Ashe gets more assists on average than any other ADC (again, according to Champion.gg currently), and also has the highest win rate. Sivir is #2 in assists, #3 in win rate. And MF is #4 in both categories.
I don't think that's a coincidence. Their teamplay is their strength, not their "solo-carry" ability, but I don't think a lot of ADC players gravitate toward this. The mentality of "I'm going to help my team succeed" seems more of a Support/Tank one.
I think the distinction here is TEAM RELIANCE. Don't get me wrong, Kog'maw and Vayne are pretty team-reliant in their own way, as in they need their teammates to tank and peel for them.
But with these other champions, they are team-reliant in the worst ways possible.
needs a team who can pick up the slack for her lower damage, plus while she's great at kiting the likes of Garen and Udyr, a bit of slow isn't going to help one bit against a Jarvan or Talon where slow doesn't mean a thing against their gap-closers.
is overly-reliant on her R late game since her 550 range without any mobility or self-peel makes auto-attacking often an overly-risky choice, hence she DESPERATELY needs a CC-heavy team comp to accommodate her.
I haven't played her enough, but during the few times she is Free, I have noticed the frustration similar to playing Varus when I play Sivir. That being, I have an amazing Ultimate..........and it feels like my teammates are too stupid to capitalize on the advantage I just gave them.
has issues too, but I personally think he's really powerful.
As for their high winrate...I unno, maybe I just suck and can't capitalize on their strengths. Or maybe teams are just better able to synergize and accommodate unique ADC's at different levels of play. I unno, all I can do is voice my displeasure that Corki can poke from afar and fly over walls if anyone looks at him funny.
who have long range, a leap, and a knock-back.edit: Okay I just realized something after typing this. All three of them have theoretically powerful ultimates...however they are high cooldown ultimates that are frustratingly team-reliant to really get the most of
TauNoob11 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uRv66Z91,comment-id=000900240000,timestamp=2015-02-23T04:35:00.134+0000)
Interestingly, most of the champions you listed are above-average in win rate for their roles (according to Champion.gg currently). I think Shyvana is the weakest-performing of the ones you listed, and even she's pretty much middle-of-the-pack for Junglers (#22 out of 42).
Not that win rate is the only thing that matters, of course, but it's hard to say that these champs are objectively weak, or that mobility creep has pushed them out of viability (particularly Ashe, who's sitting at a 54% win rate, best among ADCs and 8th highest in the game).
I won't deny that some of these champs are less rewarding to play now, be it relative to previous seasons, or just relative to newer champions. I'm not sure what the answer to this is, but I'm curious to hear what people think.
At least for me, these champs just don't feel good to play. You feel like you're trying to do something unique (Ashe perma-kiting or getting a good Galio ult) but the game is making it feel incredibly difficult for you to do. Why would I play Cho'gath and frustrate myself trying to hit Q's on mobile champions when I can play someone else who can do the same job with more satisfaction and less frustration?
RiotRiot ShadowStorm2 votesCan you give an example of a champ that you think fills Cho's role with more satisfaction and less frustration?
Dfenestrator8 votesI don't have a particular champion to give as an example, but I do have some thoughts on why people view immobility as frustrating and mobility as more satisfying.
One of the large pushes of the design team has been for counterplay. From our perspective (which is primarily influenced by champion reworks, patches, and releases), it seems like this has resulted in a large number of abilities becoming skillshots, having longer cast times, or having charges/delays before you can benefit from the full effect. In a vacuum, this is a pretty neat idea; it allows a person to perform a powerful action, but also gives the recipient of that action some limited choices to outplay their opponent.
The issue is that mobility gives a champion a significant edge over their immobile counterparts under this new paradigm. A mobile champion can reduce the counterplay their abilities have by repositioning themselves (e.g. Lee Sin ward hops so his Q is undodgable) and can also drastically increase the counterplay that is available to them against their opponents' abilities (e.g. PBE Veigar throws down his E, so Zed just shadows away during the delay).
An immobile champion, on the other hand, does not have these tools. This often forces the immobile champions to play reactively, which is frustrating. Rather than having the ability or the tools to outplay their opponents, they instead rely on the mistakes of their opponents or help from their teammates. This type of counterplay feels extremely unsatisfying. Most players prefer not to subject themselves to this frustration, unless they have an emotional attachment to a particular immobile champion.
Frankly, I think that the counterplay paradigm needs to shift. To become more satisfying, immobile champions need tools to proactively outplay their opponents, especially if their opponent is highly mobile. This can be done a variety of ways (e.g. changing the way mobility functions and interacts with abilities on a very basic level or changing the cast times, delays, and animations of immobile champions), but, unless something changes, immobile champions will largely remain unsatisfying and frustrating to play for the general playerbase.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm5 votesThis was a great, well-written post. Going to edit down to the core thing that's resonating with me:
A mobile champion can reduce the counterplay their abilities have by repositioning themselves and can also drastically increase the counterplay that is available to them against their opponents' abilities. An immobile champion, on the other hand, does not have these tools. This often forces the immobile champions to play reactively, which is frustrating. To become more satisfying, immobile champions need tools to proactively outplay their opponents, especially if their opponent is highly mobile.
Pretty sure I'm understanding correctly, but I want to be sure. Let's say I'm playing Lux against Zed. If I throw my Q first, he can dodge it w/ his mobility. So my proactive ability is pretty limited, and I'm forced to hold it for when he tries to engage on me, and only use it reactively. Ideally, you'd want Lux to still have some kind of proactive action she can take in lane, even when Zed's mobility skill is up.
Is that a the general idea? If so, a few followup questions for discussion purposes:
How do you feel about Janna in regards to your ideal paradigm? I consider her a largely reactive character, but she can make proactive plays with her Ult (particularly when used w/ flash).
How do you feel about Morgana in regards to your ideal paradigm? IMO, she suffers from the same reactive-only mindset that Lux does, yet she's been a popular and strong pick for a long time now.
Under your ideal paradigm, does the requirement of proactive play extend to all roles, or just certain ones? And should it extend to all champs in those roles, or is there room for some exceptions?
I should probably reiterate at this point that I'm not a designer, and I'm not on the balance team. That said, I am very interested in these discussions personally, and this has been healthy and productive so far. I want to promote that and keep it going.
5G8Nri0B544 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uRv66Z91,comment-id=0009002400000001000000060000,timestamp=2015-02-23T07:34:33.788+0000)
- How do you feel about Janna in regards to your ideal paradigm? I consider her a largely reactive character, but she can make proactive plays with her Ult (particularly when used w/ flash).
I wouldn't count Janna.
The fact that she often needs to use Flash to use her R offensively means she just lost out on an escape and blew a precious high cooldown ability to make a play that may or may not backfire.
Those with mobility of their own will take Flash. However they can make plays without the need for Flash and hold on to it for emergency uses. If your plays absolutely requires you to blow a Flash in order to make it happen(
), I don't think it should count.
Keevalroy7 votesPretty sure I'm understanding correctly, but I want to be sure. Let's say I'm playing Lux against Zed. If I throw my Q first, he can dodge it w/ his mobility. So my proactive ability is pretty limited, and I'm forced to hold it for when he tries to engage on me, and only use it reactively. Ideally, you'd want Lux to still have some kind of proactive action she can take in lane, even when Zed's mobility skill is up.
The point is that non-mobile champs are suffering because of champions like Zed who can safely poke you, but reposition themselves because of their overpowering mobility. It's worse with Zed because he doesn't pay for his power - he can harass through minions, spam his spells, and dodge everything you throw at him because he has no resource constraints.
The same can be said about Lee Sin, another champion that Riot apparently doesn't like even mentioning when the community is around (huh, wonder why) who can also spam his abilities without constraints, and can overpower pretty much any jungler that gets near him because in the early game, he has built-in lifesteal to survive this hell-on-earth jungle and % damage to execute the poor unfortunate tank jungler who has nearly died trying to get the last buff camp to afford his expensive jungle item. Then he goes to a lane and can ward hop away if something goes wrong during the gank.
Notice something similar? They both have too much mobility compounded with too much damage that they aren't paying for. Look at how they've been nerfed as well...yeah not a whole lot happened to them while their competition have been turned inside out and reassigned to different locations or playstyles while they remain free. I could criticize Riot's favoritism here, but you seem to be one of the Riotors that aren't dismissively waving their arms at the problem and are actually interested in helping.
How do you feel about Janna in regards to your ideal paradigm? I consider her a largely reactive character, but she can make proactive plays with her Ult (particularly when used w/ flash).
Janna is fine, just annoying. She pays for her ability to keep people safe by having people that are willing to be kept safe. On her own, she does pretty much nothing but float around and stop people's backing animation.
How do you feel about Morgana in regards to your ideal paradigm? IMO, she suffers from the same reactive-only mindset that Lux does, yet she's been a popular and strong pick for a long time now.
Morgana is kind of like Janna, only she has a lot more power she can dish out. Her strength comes from the 3 year long binds and teamfight stuns, but she has to build Hourglass or otherwise stay very safe because she's right in the middle of them. What sets her apart from Kennen is that she gets the shield that makes Annie and Thresh players cry while getting a permabind on her Q instead of having to charge up a stun that doesn't last as long.
Under your ideal paradigm, does the requirement of proactive play extend to all roles, or just certain ones? And should it extend to all champs in those roles, or is there room for some exceptions?
I'm not sure how to answer this one, but I'll say that you need to be careful here because of the risk of champion homogenization.
Edit: Adding that similar champs aren't bad. Graves and Lucian are similar but fill different roles while still being unique in their own way. Making a champ like Kalista who can't be hit by skill shots, can't be touched by melee, and is a general rage-inducing monstrosity isn't good for the health of the game. She should be more in line with what Twitch or Varus are, stacking burst carries - not a kangaroo that makes people want to punch a hole through their screens.
Auryiel10 votesHonestly, I think you guys at Riot should have a serious discussion about what it feels like to play as an immobile champion.
What does it really feel like?
What is like playing Brand, Lux, Anivia, Malzahar against Zed? Against Kalista?
I bet rewarding, fun, interesting, compelling are not gonna pop up. And you know why? Not because mobility is OH MY GOD SO MUCH FUCKING FUN LET'S GIVE IT TO EVERYONE. It'll be because playing AGAINST mobility when you don't have it is one the shittiest feelings in LoL and it is spreading at an alarming rate.
You have a whole class of champions that feel clunky, unresponsive and frustrating as hell to play WHEN COMPARED TO and WHEN FACED AGAINST your new, hypermobile champions. Those champions, on their own, are HELLA FUN. In today's LoL? Playing one is more like asking to pull out your hair than have fun.
Compare the level of mobility champions have now to champions that were considered mobile last year. Two years ago. Three years ago. Four years ago. The difference is as massive between those champions as it is between Riven and Orianna.
Chromatic Eagle1 votesQuestion about win rates and why people keep talking about them, does it take into account the types of play? Rift vs. ARAM, normals vs. ranked, soloq vs. teamplay. Those champions mentioned are cheaper and easier to play, which contributes to higher win rates. The harder champions are also picked by people who assume playing them will make them pros. Some champions are only picked by skilled players which is why they can have higher win rates than expected.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm7 votesThe win rates I'm referencing come from Champion.gg, a website that pulls data on Plat+ ranked games from NA, EUW, EUNE, and Korea for the current patch. The reason I'm using this site is because it's pretty in-depth, and it's freely available to all of you. This way, you can check any stats I quote, and offer up counter-stats or interpretations.
I don't know if their stats are 100% accurate, but probably as close as anything else out there at least.
Xaihady3 votesThe problem I'm seeing with those kind of stats is that the number of players who are in Plat+ are in a vast minority to the rest of the LOL playerbase, and I assume the same would go with the number of ranked games that are regularly played, more or less. Just saying, the games happening in higher tiers are most certainly not the only ones that matter, and the people who play there aren't the only people whose in-game experience should matter.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm4 votesThat's entirely fair, and I'm certainly not trying to suggest that Plat+ is the only setting that matters. I chose this one because I could get a pretty big slice of games encompassing "high level" play of these champions (MF has like 5200 games of data this patch). It also also means that the opponents are equally "high level". That is, not only does MF do well in the hands of these players, but she does well AGAINST "high level" players as well.
But you're right - this isn't the only data that matters. Happy to use other data sets out there if you have a suggestion. Big thing to me is using public data, that way anybody can look things up and be part of the conversation. Ranked stats are also useful because they give access to ban rates (another indicator of power/frustration perception), and they eliminate mirror matches which can make data messy. There's also the assumption that, in general, people are playing to win, and not just trying things out (not always true, of course).
That said, I really want to acknowledge your point that not only ranked play should matter. Ranked win % is NOT the only metric teams look at, it just tends to be a default proxy for discussion.
Pitong Traceur2 votesCan I ask one question touching that "how we define worthy feedback group" topic? I want to know if you even TRY to collect actual player feedback, I mean their impressions rather than statistic. Because your recent PBE changes point out that balance team are guys who sit in the cellar with their numbers and they didn't ever make it to level 30. If you are interested why would I think that - check out Kat changes, which were reverted after pro player TiensiNoAkuma complained about balance team doing silly things without asking him or Scarra. I am programmer and gamer, so I am by default interested in game design and I realise in any complex game there is a point when players understand game better than creators - this phenomenon occurs in every game genre and should be not surprising for professional developers. Yet balance team does some irrational, out of place changes lately...
I guess you know where am I going already and you won't reply directly on any Veigar-related content? If you can't, can we at least know if you (all Rioters) are prohibited from commenting on PBE Veigar change?
If there is no ban on Veigar content - can I ask why there is no pro player in balance team? I play this game long enough (almost 5 years, now EUNE) to clearly see Veigars changes are creation of someone, who never made past gold. In platinum people actually start to make direct Event Horizon hit difficult, in diamond it becomes pretty hardcore because they itemize against you and then it is no longer simple hit or not problem... And yes, it is about immobile mages, so can you please explain how can be Veigar useful (or alive) with 0.75 sec delay AND indicator on his stun, even if he had farmed 1000AP?
PS. I just went through platinum like a knife through a butter, so I have recent feelings. During that one go I have encountered ~5 enemy Veigars. None of them could land a stun frequently. This would probably explain why people like me, with hundreds of games on Veigar are sometimes called scripters and overall toxic mechanic thingy - because it is so HARD to be good Veigar. Still, I had problem stunning diamonds/challengers I encountered in several games, they can feel my moves and predict stun. Why is RIOT excluding strategic and tactical thinking as viable counterplay? Also, itemization?
RiotRiot ShadowStorm2 votesTeams do collect actual feedback - people are always looking at the Boards (and other media), and we have surveys that go out regularly and other such things. I literally just went to get a glass of water, walked past the balance pit, and saw people reading the boards.
But when players refer to the balance team as "guys who sit in the cellar with their numbers and they didn't ever make it to level 30"... I don't blame them for not jumping into the conversations. Not likely to be productive.
Something to think about.
(I can't speak to Veigar because I don't know anything more than you all do. I'm also a terrible Veigar player, so wouldn't be able to add much to the discussion)
Keevalroy4 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uRv66Z91,comment-id=000900240000000400000001000100000000,timestamp=2015-02-23T22:01:33.269+0000)
But when players refer to the balance team as "guys who sit in the cellar with their numbers and they didn't ever make it to level 30"... I don't blame them for not jumping into the conversations. Not likely to be productive.
Something to think about.
I'll agree to this to a certain extent, but you surely can see why a large portion of us think this way. We've had absolutely no response to the feedback we've been giving on such random and unwanted changes to League. Since the start of season 5, every patch has introduced a number of things that have caused anger and confusion throughout the community, but they will still go to the live servers regardless of any feedback, constructive or rant. What's worse is it seems like they are making changes without considering the opinions of anyone else but their own.
Look at the jungle. Who other than Lee Sin players likes it this way? The early jungle is complete hell, and the recent smite upgrade cost increase has made it even worse for the junglers who were struggling to begin with! Thankfully there is a system coming to the PBE that will allow us to show them the problems with it, but the thought remains; are they actually going to do something with our feedback this time?
Look at the balance history. Notice how many champions get nerfed while others who are actually a problem get off scot-free? Champions are nerfed to oblivion and assigned different roles when they might be a slight problem, or there are those times (Cass) where there wasn't anything wrong with the champion to begin with, but it was insisted that the kit needed a rework that was brutally enforced despite the champion's playerbase expressing their frustration with it.
This brings us to favoritism. They very clearly have favorite champions, and champions they don't like seeing. That might explain why Lee Sin, Zed, and Kalista are allowed to exist the way they are while Sona was nerfed what was it; 32 times in the span of 6 months? You have to agree that something like this is rather odd isn't it?
How about their emphasis on the pro scene? When you think about those favorite champions, what are they doing? They're making flashy and "fun," plays that he audience will react to. This seems to put more focus on the flashy playmakers still being able to make their exciting plays while the immobile champions with simple and 'boring' skillsets are being swept under the rug to allow more room for mobile powerhouses.
This mobility is a problem that has yet to be addressed, rather it is being promoted and enforced by having everyone and everything that moves have a dash or a blink following a rework. When Ahri's transition from healthy assassin to unhealthy mage occurred following DFG's removal, Riot decided to slap mobility on her as if it was an appropriate compensation for her assassin playstyle being removed from the game for no reason at all.
They can say their philosophy for what an assassin is requires them not to have CC, so explain LeBlanc. That kind of subtle hypocrisy is everywhere, increasing at an alarming rate. As a serious question, when was the last time they actually followed their philosophies? Because Yasuo and Kalista managed to go against just about every one of them, but they're allowed to stay on the roster.
We may sound overly negative and seem unwelcoming, but you can't argue that we have no reason to feel this way.
