Can we give talon ashe's passive and vice-versa?

DropFill·Mar 10, 2015·180 votes·8,640 views

Their passives would be good if they were switched. Right now both are pretty useless in their respective kits

170 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarMar 10, 201559 votes

That's... actually brilliant.

SmokinSickStyleMar 11, 201519 votes

FYI such idea existed way before OP posted it.

Aaand since it's been a long time this kind of suggestion has been requested several times in the past, i highly doubt Riot has even thought about actually doing it.

Blue Moon WolfMar 11, 201522 votes

mean while, at riot: damn, that's a great idea... but we can't use it since we didn't think of it first... DAMN IT, lets just nerf someone who doesn't need it and call it a day.

Sightless66Mar 11, 201514 votes

I remember a rioter actually responding to this exact idea before (for the life of me though, I can't remember who it was). They thought it sounded like really bad design. Ashe's passive would essentially read "Ashe does 10% more autoattack damage when she turns Q on". Is that really an interesting passive? There's almost no thought involved in it, and it's pretty much just turns one ability that wasn't a steroid into a steroid. It would make her stronger, but if that's the only goal, we could just jack up her base stats and get pretty much the same effect.

As for Talon, my memory is a bit fuzzier on the argument against it, but I think the argument was that Talon already has good burst and he doesn't just need more upfront burst on whoever he goes in on. He already has pretty good immediate burst. It would probably make him him stronger, but it's not the best way to do it. I think the Rioter liked it a little more than the Ashe change, but not by much. Like I said though, I can't completely remember this part.

DropFillMar 11, 20158 votes

{quoted}

I remember a rioter actually responding to this exact idea before (for the life of me though, I can't remember who it was). They thought it sounded like really bad design. Ashe's passive would essentially read "Ashe does 10% more autoattack damage when she turns Q on". Is that really an interesting passive? There's almost no thought involved in it, and it's pretty much just turns one ability that wasn't a steroid into a steroid. It would make her stronger, but if that's the only goal, we could just jack up her base stats and get pretty much the same effect.

Corki does 10% more damage on every AA as true damage... Jinx has this passive attached to her Q, while gaining range and aoe damage. How is this bad on ashe if 2 adc's already have it?

Sightless66Mar 11, 20154 votes

Corki has horrible base stats for an ADC, and I'd argue his passive is shitty design. I'd remove it and give him something else. It's at least true damage, which gives it some kind of ideal situation (use against high resistances foes). Ashe wouldn't even have that. Jinx gives up the single target damage from her minigun when she uses rockets. She gives up a lot of. That's a tradeoff. It's completely different from Ashe's, because Ashe gives up nothing of consequence to get more damage. We might as well just up her base attack speed by 10%.

The NecronMar 11, 20151 votes

ashe has no passive damage on her q while jinx gets attack speed increase without using mana. In any case ashe has NO AD STEROID, (im pretty sure the only adc in game without one) as well as her e is considerably the same as kalistas ghost, but she has an almost ignorable passive compared to kalistas super powered one. What does she get in exchange? well her volley is a bit better than the spear although she has no leap away. her escape? a q, which is a pathetic ability with all the dashes the only thing she kites at all is someone like a nautilus who missed his q, her q and and maybe passive i would vouch is the worst in the game. Her e is underpowered. her w is granted a little bit better than the average, and her ult is average. She is in all honesty one of the worst champs in the game and definitely the worst adc unless you count urgot.

CarnicoreMar 11, 20152 votes

Statistically speaking, she's one of the strongest adcs in soloqueue.

HeadinPantsMar 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Statistically speaking, she's one of the strongest adcs in soloqueue.

That's because she's not played often, and people don't know how to play her. She has a strong win rate because the few people who play her actually know how.

Battlecast SonaMar 11, 20153 votes

But don't you understand?

Ashe is missing a steroid. That's exactly what her kit needs - some sort of damage increase for her AAs to make her scale into the mid and late game. She doesn't have an ASPD steroid, she doesn't have some sort of bonus damage for x number of AAs, she has NO STEROIDS AT ALL. Steroids are very important for ADCs and Ashe's current passive doesn't fit the bill.

On the other hand, Talon having Ashe's passive would reduce the damage from him AAing continuously but give him more upfront burst... Which might not be a bad thing, but maybe it would be?

More importantly though... Ashe's passive sucks for Ashe and she needs something else.

Titanium70Mar 12, 20152 votes

First i was confused, Than speechless,

Now: I´ll join Cyano. ^^ That´s... actually... brilliant! xD

For Ashe, well Q=10%DMG that´s OK(kinda boring but OK, considering she has zero mobility an AA steroid could actually bring her back) - in Talon´s case: This passive would be amazing! Waveclear on W -> Stacking crit -> DMG-Trade + Roaming would be amazing as well. ^^

CastaneanMar 10, 201522 votes

Heh, I guess I've gotta be the one...

Is that... REALLY a good idea? Sure, they'b both really benefit from it, their passives seem perfect for the other one, but remember that Ashe is supposed to be great at chasing + kiting, and trades damage for utility. If you give Ashe Talon's passive, that's literally 10% more damage EVERY basic attack. Because it's Ashe. suddenly, you'll have to deal with Ashe becoming the meta, and then you'd most likely realize how broken OP Talon's passive is on Ashe. Try to imagine it for a second; Ashe. Slowing by 35% permanently. Then you add 10% to the typical ADC damage, basically. Then you factor in Ashe's ultimate. Just, imagine this for a second. Now imagine it WITHOUT all your fancy, shnancy dashes.

Not so good an idea anymore, is it?

I'm so sorry I had to be that one guy, but it'd really just work too well on her. Talon would be fine though. Besides, I think Ashe's current passive gives her some really unique strengths as an ADC.

Yuki AkumaMar 10, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Heh, I guess I've gotta be the one...

Is that... REALLY a good idea? Sure, they'b both really benefit from it, their passives seem perfect for the other one, but remember that Ashe is supposed to be great at chasing + kiting, and trades damage for utility. If you give Ashe Talon's passive, that's literally 10% more damage EVERY basic attack. Because it's Ashe. suddenly, you'll have to deal with Ashe becoming the meta, and then you'd most likely realize how broken OP Talon's passive is on Ashe. Try to imagine it for a second; Ashe. Slowing by 35% permanently. Then you add 10% to the typical ADC damage, basically. Then you factor in Ashe's ultimate. Just, imagine this for a second. Now imagine it WITHOUT all your fancy, shnancy dashes.

Not so good an idea anymore, is it?

I'm so sorry I had to be that one guy, but it'd really just work too well on her. Talon would be fine though. Besides, I think Ashe's current passive gives her some really unique strengths as an ADC.

Even with Talon's passive she wouldn't be considered god tier or anything. You look at her and then look at Kalista, 10% damage on her autos isn't going to make Kalista go away. As for Talon, he should roam a lot, so the passive would actually stack up and help his burst assassination, but would "technically" weaken long trades, which is what he sucks at regardless. It would make both decent, but I bet neither would be LCS/LPL/LCK picks even after these changes solely because they don't have overloaded kits and immense safety.

JustMyBassCannonMar 11, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yuki Akuma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xc9MX7hH,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-03-10T23:49:40.123+0000)

Even with Talon's passive she wouldn't be considered god tier or anything.

You're saying that about the champion who is literally the reason that mobility creep exists.

ReazaleMar 11, 20155 votes

At this point in the game , Ashe is just a lesser offender....

JustMyBassCannonMar 11, 20151 votes

That is your opinion, you are entitled to it, but it is still an opinion.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Mar 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

That is your opinion, you are entitled to it, but it is still an opinion.

What a flawlessly valid point.

DropFillMar 11, 201529 votes

{quoted} Because it's Ashe. suddenly, you'll have to deal with Ashe becoming the meta

GOD CALL THE COPS , ASHE A VIABLE CHAMPION? NO WAY. Better deal with jinx and her BS aoe crits!

JustMyBassCannonMar 11, 20156 votes

Because Ashe isn't viable already--oh fuck, she's actually doing really well, like she has for the past four years.

CastaneanMar 11, 201516 votes

First of all, you cut my post at the wrong places. The meaning of the parts you cut out were: "10% more damage on every basic attack because It's Ashe and she permaslows." and "Ashe would become meta and you'd see how strong 10% more damage is."

Please, allow me to go into a bit greater detail.

Ashe is a very long range ADC, all things considered. She can also perma-slow. Adding 10% damage on slowed ect. targets will essentially give Ashe 10% more permanent AD. Ashe is supposed to trade damage for utility. With this passive, Ashe's damage would in every sense rival that of nearly any other ADC. Now you have an ADC with a higher range, the highest natural attack speed in the game (tied with Vayne,)THE best utility (The whole reason she's good,) high damage, amazing kiting and chasing ability, 3 extra gold for every last hit and a skill that can scout Baron from the third Middle turret, if not further.

What is her weakness?

Also; This would also pretty much invalidate every single immobile champion, Jinx included. The only ones who'd be able to stick around would be the likes of Orianna or Lux(possibly) merely because they outrange Ashe, or the ones with heavy enough CC to be able to get out of her range for long enough that her slow wears off, which Ashe can easily counter by buying Boots of Swiftness. Oh. And Morgana, but she's a total bitch and doesn't care about hitboxes, CC or range.

LittleBlastMar 11, 20154 votes

So... she would become Kalista

CastaneanMar 11, 20154 votes

Yes, but with harder CC, permaslow, extra gold and no reliance on her support to do it.

... Oh, and no mobility, but that doesn't matter when your enemy can't move :3

rtbf209142555Mar 11, 20152 votes

Kalistas ulitily is way better

LittleBlastMar 11, 20152 votes

Not really, Kalista needs her oathsworn and it doesnt cc for as long

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Mar 11, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Not really, Kalista needs her oathsworn and it doesnt cc for as long

Except you can actually hit ashe with any sort of skillshot effortlessly.

DeusVultMar 11, 20154 votes

Jinx outranges her, and it doesn't invalidate melee champs, just melee champs that are 100% reliant on getting to you with no gapcloser.

And even they would be able to get to her if they didnt run right at her.

Ashe would still be the same, she would just deal more damage. Cait would outrange her. Corki would outdamage her. His passive is this, but permanent and true damage.

you exaggerated

DropFillMar 11, 20155 votes

{quoted}

First of all, you cut my post at the wrong places. The meaning of the parts you cut out were: "10% more damage on every basic attack because It's Ashe and she permaslows." and "Ashe would become meta and you'd see how strong 10% more damage is."

Please, allow me to go into a bit greater detail.

Ashe is a very long range ADC, all things considered. She can also perma-slow. Adding 10% damage on slowed ect. targets will essentially give Ashe 10% more permanent AD. Ashe is supposed to trade damage for utility. With this passive, Ashe's damage would in every sense rival that of nearly any other ADC. Now you have an ADC with a higher range, the highest natural attack speed in the game (tied with Vayne,)THE best utility (The whole reason she's good,) high damage, amazing kiting and chasing ability, 3 extra gold for every last hit and a skill that can scout Baron from the third Middle turret, if not further.

What is her weakness?

Also; This would also pretty much invalidate every single immobile champion, Jinx included. The only ones who'd be able to stick around would be the likes of Orianna or Lux(possibly) merely because they outrange Ashe, or the ones with heavy enough CC to be able to get out of her range for long enough that her slow wears off, which Ashe can easily counter by buying Boots of Swiftness. Oh. And Morgana, but she's a total bitch and doesn't care about hitboxes, CC or range.

Just to remember you, that jinx has 10% more damage on every basic AA with her rocket, that gives splash damage and range. Corki deals 10% more damage each basic attack regardless of CC or not... as TRUE DAMAGE But ashe would be broken with it? seems legit

LeeDarkMar 11, 20157 votes

You got only one thing right. Highest natural attack speed.

Best utility? WTF are you talking about?

Amazing kiting and chasing? You don understand she doesn't actually have mobility, right? She can kite ONE person, and she can't do it as well as Kalista or Vayne.

Jinx outranges Ashe, Corki has better burst, Vayne has more damage, Kalista has better kiting. If you increase Ashe's damage by 10%, she'd barely be viable. She'd still be lackluster overall, despite finally having the damage to be a real ADC.

SíggyMar 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Because it's Ashe. suddenly, you'll have to deal with Ashe becoming the meta

GOD CALL THE COPS , ASHE A VIABLE CHAMPION? NO WAY. Better deal with jinx and her BS aoe crits!

Ashe is already kinda viable.... like highest win rate viable.

TerffMar 11, 20155 votes

Then you learn that corki deals 10% of his AD as true damage which is better than just a 10% damage increase even with crits being amplified by 10%.

LeeDarkMar 11, 20153 votes

Ashe would still be a Marksman with no mobility whatsoever, and not the longest range. Her ult would still be useless thanks to Mikael's. She'd be stronger in low tier solo queue, for sure. A lot stronger, even. But she would not see serious competitive play.

Talon, on the other hand, COULD see competitive play with the switch, but I still think it is unlikely. He is still the assassin with no real escape. If the guaranteed crit gave him enough damage to kill someone without relying on both instances of his ult damage, he might be able to escape, and then he would see competitive play and probably get nerfed. I have to wonder if it would change his build, though.

PhriteMar 11, 20152 votes

Just wanted to point out that Ashe is meta. She's the ADC with the second highest win rate in plat+ atm.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=ADC

CastaneanMar 11, 20152 votes

I just want to point out that high win-percentage does not make a champion meta, high PLAY-percentage does, meaning Graves and Jinx are the meta right now.

If it was the other way around, Heimerdinger, Fiddlesticks and Sejuani would some of the most meta champions in the game, which quite honestly, I'm really glad ISN'T the case.

NorthernDruidMar 11, 20153 votes

Talon getting Ashe's passive makes somewhat sense.

Ashe with Talon's passive is just ridicolous.

I'd much prefer her passive be altered to either work more like Braum's passive, make her Q her passive (and get her a new and interesting Q), or make the crit more combat oriented (scaling +%crit chance when attacking the same target sounds kinda cool).

Her current passive is kinda ok though, if only it could get the slight buff of a shorter CD so it's easier to use.

TerffMar 11, 20156 votes

Eh, look at corki who deals 10% of his AD as true damage per AA for free while ashe only gets 10% damage boost that costs mana per auto attack, or jinx who gains tons of range and tons of damage for mana, I'd say it's pretty balanced for ashe.

RailiosMar 11, 20153 votes

10% on a 60 damage auto is 6 damage whats this ignorant mathless "OP" talk

OhOkYeaMar 10, 20152 votes

Talon is pretty useless regardless

DropFillMar 10, 201533 votes

{quoted}

Talon is pretty useless regardless

He is balanced

ForgiveColourMar 10, 20152 votes

how is talon balanced he is sleeper op, sheep only pick lcs champs

Mecha MaIphiteMar 11, 201514 votes

Shut up before they find out and nerf him.

Talon Talon Talon Talon Talon Talon Talon Talon

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 11, 20159 votes

Talon is probably the only assassin I can call balanced. I only tried him once in a bot match, and barely go against him, but still he's pretty good. There's unique risks if you set up something wrong, not to mention if you run out of mana halfway through your combo, you're screwed. One of the few assassins who still rely on mana...

HyperZEROXLMar 11, 20155 votes

Really agree here, Talon's one of the most balanced assassins in the game, he has a unique risk that I love. And his passive works well with him, I use it A LOT to do extra damage when I jump to a person in a lane and harass. It's useful, it fits him, he's balanced due to mana eating. He doesn't need a passive switch. I main him and I agree with you. +1

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 11, 20151 votes

If Katarina ran on mana, I would be fine with the resets, because you run out of mana eventually. It's like Tristana rocket jump. But Katarina has no costs whatsoever... And then she gets the love tap of having her passive with a time restriction like Jinx's. I honestly just want something to be used other than giving her cooldowns... Make her jump and ultimate have SUPER long cooldowns to make target prioritizing part of her skill... Not just running down bot lane to get ahead since (insert mid lane champion: Heimerdinger) isn't giving her any free wins.

Battlecast SonaMar 11, 20152 votes

They did increase the CD of her ultimate considerably at levels 1 and 2.

And the passive change was a pretty big deal - having to deal damage within the last 3 seconds instead of just getting an assist makes it much harder to get resets by sitting back and chucking daggers and such. You have to really be involved in the fight unless your team is already stomping without you.

Ace of BronzeMar 11, 20152 votes

Are you kidding? This would be way too good. I mean come on. Talon with 100% chance to Crit you. Make the calc, Q + TriForce + E % boost + Crit + IE, That's about 1800 dmg, and Ashe has perma slow so that is 10% dmg increase to everything, even her crits. pshh and people complain about riot's balancing.

DropFillMar 11, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Soul Bleach,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xc9MX7hH,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2015-03-11T13:32:52.972+0000)

Are you kidding? This would be way too good. I mean come on. with 100% chance to Crit you. Make the calc, Q + TriForce + E % boost + Crit + IE, That's about 1800 dmg, and has perma slow so that is 10% dmg increase to everything, even her crits. pshh and people complain about riot's balancing.

Corki and Jinx do 10% increased damage regardless their targets being CC'ed or not. But jinx does from a better range AND aoe, and corki does as true damage. But sure ashe would be totally broken, I see.

SwordArt0fflineMar 11, 20152 votes

Yeah but corki and jinx doesnt have near as much utility as ashe, i feel thats why ashe doesnt have as much dmg as tge other carries because she has great utility

DropFillMar 11, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but corki and jinx doesnt have near as much utility as ashe, i feel thats why ashe doesnt have as much dmg as tge other carries because she has great utility

Death is the best CC, and corki and jinx are way better than her at killing. Kalista has nearly the same amount of utility as ashe.

CrettMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Corki and Jinx do 10% increased damage regardless their targets being CC'ed or not. But jinx does from a better range AND aoe, and corki does as true damage. But sure ashe would be totally broken, I see.

In this case, Ashe would do more damage, as her bonus damage would be able to crit

DropFillMar 11, 20152 votes