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I refuse to believe that Kassadin is getting nerfed like he is when other BS mobility champs exist

Visigoth··74 votes·3,469 views

So Kassadin has too strong mobility? Poor guy has had his damage (and even his mobility) hit hard as hell because of his mobility. Meanwhile the following champions exist without being nerfed at all (in or ways that make no sense).

Leblanc Get 2 dashes at level 6 and 2 blinks. Gets 1 dash and blink at level 1 (level 3 minimum). Also has a slow with tons of damage and snare with a 100% totally accurate hitbox. Kalista How in the actual fuck did nobody at Riot think "maybe we shouldn't put this much mobility and damage on one ranged character" Riven 4 dashes, knock up, AD scaling shield, execute damage, stun, AD steroid, low cooldowns and no resource cost. That much in one person's kit, but you know, at least they aren't ranged Kalista. Nidalee Heal, AS buff (for use on any ally), spammable jump. Execute. Most annoying poke since the Lance was invented. LeeSin Utility on damage on CC on more damage on mobility. Escape nerfs because people said he would Urgot become Evelynn unplayable Yorick...

But Kassadin is just WAY too mobile for his lack of damage or any decent CC on top of his high mana costs and one of his primary damage sources require 6 abilities to be used near him.

63 Comments

SgtCrispy13 votes

I can accept a nerf to his ultimate, but a 42% reduction is pretty insane. I have no idea why they're hitting him so hard when he's not particularly a contested ban or pick right now.

BeatzBoyFTW2 votes

He kinda is in LCS right now.

SmokingPuffin10 votes

http://lol.gamepedia.com/2015_LCK_Spring/Scoreboards/Round_Robin/Overview

Riot balance decisions in this upcoming patch read list a who's who of what's being played in Korea. Don't be surprised to see Lissandra nerfs too.

Except Lee Sin, of course, Riot gives him a long leash.

Ariaflux1 votes

Top 3 P/B from LCS EU and LCS NA too...

http://lol.gamepedia.com/2015_EU_LCS_Spring/Scoreboards/Round_Robin/Overview

http://lol.gamepedia.com/2015_NA_LCS_Spring/Scoreboards/Round_Robin/Overview

lojician2 votes

She's a ranged top and an ice mage. I've been saying she's broken for ages now but I'll still be plenty surprised.

Oleandervine15 votes

{quoted}

She's a ranged top and an ice mage. I've been saying she's broken for ages now but I'll still be plenty surprised.

The thing is, Lissandra isn't broken by virtue of her kit - she's broken because mages have been shoved out of mid due to assassins and her passive helps mitigate her mana, which as we all know, was gutted in the rework of the mana system and the alterations of Athene's and Morellonomicon. The fact that she's now being used in top more than mid is no fault of her own, just the way the game has changed. Bruisers naturally can't deal with a short range mage like Lissandra, no more than they can deal with Annie, Ryze, or Cassiopeia. This fact that these mages are moving lanes is a sore testament to the health of mid lane right now, and they don't particularly deserve to have their kits gutted when they weren't the initial cause of the problem to begin with. Riot needs to focus on fixing the mana and manaless assassin problem before addressing the kits of the displaced mages.

lojician2 votes

Um... no. Mages are being played top lane because they're better than fighters even in an environment that should favor the fighters. It has nothing to do with what's being played in mid lane (which is still often a mage). That's why you see double ap comps and why you see mage mids much more than fighter tops in pro play.

Like say every assassin is deleted from the game. What exactly do you think is going to happen? "Oh we noticed lissandra facerolls top lane while outscaling all the fighters there. But I guess we'll just never play her up there again and let fighters back into the meta since middle is officially a 'mage' lane now"

rinsujo3 votes

an environment that should favor the fighters.

Haven't seen many mages jungle. Otherwise, Lanes are lanes are lanes. Only difference between mid and top is the distance, and the only time that matters is when you die. Heck, I'll bet theoretically, with all the assassins going mid now, fighters mid might be a decent counterpick, if they can survive the level 6 burst easier than a mage. But that's Meta-based strategy, not game-based.

lojician2 votes

That's not true. Outer lanes differ from mid by being longer meaning you have more distance to all in someone with sustained damage before they run back to their turret, being more gankable meaning tankyness was historically desirable though with all the stupid mobile ranged champions now this is less important, having side bushes meaning you're not permanently in a ranged character's radius unless they ward, and being farther from base meaning mana gating on ranged poke is more restrictive and sustain is more valuable.

Fighters would be better at laning vs assassins than some mages but it doesn't really matter since fighters suck so much lategame. And you would need to be sure it's a melee assassin mid or you just get facerolled by a ranged champion even harder than you would top lane.

rinsujo1 votes

...well alright, i stand corrected.

Kobila20002 votes

Lissandra is played top for the simple reason that she's outranged by a lot of mages mid. Same reason why Ryze and Kennen were popular toplaners and why Annie is played support.

lojician1 votes

That's so stupid. She's not played top because she can't be played mid. She's played top because she's better than other champions at top. It's not even true she can't be played mid, pros play her there too.

Kobila20003 votes

She's played mid because she counters Zed. She's outranged by most others and lacks damage. Any ranged champion who goes top goes there because they can compete with top laners and rangers naturally have an advantage over melees. That goes without saying. When they can't compete with top laners, their pick rates tend to take a nosedive.

TrentBatNA8 votes

The reason Riot nerfed Kassadin is to pretend that they are opposed against mobility creep, without nerfing their favorite champions.

thinking man4 votes

{quoted}

The reason Riot nerfed Kassadin is to pretend that they are opposed against mobility creep, without nerfing their favorite champions.

Kassadin's too old to be an example of mobility creep.

I'd like to say that you guys are really overexaggerating Kassadin's weakness but I'm still confused why there's all of this shit like Kalista/Nid that isn't nerfed yet while Kass is so I won't complain.

Champion Skin3 votes

Yeah... Nidalee have a 750 ranged gap closer (with hunted) which only has 5 seconds cooldown (without CDR) for no mana cost....

Mandang02 votes

Far from me to defend Nid, but people really need to understand the differences in conditionality between Kass's mobility and Nid's. Kass can use his anytime, anywhere. Nid needs to mark something with hunted 1st, then can only jump to that target (if it's in range). If you're talking about non-hunt pounce, the range is still much shorter than riftwalk.

Also, are we really trying to defend a champ's balance by saying it's not Nidalee? Cmon.

rinsujo2 votes

Kass can use his anytime, anywhere.

Post six, as long as the CD is up (granted, it's short enough that it usually is) as long as he has the mana. Granted, I won't complain about Nidalee's mobility either, it's conditional enough that I don't feel it's too overbearing. (Haven't had to deal with her in the jungle yet, thank god.) I don't like the Kass nerf. I think it's the wrong thing to be nerfing, his iconic, unique ability, instead of nerfing, say, his damage on his other abilities. Riot seems to be nerfing unique attributes too much, so we end up with X number of generic champs competing for a mid slot rather than each champ having a unique identity. I had hoped with the jungle changes being towards lots of unique interactions rather than 4 identical camps and 2 buffs, that we might start seeing the same in champ select. Sadly, this doesn't seem to be the case.

Eraest971 votes

Thank all the Riot gods that you haven't had to deal with Nidalee jungle!

Onegarion2 votes

While I get that its conditional I really don't think its a far range. The ability to jump that far even for a condition (that really isn't hard to get) is rather absurd imo. Thats an instant fight AND she can use it again (not at the same range) if the opponent doesn't have any long range escapes (Liss E). I've hated this part of her new kit ever since they made it. Nid is a big force in why top lane has changed to what it is.

Mandang01 votes

I don't disagree - but that same absurd range is what Kassadin's coming down from (on an unconditional skill), so I really can't understand why people seem offended that Riot would nerf it.

demoniclich21 votes

It's unconditional 3-4 (maybe 5 times). Nid's is 1/2 distance permanently unconditional and MORE than current Kass conditional. This 65% of previous amount of jump is absurd.

Mandang01 votes

Well, maybe if Kass hadn't been in the top-10 most banned champs for over a year now, Riot wouldn't have had to take such drastic measures.

I for one applaud them for finally showing some urgency in balancing their game. No one should remain so heavily banned for so long. Regardless of whether you think the bans are indicative of power level, you have a very loud message from your playerbase that they dislike dealing with one of your champs, which is something a designer should listen to.

rinsujo1 votes

Meanwhile, in jungle...

Mandang01 votes

So Riot can never nerf anything so long as one other overpowered champ exists?

Why can't people just see this for what it is? It's Riot getting one nerf target right & still having more targets to hit. It's not Riot persecuting the Kassadin playerbase (they must really hate Kass players because they let Kass be ban-worthy for years now, right?). It's not Riot only balancing Kass (other assassin nerfs JUST happened).

It's Riot actually taking off the kid gloves and giving a significant problem a significant solution. No more attack speed nerfs for Zed, no more Kat remakes, no more tweaking Ahri for the umpteenth time

...and we're supposed to think that's a BAD thing? Get out.

rinsujo1 votes

Riot can nerf whatever they like. They've shown that by nerfing Sona while Nami is stronger, J4 while Lee is stronger, and now Kassadin while Xerath is stronger. My concern is that if they're going to be nerfing, nerf the worst offenders first, rather than nerfing the middle-ground champs leaving only strong and weak. Nerf the strong, Buff the weak, bring more champs to a middle ground AND KEEP THEIR DISTINCTIONS.

Kassadin was defined by his Mobility - he's one of the oldest champs who had that distinction. Now most champs are ridiculously mobile, and kassadin is.... a mage with his mobility on his ult. If Kass needed nerfs, hit his q. Tweak his e. If you must change his ult, fine, but do it gently. Not this.

Mandang01 votes

First, I wouldn't compare Kass and Xerath - they operate very differently. Your other comparisons are much more appropriate, though I'd disagree about Lee being stronger than J4.

As far as keeping distinctions: Riot's tried to do this with Kass for over a year now, and it's not working. Also, people are talking like his mobility's gone - it's not, and Nidalee's conditional hunted pounce isn't the same thing, not by a long shot. His ult still offers low-cooldown mobility, he'll still be able to appear from nowhere and turn 1v1's into 2v1's, he'll still be able to jump in, Zhonya's, jump out... he's just getting a nerf to the area that players actually found obnoxious, which I can't fault Riot on. Distinctions are one thing, healthiness/fun to play against is another.

rinsujo1 votes

It was a bit of a stretch on that comparison. I probably shouldve left it out. Couldn't think of anyone on the spot. For someone who was known for his ult and almost exclusively his ult, a 35-40% range cut feels like a lot. Is it still mobile, yes. Can he still jump some walls, yes. But that distinctive ult of his is less distinctive now. He feels less like "kassadin" and more like "mobile-ult aoe ap bruiser champ" I find Kalista obnoxious - I don't feel that removing her hops would fix her, i think her hops are part of who she is - her damage should be tweaked to allow her to remain Kalista, instead of changing her mobility. I find Lee obnoxious - I think his scalings should be adjusted so he can remain Lee, a mobile assassin BUT who has to actually choose between tank or assassin, not get both. Champs should keep their identity, and have damage adjustments to keep them healthy, rather than keeping damage and losing out on distinctive identity to try and balance them.

Mandang01 votes

Well, I think you, me, and Riot would all agree that keeping distinct identities keeps the game diverse. However, they've been trying to balance Kass in that way for the last 2 years, and players still spend one of their (increasingly precious) ban slots on him. I think some identities can be harmful for the game, and I think Kass's is one of them.

I also think Kalista's hops are unhealthy for the future design direction of the game, as it all but requires mobility creep to keep up. Personally, I find her design is really interesting for her oathsworn interactions, and really wouldn't mind seeing her hops go away so more power budget could go into her buddy system play.

The problem I think a lot of players have in assessing Kassadin's problem is that they'll only focus on his position among the rest of the hypermobile champs, and won't realize what their current strength does for all the immobile champs in the game. Riot could fix this by making everyone mobile, but then what's next? Once you've released Yasuo as the new face of melee ADC, what's your next melee ADC going to get? More dashes? Better damage passives? A better ult? This is why I don't think Kalista is healthy for the game - Riot's designing themselves into a corner. Kassadin doesn't have the same problem, but his mobility is going to lead to mobility creep so long as Riot leaves him untouched.

rinsujo1 votes

I certainly agree mobility creep is unhealthy. Unfortunately, at this point, it's far enough that something has to be introduced for it to become healthy again. Whether that's an item, or a new form of CC, somehow a new cost has to be introduced for mobility to be re-balanced. I'm not arguing that Kass's ult should have been left completely alone. I think a nerf to his ult could be justified - but I feel that this specific nerf is too drastic. Maybe 600 is a better number. Maybe 550. I just feel that cutting his range nearly in half is too much. But trying to keep every champ better than the last leads to power creep - part of the reason I'm glad Riot moved away from releasing champs as often as they used to. As long as each champ gets a semi-unique niche, power creep isn't something we have to worry about as much since champs will naturally start to counter each other through differing strengths.

demoniclich21 votes

There is a difference in style. Where nid can pounce indefinitely to get around the map, the initiate, to kite, to chase (and then mark and chase faster), Kass only has enough mana to save it to get one initiation and then do his best with the little mana he has left (assuming he didn't die) to escape. Ya. Very different. Nid>>> Kass in mobility. And once this patch hits, not even a contest.

Mandang01 votes

If all you want to argue is whether Nid's costs less mana, then there's nothing to say.

It's when people cry about Nid's gapcloser outdistancing Kass's, while ignoring the conditionality that's required to make that true...that's what I'm talking about.

Drunken Mutt1 votes

This is how they determine what makes a champ unhealthy nerf each part of him until they find the source then rebuild him.

AbiwonKenabi5 votes

Ahhh...Remember the days when we used to complain about Kassadin? We used to cry for Kass nerfs....I remember when he was permabanned like it was just yesterday.....

Onegarion3 votes

I remember those days. When if kass got through the captain was reported because of it. Also when a kass could destroy your team faster than zed/lb/talon combined. Those were the days.

Aroha Mai4 votes

You forgot the worst offender.

Lissandra

Junkο4 votes

Not really, LB outshines her so hard.

Knight SoIaire 3 votes

lb has better jumps but lisandra has immerse cc

Junkο3 votes

In a thread about mobility Lissandra is nothing

Knight SoIaire 3 votes

in a thread about paying for mobility

Junkο5 votes

How does LB pay for her mobility? She can blink back instantly if she wants too, and she has better burst damage than Lissandra on a lower cooldown.

Drunken Mutt2 votes

LB is easy to go against on lissandra. Level 2 the second she jumps snare then q you punish her hard for poking then poke her behind her minions.

Quort3 votes

LeBlanc has terrible wave clear unless she's willing to use her escape as well as a large part of her burst. Also, LeBlanc's return pads indicate where she will teleport back to so it's not as if you can't plan for it. She has terrible sustain as well if she's being too liberal with her skill usage. In my opinion, since losing her silence, she's become fairly healthy.

Onegarion1 votes

But death is the best kind of CC and Lb blows up targets better, faster, and more consistently.

lojician3 votes

It's because he's melee with short ranged spells and has to use his mobility to engage to be useful. Retarded mobility is only acceptable on ranged champions who will use it to give the middle finger to classes riot doesn't like by doing their jobs from unreachable safety.

Lee gets to keep his because bigplay$.

Jofeyy3 votes

I dont even play kassadin and i still think this nerf is ridiculous

Jhin Bot2 votes

whats funny is kass actually doesnt even beat mages on live atm, hes better vs ad champs so he can do blue build and they're just gutting him even more, they will probably buff him a patch or two later making blue build even stronger and forcing him to be a bruiser for life

Tentakill Myself2 votes

Fizz You Akali Seem Ahri To RekSai Have Yasuo Forgotten Vi Some Zed Mobile Udyr Champions MasterYi

BerserkInferno1 votes

{quoted}

Fizz You Akali Seem Ahri To RekSai Have Yasuo Forgotten Vi Some Zed Mobile Udyr Champions MasterYi

Dude. How did you forget Elise, LeeSin, Kalista, Leblanc, Khazix, Katarina, Rengar, Nidalee, Vayne, Diana and of course, Kalista ?

Vistha Kai2 votes

Remember the days when Leblanc was balanced? When she had to max Q first to deal damage, had mana cost on ult and it's damage was based on maxed ability.

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