This WAS an outplay. Don't be fooled.

The Ecdysiast··20 votes·4,932 views

Edit 2: The point of this is to show you that you shouldn't just blindly agree with liars. If you pay attention to the clip, you can see that both imaqtpie and anyone trying to use this particular clip to claim Zoe's unbalanced are simply missing the fact he screwed up. He had plenty of outs and knew full well there were two spells for her to pick up.

To preface, you may have a different opinion on what constitutes an outplay. As for me, I think it doesn't just include spectacular plays, but also encompasses using the enemy's mistakes to your advantage. The latter is what happened here.

https://clips.twitch.tv/EnchantingDullYamKappaClaus

imaqtpie's mistakes, in order:

  1. Failed to notice the ignite on the ground.
  2. Didn't use his E at all during the fight.
  3. Opted to stay and fight with the minions already cleared, despite both of them having only one full item (which with the ADC item changes puts him at a distinct disadvantage) and her being a level up. He not only had time to just walk away, but also had his flash and another charge of his E even if he had used it before.
  4. At 6 seconds he misclicks, throwing his bouncing grenade at a minion. And since Zoe was mid-cast of her R, she was actually not in range for the grenade to bounce to her.
  5. 8 seconds in he misses his W, losing both the damage and his chance to escape.
  6. Held his fourth auto and issued non-attack movement commands instead of attempting to fire the fourth shot which might have killed her. Though granted Redemption may have saved her anyway.

At the time of his death, Zoe had 254 HP. With Zoe's 44.4 armor, Jhin's Q if he hadn't misclicked would have dealt 175 damage. If he had clicked it half a second later, so as to get the bounce damage, it would have dealt 236 damage instead.

254 - 175 = 79, or 254 - 236 = 18

If he had landed his W, it would have dealt 132 damage. More than enough to win him the fight before the Redemption finished casting, without even needing that last auto attack.

But he missed both.

This was an actual outplay. Popular streamers whining about actually getting outplayed as if the champion is to blame when they make boneheaded mistakes like this shouldn't be taken at face value without scrutinizing.


Edit: It's important to keep in mind he is a level 8, one-item Jhin and had Hail of Blades. Any other ADC would have won that fight, as they'd have gotten three attacks off with Hail and wouldn't have their free Stormrazor crits reduced further than Stormrazor's already reduces them. And even Jhin would have won the fight if it occured when both had more items, because she'd take a much harsher penalty for missing her abilities than him. But the matchup and point of the game in which it happened put it in Zoe's favor. A Brand or Lux with only their passives, electrocute, and two abilities landed would have won this too. It's not about Zoe.

It's actually more ridiculous that the fight was so close, because Jhin dealt damage from ZERO out of his four abilities, only got one auto with his AD increased by Hail of Blades, and only hit 4 autos TOTAL.

You can't say it's unfair that Zoe won when she properly went in for the fight after seeing the ignite on the ground, used her W, passive, and ultimate correctly, but then pretend it's perfectly fine that he landed 0/4 abilities, only four auto attacks, but was only one auto from winning the fight instead. That's just blatant bias.

TL;DR: The focus of this is still don't be fooled by lies and go along with it based on bias.

56 Comments

Yenn24 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-02T01:45:44.017+0000)

Failed to notice the ignite on the ground.

Right, if Zoe ever picks up an Ignite, you just have to leave the lane because you're automatically OuTpLaYeD!!!!11!1 xD if you stay

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-02T01:45:44.017+0000)

Didn't use his E at all during the fight.

His E would have done absolutely nothing. There's no reason to use it, and the animation for throwing it will clip into his autos, making it detrimental at worst.

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-02T01:45:44.017+0000)

Opted to stay and fight with the minions already cleared, despite both of them having only one full item (which with the ADC item changes puts him at a distinct disadvantage) and her being a level up. He not only had time to just walk away, but also had his flash and another charge of his E even if he had used it before.

'Hurr durr his fault for thinking he could 1v1 a champion with roughly equal gold after they missed all of their skill shots.' See 1.

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-02T01:45:44.017+0000)

At 6 seconds he misclicks, throwing his bouncing grenade at a minion. And since Zoe was mid-cast of her R, she was actually not in range for the grenade to bounce to her.

Zoe wasn't mid-cast, she hit R after he had started throwing the grenade. It's not instant.

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-02T01:45:44.017+0000)

8 seconds in he misses his W, losing both the damage and his chance to escape.

Zoe dodged it. You can't hit W on Zoe here unless she's handicapped, she has at least 30% increased movement speed. There's a distinct difference between missing and being dodged.

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-02T01:45:44.017+0000)

Held his fourth auto and issued non-attack movement commands instead of attempting to fire the fourth shot which might have killed her.

Completely false, he did not hold his fourth auto, his AA timer was up as he died.

Jhin should have won this, mage are normally supposed to have a window of vulnerability after they whiff their skill shots.

I'm not sure why this is being upvoted, this is a terrible analysis by someone who doesn't understand Jhin and is primarily based on 'lmao you got outplayed for being anywhere around Zoe and it's totally fine that she can kill you without landing any skill shots.' I lost brain cells.

The Ecdysiast5 votes
  1. He had no reason to stay. He'd already cleared the minions and knew didn't have heal up. Generally if any champ has ignite and you're already at both a level and item disadvantage, it's not a good idea to stick around them. Especially stupid to do so when they don't even have the ignite until they pick it up.

  2. He could have slowed her to land his W. And considering his base auto attack speed, no, it wouldn't have clipped into his autos.

  3. If you make the mistake of thinking you can 1v1 a champion who still has ignite, Electrocute, and three abilities to use as early Jhin with a single item and Hail of Blades for only one attack, that's on you.

  4. I meant she was at the other portal-- hence in the middle of the ability. She was out of range when the grenade finished its flight time, so it didn't bounce.

  5. As I said before, his wide AoE slow couldn't helped him zone and/or slow her to land his W. Not sure why you'd contradict yourself by acting like that wasn't an option.

  6. I said might, since I was unsure. Either way, he wasn't entirely committed to the fight, and kept spacing his autos out too much. When he didn't have the time to get a second auto with Hail of Blades, he should've committed to running.

Jhin should not have won this. Any other ADC with stormrazor's and Hail would have. But Jhin does not have the attack speed to do so, had to reload after the first Hail attack, and the conversion of his AS to AD isn't enough with only one item. If this were anyone but Jhin, he would've won the fight much sooner and this thread wouldn't exist.

He was outplayed for wrongfully thinking Jhin could take on ANY champion who still had two abilities, ignite, and electrocute. An AP Electrocute Taric would have beat him in that fight, to give a truly outrageous example. But more related, Brand or Lux with just their E's and R's would have won, too.

A valiant failed attempt to dispute my points, but try not to be so biased against a champ you simply don't like.

flibitydoo5 votes

You just confirmed his 1st point with your 1st point there though

if the counterplay to a champion is to never interact with them and stand on the opposite side of the map, that's not counterplay, that's one champion being blatantly overpowered relative to another.

chipndip11 votes

The Zoe is stronger than Jhin at one item, though.

This is like saying "Man, Zed's 1/1/2 with Ignite. I, an Ashe that's 1/1/2, should 1v1 that guy". EVERYONE knows that's stupid, so why is it NOT stupid now?

OatheSworn4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-08-02T02:36:48.323+0000)

  1. He had no reason to stay. He'd already cleared the minions and knew didn't have heal up. Generally if any champ has ignite and you're already at both a level and item disadvantage, it's not a good idea to stick around them. Especially stupid to do so when they don't even have the ignite until they pick it up.

You haven't given the slightest thought towards: generally if any champ (even more so for a mage) has missed their main damage abilities and you still have all of yours up, including the fact that you are an auto-based champion that has guaranteed hits on top of you being Jhin of all champions, it's fair to say you likely have the advantage.

  1. He could have slowed her to land his W. And considering his base auto attack speed, no, it wouldn't have clipped into his autos.

Slowed her with a trap? As if she would have walked into that and even then, the increased movespeed that her W granted her would have rendered the slow basically useless and at best, just slowed her to her original movespeed.

  1. If you make the mistake of thinking you can 1v1 a champion who still has ignite, Electrocute, and three abilities to use as early Jhin with a single item and Hail of Blades for only one attack, that's on you.

Hail of Blades is not for only one attack, it's the next 3 autos. Zoe is widely renown for being a one-shot, EQ combo champion. She just missed her main "I just blew you up" abilities. It's fair to think that you have an advantage against that.

  1. I meant she was at the other portal-- hence in the middle of the ability. She was out of range when the grenade finished its flight time, so it didn't bounce.

Yes, and the timing for her R was purely coincidence. She did not R with the intention of dodging his grenade, it was to auto with her passive proc.

  1. As I said before, his wide AoE slow couldn't helped him zone and/or slow her to land his W. Not sure why you'd contradict yourself by acting like that wasn't an option.

The trap, like Teemo's, takes a second to arm. It doesn't immediately proc. If he places it directly on top of you while you are moving that fast, it would not have triggered. The slow wouldn't have come into effect and to accurately place it in front of her path by predicting her movements? That takes some god-level skill--or luck.

  1. I said might, since I was unsure. Either way, he wasn't entirely committed to the fight, and kept spacing his autos out too much. When he didn't have the time to get a second auto with Hail of Blades, he should've committed to running.

Jhin should not have won this. Any other ADC with stormrazor's and Hail would have. But Jhin does not have the attack speed to do so, had to reload after the first Hail attack, and the conversion of his AS to AD isn't enough with only one item. If this were anyone but Jhin, he would've won the fight much sooner and this thread wouldn't exist.

He was outplayed for wrongfully thinking Jhin could take on ANY champion who still had two abilities, ignite, and electrocute. An AP Electrocute Taric would have beat him in that fight, to give a truly outrageous example. But more related, Brand or Lux with just their E's and R's would have won, too.

Those 2 abilities you mentioned aren't even her main damage, especially her R. All it was used for there was for passive proc (and coincidentally dodging his Q). Zoe's Q damage is the way it is because that's her main damage, it's the way she was designed.

A valiant failed attempt to dispute my points, but try not to be so biased against a champ you simply don't like.

Actually, you are more inclining towards Zoe. If a mage can miss both her main damage spells and kill a target by simply proc'ing passive and using a W, you have more bias than he has, like or not.

chipndip11 votes
  1. QT could have threw grenade on Zoe. He decided to Q a minion. That's QT's fault.

  2. Why would QT even try to W here at that range? Like you said, odds are he won't land it (since he isn't using E anyway). If he didn't bother using W, he'd have time for his 4th shot...which has an execute attached to it...which could have possibly won him the fight.

  3. Zoe landed W on the guy twice, a Luden's proc, Ignite, and like 3 passive-laced AAs. Jhin, however, AA'd her 3 times. Why on Earth would Jhin win? Zoe committed way harder to the fight than QT did, seeing how QT managed to miss a targeted ability.

  4. Not every champion is designed the exact same. Some mages are super vulnerable after whiffing. Others are Syndra or Veigar who have massive targeted nukes. Others are Ryze or Cassiopia who have really low cds to rely on. Others are Vlad who don't have much to whiff. This one is Zoe. Treat the situation as such.

Shakyasu8 votes

[deleted]

The Ecdysiast4 votes

Her missing the skillshots had nothing to do with the outplay. An outplay doesn't have to mean the opponent played spectacularly, it can also mean they abused your mistakes.

As it is, she did a wonderful job of abusing all the mistakes he made that could've won him the fight. Not noticing the ignite was a big one, as it and her W were the majority of her damage. And I even laid out the math for you to show how missing both his damaging abilities cost him the fight.

If you want to complain about anything, complain about the fact Electrocute allowed her to deal kill damage while missing abilities. Electrocute would be the issue, not Zoe.

PhDs Nuts1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-08-02T01:58:37.983+0000)

Not noticing the ignite was a big one

It doesn't matter if he noticed it or not (which I'm sure he did). Jhin doesn't have the priority to zone Zoe off of anything, ever. That puts him out of position to be hit by an easy sleep bubble. Being closer to Jhin is never a disadvantage for any champion if they're already in range to be hit by an autoattack.

Morticianjohn7 votes

Using your definition of "outplay" any time a fight is won someone was "outplayed".

I am under the impression that many fights are won based on a.) stat checks b.) macro decisions c.) mistakes

These types of wins are not "outplays"

If the fight is favored by one side and the other side wins then it is "outplay".

ChargeItDownMid6 votes

[deleted]

chipndip11 votes

Are you joking? The dude's few mistakes were way more pivotal to his success/failure. Like...if he just Q'd HER instead of a minion she'd have died to his fourth shot. If he didn't waste time on W (which missed), he'd have had time to shoot his fourth shot and maybe kill her. Sure, Zoe missed two spells, too, but she landed W on him twice, anyway, so she didn't just "AA him to death" like people think she did. This on top of the Luden's splash, and Electrocute, and Ignite. If QT played it straight instead of fucking up a bunch of random shit, he'd have won.

Shakyasu5 votes

[deleted]

The Ecdysiast5 votes

Nah, I just don't like people blatantly lying on the boards. It's a big part of why Riot doesn't take complaints seriously.

I had a hunch that he actually could have won that fight, and so I did the math and found out it proved my hunch. If I had been wrong be even 1 damage, I wouldn't have posted the thread.

AmonTheFallen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-08-02T01:50:00.931+0000)

Nah, I just don't like people blatantly lying on the boards. It's a big part of why Riot doesn't take complaints seriously.

I had a hunch that he actually could have won that fight, and so I did the math and found out it proved my hunch. If I had been wrong be even 1 damage, I wouldn't have posted the thread.

Damn you are dilusional.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Damn you are dilusional.

It's delusional to continue to lie and deny the truth when I even did the math for you. Your bias against Zoe means nothing when compared to the facts.

ModWuks5 votes

I haven’t checked the math myself, but have an https://i.imgur.com/xtUX6s9.png[/img] for the pretty lengthy analysis

FOR JUSTICE1 votes

Same lol

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Jhin's Q at rank 4 with 214 AD is 120 base + 214(0.625) = 254 total damage.

Armor calculation would be 254 x ( 1 / 1 + (zoe's armor of 44)) = 175 damage.

To find the increase if that minion-killing bounce had hit, you can either multiply the initial 254 by 1.35 and calculate armor after, or just multiply the end result of 175 by 1.35, either way the result is 236.

His W at rank 2 with 214 AD is 85 base + 214(0.5) = 192, factor for armor 192(0.69) = 132.

I was planning on half-assing it without the armor, but I didn't want to post a thread pointing out something was a lie without being completely 100% honest and accurate with my calculations.

wildfox995 votes

there is no outplay here

they both missplayed,but zoe is more forgiving so she won anyway

since they both missplayed and missed pretty much everything they should have ended up not to being able to kill each other,but a mage that missed every of her main spells still can 100-0,looks fair

on top of that zoe started the fight with less health than jhin (she ate a crit just before they started to fight) so in a real 1 vs 1 without poke before jhin had to hit everything for winning against a zoe that missed everything

i hate ADCs as much as i hate zoe so i'm pretty much unbiased here,jhin did too much damage considering he missed everything but zoe is idiot-proof

Slythion4 votes

You're points are either irrelevant, nonsensical, or false, as Yenn has already explained...why is this being upvoted

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Not a single one of my points was irrelevant. I would hope with the extensive proof I provided, they wouldn't be nonsensical. And no, every objective thing I said was true. You can argue that my opinion that this was an "outplay" isn't correct, but I said nothing objectively false. I even took the time to factor armor into my calculations so they couldn't be disputed.

You can go look at my response to Yenn's comment for my rebuttal. I hope it makes things clearer for you.

Slythion2 votes

you stated that Zoe "picked up" an ignite and that is somehow an outplay on QT, that's quite nonsensical

You stating that he didn't use E is irrelevant, as it wouldn't have made a difference in the fight

You stating that he "held onto" his 4th shot is false, as his attack timer was still down

so yes, you most certainly had irrelevant, nonsensical, and false points. Was either side played perfectly? No, but if you want to take things that completely literal rather than take away the obvious point that an artillary mage can miss all of her skillshots and still dish out enough damage to 1v1 a champion then you're just looking to argue and not debate. There isn't a single other mage out there that can miss every skillshot and still get the kill, except maybe Syndra or...probably just Syndra tbh.

Sure, electrocute, ignite, and ludens did the majority of the damage but there isn't another artillery mage who can pick up ignite and proc ludens while missing everything. Hell, there are barely any mages in general who both take ignite and proc electrocute reliably while missing everything, and even if so they probably don't have their free damage do as much as Zoe's W nor do they probably get her movement speed.

Zoe is toxic and riddled with awful champion design, I really don't understand how anyone can sympathize for her

chipndip11 votes

You don't think SOMETHING is wrong when you're agreeing with YENN of all people?

Like, if Yenn is ever on a side of an argument, that's your cue to just not be there.

Jamaree3 votes

I think my favorite part about this post and one of my favorite comments was "I hate how she can just AA people down and kill them, I wish ADCs were strong again."

Ummmmm.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

Lol.

Aside from the obvious contradiction in that statement, there's another part that makes it funny. Jhin is does not function like an ADC. He is an AD Caster. If he been any other ADC, then Hail of Blades would've worked.

Jinzo Torrance3 votes

Outplay? What are you talking about? So if I'm Viktor and I'm chasing a Lee Sin and he ward jumps over the wall to escape me that means he just outplayed me? No he didn't, he just has a more mobile kit than mine so he can avoid fighting me.

Same as Zoe, she has just more braindead-proof unavoidable damage in her kit/runes/items after she misses everything than a Jhin does, that's more close to a stat check than an outplay in that regard given that Jhin also missed his abilities and he's a right clicker.

Point 2 doesn't make sense, why would Jhin stand still to cast it instead of kiting the Zoe into his minion wave and why would Zoe walk on it after she sees both the cast animation, the travel animation and arm timer of the trap? I have a pretty low opinion of Zoe players but that's a bit ridiculous.

Point 3: Why would he not fight in his own coming minion wave + 2 caster creeps left? Uh? After Zoe misses two of her spells you would think that you would've an edge on her if she overextends in your minion wave to fight you with only a level 1 spell remaining.

Point 5: Uhm, she has 437 MS? That's arguably more her bothering to click away from Jhin W than Jhin missing given that it also has a delay and an indicator.

Point 6 is wrong, you can see Jhin going in idle animation instead of firing instantly because his auto timer is not ready yet, and he weaves abilities between his other autos because Stormraiza will make his autos hit 20% harder.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

An outplay doesn't have to mean the opponent did something spectacular. I include the opponent simply abusing your mistakes as well.

You seem extremely biased towards hating Zoe here.

What's more ridiculous than Zoe, who lucked out with that ignite being there since it wasn't a drop from a minion and only missed two abilities, winning the fight is the fact Jhin got her so low at all when he didn't get any benefit from any one of his abilities.

PhDs Nuts3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2018-08-02T06:24:44.622+0000)

What's more ridiculous than Zoe, who lucked out with that ignite being there since it wasn't a drop from a minion and only missed two abilities, winning the fight is the fact Jhin got her so low at all when he didn't get any benefit from any one of his abilities.

He's an ADC. What's ridiculous is that a mage doesn't need to hit any active abilities to win a slap fight against an auto-attacking champion. Imagine Ahri only using her W and winning in the same fashion.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

He is NOT an ADC. He functions like a caster. Any other ADC would have won the fight and much sooner, as they'd have gotten the full use out of both Hail and Stormrazor, where he is penalized for using both.

Actually, if he had Electrocute instead of Hail and landed his abilities he would have won the fight. You can't just sit there and claim Zoe's overpowered for using her W and ultimate properly, then say it's fair Jhin only landed 4 auto attacks and none of his abilities but almost got a 1 for 1.

OatheSworn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=000e000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-02T06:35:04.096+0000)

He is NOT an ADC. He functions like a caster. Any other ADC would have won the fight and much sooner, as they'd have gotten the full use out of both Hail and Stormrazor, where he is penalized for using both.

Actually, if he had Electrocute instead of Hail and landed his abilities he would have won the fight. You can't just sit there and claim Zoe's overpowered for using her W and ultimate properly, then say it's fair Jhin only landed 4 auto attacks and none of his abilities but almost got a 1 for 1.

Jhin's abilities are important, but his main damage is in his autos. The reason why his attack speed can't be increased is for that specific reason, he has a ton of damage, but that's the price it comes at.

Cosnirak3 votes

None of that matters. What matters is that Zoe had the damage to kill him from the hp he was at despite missing all of her skill shots in that amount of time, which isn't ok. Doesn't matter if he could've killed her, doesn't matter if he shouldn't have been there.

All that matters is that at those gold amounts and levels and starting hit points in the fight she should not be able to do that much damage by just hitting with what she hit with. The problem isn't Zoe, the problem is damage.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

The problem isn't the opponent's damage, either. Any mage with a damaging passive would have beat Jhin in that fight. Luden's is simply a better item than Stormrazer's for the point of the game at which it's the only item. Since Jhin functions as a delayed caster, not an attack-speed based champion, neither his item nor his Keystone are good for his early game.

Perhaps Aery would have faired better for him, given the circumstances. But there really isn't a keystone that buffs Jhin's early game the way Electrocute does for burstier champions. It's down to the fact he got 1/3rd the benefit out of his keystone that anyone else would have, landed 0/4 abilities, and opted to stay in a fight he would have lost regardless of the opponent.

Cosnirak1 votes

You're still completely missing the point. It's not about Jhin vs Zoe. It's about the fact that any champion can do that amount of damage while actually doing so little from their own kit. Nerf the damage of electrocute, luden's proc, and/or ignite by merely reasonable amounts and suddenly no one dies in that fight at all, as it should have been.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Then that just devolves your point into, "damage is too damn high."

Which I don't really agree with. Considering Rengar can kill you in under one second for a majority of a match, this was an extremely long fight.

You can't just claim no one would have died if those were lowered, seeing as she would have had her main damage abilities back up.

No one would have died if he had made the correct choice of running.

Cosnirak1 votes

Then that just devolves your point into, "damage is too damn high."

Yeah, that's the point...

Which I don't really agree with.

Well you're wrong.

chipndip11 votes

That wasn't a LARGE amount of burst damage to begin with. That whole thing was drug out almost ten full seconds. Ten seconds of fighting between two champions that are building full damage and 0 resistances. How long should a fight last?

Cosnirak1 votes

That wasn't a LARGE amount of burst damage to begin with.

Yeah, because she missed all her skill shots.

Ten seconds of fighting between two champions that are building full damage and 0 resistances. How long should a fight last?

Longer than that when they miss that many things.

Sirsir2 votes

TLDR Both people missed their skills. One continued to fight. That person won. Whoda thunk.

Most of the damage that fight didn't even come from Zoes W and passive, but from Ignite, Ludens and Electrocute (which probably needs an early game nerf). i'd guesstimate about 1/3 of it game from W bolts and passive autos. Maybe half. Maybe OP can get the math on me cuz all I saw in this clip is a dozen numbers at once...

The real kicker is the Zoe V Yasuo Clip that was up this morning. 2:59 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjNYulv9C5Q&feature=youtu.be

Not super fed, same problem. W active, Ludens and a few Aery procs doing lots of work

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Yeah, pretty much. He spent the whole time half-committed to the fight and lost it.

I wouldn't exactly agree that Electrocute needs a nerf though. I'd say the biggest issue is that he had Hail of Blades.

Hail only gave him an extra 60 AD, and thanks to his passive and her armor, he only got off a single auto attack with only an extra 62 damage from it.

JJI7441 votes

Unrelated to current topic. If you right-click the video, there is an option to copy URL at current time. Should get you a link that sends the person to the time you want immediately.

OatheSworn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-02T01:45:44.017+0000)

To preface, you may have a different opinion on what constitutes an outplay. As for me, I think it doesn't just include spectacular plays, but also encompasses using the enemy's mistakes to your advantage. The latter is what happened here.

https://clips.twitch.tv/EnchantingDullYamKappaClaus

imaqtpie's mistakes, in order:

  1. Failed to notice the ignite on the ground.

You putting this as a reason clearly shows you are biased towards Zoe. She missed all her skillshots, but you think a single summoner spell automatically wins her the fight? So you do realize how broken that W is... also, would you run for the hills because of someone who just used and missed their only 2 skillshots picked up a single summoner spell, with you being at full health with all of your abilities up?

  1. Didn't use his E at all during the fight.

Using E would have been a stupid mistake that only inexperienced players would make, stopping to place a trap that has a delayed damage trigger would disrupt his auto attacks and it would have likely fallen useless. People don't just stand in the same spot and they tend to avoid places where traps have been set.

  1. Opted to stay and fight with the minions already cleared, despite both of them having only one full item (which with the ADC item changes puts him at a distinct disadvantage) and her being a level up. He not only had time to just walk away, but also had his flash and another charge of his E even if he had used it before.

He had a minion wave and Zoe didn't, that's a basic and obvious advantage standpoint that you clearly ignored/did not see. He may have been an ADC and that would have been a disadvantage in this insane one-shot meta but Zoe missed her skillshots. He had flash, but Zoe's autos and W stars follow the target. It was too late for him to flash and he knew it. Again, E is useless unless it's been set prior to the fight--out of vision. People don't just 'walk into' it in that level of play, especially if he just placed it in front of her face. The only time they would is when they intentionally trigger the trap to get rid of it.

  1. At 6 seconds he misclicks, throwing his bouncing grenade at a minion. And since Zoe was mid-cast of her R, she was actually not in range for the grenade to bounce to her.

You clearly have not played Jhin then because if you had, you would have known that the Q deals increasing damage if it kills a unit. He tossed the grenade and at the same time, Zoe cast her R. There was no way for him to have predicted that.

  1. 8 seconds in he misses his W, losing both the damage and his chance to escape.

It was an attempt to stop her in place because missed or not, he was dead, but his chances were higher if she was rooted.

  1. Held his fourth auto and issued non-attack movement commands instead of attempting to fire the fourth shot which might have killed her. Though granted Redemption may have saved her anyway.

He did not 'hold' his auto, he knew how long it took for the auto-timer to reset and it was not up yet.

At the time of his death, Zoe had 254 HP.

Same as the above point.

With Zoe's 44.4 armor, Jhin's Q if he hadn't misclicked would have dealt 175 damage. If he had clicked it half a second later, so as to get the bounce damage, it would have dealt 236 damage instead.

Oh, so you DO know Jhin's Q. So you chose to ignore this in order to add another useless point. Great job, all you did was promote a discussion.

254 - 175 = 79, or 254 - 236 = 18

If he had landed his W, it would have dealt 132 damage. More than enough to win him the fight before the Redemption finished casting, without even needing that last auto attack.

I'd like to see you accurately hit an extremely thin skillshot with a slight delay on top of an already small hitbox champion.

But he missed both.

Again, I'd like to see you hit Zoe with Jhin's W while she is in your face throwing stars, lighting you on fire, and chunking your health INCLUDING her extra movespeed from W.

This was an actual outplay. Popular streamers whining about actually getting outplayed as if the champion is to blame when they make boneheaded mistakes like this shouldn't be taken at face value without scrutinizing.


Edit: It's important to keep in mind he is a level 8, one-item Jhin and had Hail of Blades. Any other ADC would have won that fight, as they'd have gotten three attacks off with Hail and wouldn't have their free Stormrazor crits reduced further than Stormrazor's already reduces them. And even Jhin would have won the fight if it occured when both had more items, because she'd take a much harsher penalty for missing her abilities than him. But the matchup and point of the game in which it happened put it in Zoe's favor. A Brand or Lux with only their passives, electrocute, and two abilities landed would have won this too. It's not about Zoe.

It's actually more ridiculous that the fight was so close, because Jhin dealt damage from ZERO out of his four abilities, and only got one auto with his AD increased by Hail of Blades. It's crazy he was able to nearly match her for damage without doing anything right at all.

Honestly, the only 'outplay' I see here is her dodging his Q, but even then, that was can be contributed to luck. She had, most likely, R'd in his face in order to auto him with her passive.

Shakyasu1 votes

[deleted]

The Ecdysiast1 votes
  1. You're ignoring the fact Electrocute and Luden's were a big chunk of her damage, and that that ignite was not from a minion, it was from a prior fight. Conversely, Jhin's Hail of Blades only gave him a grand total of only around 62 extra damage on a single attack, leaving him essentially without a keystone for the rest of the prolonged fight.

  2. Her E and Q are not her only damage, and since they were lowered quite a bit so as not to allow her to one-shot you early on with a single item, she has to rely on her passive and conditional W in a pinch, which this Zoe did.

  3. The comparison you're making simply doesn't fit. Xerath's passive does not deal extra damage, Jhin actually missed all 4 abilities if we count the fact he didn't even cast two of them, and he only got one auto off of an auto-based Keystone. It would have been far more ridiculous for Jhin to win this fight.

If you really want to compare other Mages, Lux or Brand could have won the fight with just their passives, ignite, electrocute, and just their E's and ults, as well.

chipndip11 votes

I'm on your side, but Lux and Brand probably wouldn't have won this. Assuming this person missed skill shot moves specifically...they wouldn't have enough damage to win here. Maybe Syndra could just miss her shit, have a bunch of orbs, smack R, Ignite, and voila...but not Lux or Brand.

Pika Fox1 votes

Finally, someone who actually gets it!

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Yep. But people who are somehow losing to a champion with a sub-par winrate even with 200+ games are complaining just because she _has abilities. _

Lyee420Watson 1 votes

[deleted]

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lyee420Watson ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uNdE3pLP,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-08-18T17:46:06.433+0000)

I would say you are right if I would have some kind of mind disability like you have.

No, you'd say I'm right if you could read.

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