Whenever I play Pantheon, I just feel like I soak up all the kills then do absolutely nothing.

Sorgklaan·Oct 18, 2015·22 votes·2,669 views

After 20 minutes in, I always feel as if I just become absolutely useless. Renekton has a ton of early power to help get early objectives, but even his lategame is better that pantheon's. Most other lane bullies have things they can fall back on, and some champions are lane bullies AND late game monsters. Gnar, Rumble, and Darius can all be very powerful lane bullies while being very strong lategame as well, Urgot has a ton of utility, teemo gives great map control, even shaco can split push and backdoor.

But pantheon just falls off a cliff and does absolutely nothing. Can we rework him yet? Because it makes him feel horrible and unsatisfying to play.

33 Comments

LaySFOct 18, 20153 votes

I find his ult is simply too easy to avoid with all this mobility in this game...

JimnorRainOct 18, 20153 votes

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SorgklaanOct 18, 20155 votes

{quoted}

once you get a lead with pantheon in lane you need to roam and start snowballing other lanes on the map

I don't play him in lane, I play him in the jungle.

And my arguments are still valid, other lane bullies have their roles lategame, pantheon does fuckall.

EedatOct 18, 20152 votes

Well it doesn't help when you use Renek as an example because his mid/late game is absolutely terrible

SorgklaanOct 18, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Well it doesn't help when you use Renek as an example because his mid/late game is absolutely terrible

Renekton can still build very beefy while still being a threat to squishy targets in the lategame, especially with his ult. Pantheon can't really get beefy enough to be a threat in the lategame while still doing damage. Plus renekton has the mobility and stickiness to avoid being kited, and it's extremely easy for him to apply black cleaver stacks to a lot of people.

EedatOct 18, 20153 votes

Renekton can still build very beefy while still being a threat to squishy targets in the lategame

No not really. Renek only offers one short single target CC before he gets CCed himself and is more or less ineffective at team fighting

TyaldanOct 20, 20151 votes

If you feel that way you should probably try ravenous hydra + bork, and 2 defensive items + boots, with last item being situational how the game feels. When i played a ton of renekton thats how i did it, and even late game i could e e through their team q w bork proc to kill their adc, then ult and run or fight to help in team fights. His late game damage isnt great, his tank isnt amazing like other tanks who have tank passives, but ive always seen him as a bruiser anyways. Get in, fuck someone up, then run or help your team fight. If they burn their cc on you then your adc can clean up.

Rinky DinkyOct 19, 20151 votes

Not at all after the new hydra item 3748

JimnorRainOct 19, 20152 votes

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Auz the RipperOct 19, 20151 votes

Titanic is 103% gold efficient by itself and gets .6% more efficient per 100 bonus health. It's efficient no matter what.

Though, you're right that pantheon can't use it effectively.

Rinky DinkyOct 19, 20151 votes

That is # 1 incorrect and #2 how do you confuse Renekton and Pantheon

Sire HippingtonOct 19, 20151 votes

hm, as jungler i nerver really feel like falling of that hard, your ult+some tankiness+randuin slow is a great tool to force fights, and your damage with jungleitem+bc+lw/hextrinker is enough to be threatening fir enemie squishys or help your carrys to deal with the frontline.

As sololaner however, he falls a bit short later on, if he goes tanky he doesn't provid enough damage or utillity for a sololane, and if built glasscannon, it's far to easy to focus him down in fights.

The Yetii RiderOct 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't play him in lane, I play him in the jungle.

And my arguments are still valid, other lane bullies have their roles lategame, pantheon does fuckall.

Pantheon has a 100% AP ratio on a point and click stun and a 100% AP ratio (plus 1000 base magic damage) on his ultimate. There's your late game power.

Don't knock it until you've tried it. If you really are seeking help with Pantheon and aren't just here to complain, go play 5 normals as AP Panth and then come back if you're not satisfied.

I suggest Runeglaive Rod of Ages Void Staff Sorc Shoes Luden's Echo Zhonya's Hourglass and then sell Runeglaive for Lich Bane.

460 AP without runes, masteries or dragon, plus 15 base and 35% MR Pen, Luden's and Lich Bane for extra damage and Zhonya's for golden ultimates.

RalanrOct 19, 20151 votes

I've tried crystal scepter on him in a late game ARAM. It's beautiful on him but it doesn't feel like something he'd try and build unless he had a free slot and was fed. Which I was.

Edit: better hybrid items would work well with him I imagine.

WestonbirtOct 19, 20153 votes

Urgot : Welcome to my club.

Although the main reason Urgot can't carry is because his arms are too small.

Remlap1223Oct 19, 20153 votes

As a jungle Pantheon main, yes, Panth does fall off a cliff late game. There are ways you can make yourself useful late game though, such as focusing your attention solely on the carries, and ulting to cut off the escape routes of your enemies.

The issue here is that guys like Renekton, Volibear, and Xin Zhao can splitpush late game, and Pantheon is only slightly better at taking towers than Mages are (hell, Ziggs does a better job at it).

Pantheon is far more team reliant on his successes late game than those three. If your team derps, those three can just split push. If your team derps when you're playing Pantheon, you're SOL.

Pantheon got indirectly screwed preseason with the lazer towers, but everyone was paying too much attention to his ability to block dragon shots to care, and after the dust cleared he was unplayable until Warrior got buffed and Black Cleaver got reworked.

Right now, some good ideas would be to normalize his ultimate's mana cost to 100 mana, and give him some more late game utility, like a slightly longer stun on his W from 1 sec at all ranks to 1.1-1.5. I don't know any other ideas right now that wouldn't push his early game over the edge.

Edit: Pantheon doesn't need a rework. He's an extremely well made champion that has a low skill floor but a high skill ceiling. He just needs some balance tweaks and some fresh ideas to reinvigorate him, and he'll be back to his good ol ass kicking top lane self.

Edit 2: Did I mention he counters Fiora? Because he counters Fiora.

RalanrOct 19, 20153 votes

Personally I'd love for his passive to block special empowered AA. I hate blocking Garen's Q and being silenced still. Or blocking Mordekaiser's third Q and taking all the magic damage.

Remlap1223Oct 20, 20151 votes

That's the issue with the Mantheon. He actually blocks Fiora's vital strikes, but Garen's silence squeaks through, and I'm pretty sure Doge's bonus damage goes through as well.

It needs consistency, same goes for Jax's dodge.

RalanrOct 20, 20151 votes

I believe Meddler said they'll be looking at it in preseason 6. Or rather that it was a rough estimate for preseason 6.

RalanrOct 18, 20152 votes

Pantheon is an extreme textbook example of a lane bully with his power curve. I main him top and use him as my go to jungler.

In lane I roam after I take down the tower, acting as a secondary ganker. In jungle I do my basic jungle thing until teamfights start.

Teamfights: Pantheon should never go in head on. He's the most useful from behind, especially when using your ult in their escape route.

I also end up buying items to help take down threats. When I see armor on the enemy, I start building last whisper.

Early game I play Pantheon like a bruiser who transitions into an assassin mid to late. Find a target, lock them down and focus them. Sadly due to his lack of escape he makes a poor assassin half the time. Played well and you won't care because you'll hopefully be playing smart enough to notice which situations are good and which aren't.

Personally I think his kit could use a little rework. Even if they made his E active like Darius's Q in that it's not a channel.

SaiannaOct 19, 20152 votes

Imo cause of this issue is curve of his ability power damage. Early-mid Panth can really hurt, but in late-game his damage from abilities falls off hard and he has to use basic attacks just to be noticeable.

Tbh this is getting slightly out of hand with that "rework X/Y/X". Listen guys, don't change stuff that shouldn't be changed. Panth just needs buffs that aim at his mid-lategame power and he'll be fine.

MatezoideOct 19, 20152 votes

Pantheon is an example of a champion that legitimately falls off late game.

GhiOct 19, 20152 votes

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terkmcOct 19, 20151 votes

Pantheon E ratio against champion now from 360% Bonus AD to 720% Bonus AD

Only Play DariusOct 19, 20152 votes

"Soak up all the kills and do nothing"

Just like old Darius lol.

In all seriousness Pantheon needs a rework and a VU

FalconPawwwwnchOct 20, 20152 votes

Yea, that's how it should be

Someone with an early game that absurd should fall off hard

Not everyone deserves an end game fantasy, sorry

SeenanOct 19, 20151 votes

Tbh, no, it's not just you. I see Pantheons go tank and that's kind of..annoying to deal with, but nothing too strong...One of the reasons I don't play Ren/Panth is simply cause they fall off, actually.

IpolsOct 19, 20151 votes

Since it's a champ that, IF you learn how to play, wins automatically every lane, I guess his power budget is already gone. I don't like Panth for the same reason. Try letting the laners take the kills

SookoOct 19, 20151 votes

I don't think he is that bad... I honestly think that he is the truest meaning of a bully. I wish all champions' weak states were as clear as Pantheon's instead of "this champion is slightly less good during the early/late game"

zouzou123Oct 19, 20151 votes

i like the fact that you said teem gives great map control, its funny for a troll to do so. You forgot that yorick is bully, Yorick early game is good but his late game isn't.

AuroramancerOct 19, 20151 votes

Hey man, Pantheon main here, got to Diamond with him.

I feel he's a lot better in the top lane than the jungle. You get a better power curve in lane and can exert dominance from top.

Typical builds I do are Ravenous Hydra, Black Cleaver, Ghostblade (situational), Randuins, Banshees/Spirit Visage/Guardian Angel

When it comes to the late game with Pantheon, your main goal is to zone backline carries and panicking the enemy team with your ult indicator. Sometimes you want to engage with your ult, pinching the enemy team with the indicator and your team's engage tools, or you'll want the fight to start and ult in about 2 seconds into the fight to disrupt the flow of things. Hydra and Black Cleaver are enough to pressure mages and marksmen, given that you actually land your Heartseeker on them and use Randuin's active to keep them in range. You probably won't get kills but you create a shitton of pressure.

Apart from fights, split pushing is your main thing, which is why you build Ravenous Hydra. The ideal situation is that you force 1 or 2 enemies to come and stop you, and you ult to where the rest of the enemy team and your team are at and win the fight based on number advantage. Teleport helps you keep all 3 lanes in control throughout the game.

Killer of PorosOct 19, 20151 votes

I don't think he needs a rework but a small buff to somewhere. I would personally prefer it if his mama regen or his maximum mana pool was raised a bit.