Something that baffles me @Cassiopeia changes

Kowe The Ewok·Dec 10, 2014·13 votes·4,602 views

Note: I think the latest patch put her in a much beter spot (balance wise), not talking about gameplay.

On topic: Cassiopeia's initial nerfs were justified with the statement "her DoTs lack clarity for the opponent". With the amplification changes however we now have a case where the very same DoT, at the same skill level, can damage his opponent for 3 different amounts (no amplification, 1 amplification stack, 2 amplification stacks)

Doesn't this completely contradict the original intention? Cassiopeia might have had a stronger scaling on Q pre-rework, but after getting hit once you know what you were up against.

EDIT: Just noticed I was wrong. it's not 3 different amounts. It is even more! Since the time when the amplification is applied also creates different cases. (E.g. it does matter wether you hit E before the first damage tick, or between the first and the 2nd damage tick.)

30 Comments

RiotRiot StashuDec 10, 201416 votes

To clarify, the readability problem with AoE damage over time is that in complicated team fights, it becomes especially difficult to track/appreciate the source of the damage, but more importantly it's nearly impossible to understand how much damage you are going to take or how to play around it. When you get edge'd by the hitbox of one of Cassiopeia's poisons, you tend not to notice, and then suddenly end up with a third of your HP gone without even knowing what happened or how to do better next time. This is the nature of these longer lasting abilities. At the same time, making these abilities as loud/readable as other, non-lingering spells would incur huge visual clutter costs because of their sheer volume and uptime (imagine if Singed's poison trail was opaque).

W ends up being a bigger culprit than Q here, because it is effectively undodgeable, covers a large area, and lasts an exceptionally long time. Basically, with the spell's readability, dodgeability, and duration profiles, it occupied a much lower portion of the opponents mind-space than it should have, given how threatening it actually was. This is less a point of mastery ("opponents should just learn that Misama is threatening") than it was the spell dealing inappropriate damage given how it was applied. Q doesn't suffer as much from these problems, as it has a delay/telegraph and doesn't persist forever, but still exhibits them more than many spells other.

The Twin Fang poison amp does add some under-the-hood stuff, which is a clarity cost, but ultimately it's a net gain. When you get hit by the tip of one of Cassiopeia's more difficult to track abilities, you won't be as punished unless she very clearly declared that you are going to take a lot of damage (by hitting you with Twin Fangs). This way, when you're about to take a ton of poison damage, you understand why and where it's coming from.

That's the theory anyway, and it seems to be working out. The Twin Fang amp does some other stuff as well, like add optimizations to her trading patterns and emphasize the importance of using both of her combat ranges, but that's the clarity reasoning.

That all said, un-amped poisons might simply be doing too little damage as it stands, and the answer might be to add some poison power back there.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 10, 201413 votes

@everything you said about readability and especially...

it occupied a much lower portion of the opponents mind-space than it should have, given how threatening it actually was.

But isn't that very APPROPRIATE for Cassiopeia though? Or Poison as a whole.

Some of the greatest poisonous gaseous substance in the world are scentless and even invisible at times. While making her poison invisible is obviously no-go, the whole "FAR stronger than your opponent realizes" aspect fits poison like a glove if I'm using the figure of speech right. Hell look at Singed, he'll Penta your team without your team realizing it till it's too late. That's really thematically consistent AND awesome.

That and...poison amp just gives even more importance and reliance to her E.

LongFur FoxDec 10, 201411 votes

@everything you said about readability and especially...

it occupied a much lower portion of the opponents mind-space than it should have, given how threatening it actually was.

But isn't that very APPROPRIATE for Cassiopeia though? Or Poison as a whole.

Some of the greatest poisonous gaseous substance in the world are scentless and even invisible at times. While making her poison invisible is obviously no-go, the whole "FAR stronger than your opponent realizes" aspect fits poison like a glove if I'm using the figure of speech right.

While i do agree with you here i think clarity is a very important thing in games like this and even though riot might have placed to much focus on it lately i would say that sacrificing clarity for a better feel for the one playing cassi is not a good option. It will just result in her feeling toxic and get forgotten/nerfed again.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 10, 201411 votes

And now we end up with "this" Cassiopeia where it feels terrible for the one playing and the opponent is outright doesn't care if they're poisoned unless they see a stream of gigantic torso-sized fangs coming at them.

LongFur FoxDec 10, 20146 votes

Never said that this was optimal just that i dislike your suggestion of having a low readability spell is good since it fits her theme. I will even go as far as a i agree that it fits her theme but for a moba readability is pretty much one of the most important things so i dislike any suggestions of reducing that.

If you want to increase her poisons damage a better way would be to make new visuals to better indicate poisons. I think it was suggested that the health bar should indicate how much dmg you are going to take from dots which could be one way to do this.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 10, 201410 votes

Literally all they have to do is make the poison debuff be more than just a tiny purple cloud over their head. Or change the edges of the screen or make their health be purple coloured.

LongFur FoxDec 10, 20145 votes

Maybe. This would be good changes no matter what however seeing how many people are complaining about dropping e's.... In any case stashu did mention that he might buff her poison damage if she still feels underpowered.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 10, 201410 votes

The way he words it sounds like it's only a little undertuned.

However, you KNOW that her Poison will never be satisfying to land without help of 2 E's because if her Poisons were in anyway SATISFYING at all, it'd be OP when they also get subsequently amplified by her E's.

You should know by now how they dug themselves in a hole each time they increase her reliance on her E.

LongFur FoxDec 11, 20144 votes

As you might remember i have no problem with her poisons doind no damage as long as they provide me with utility and sets me up to use my e. I never really liked her as a poke mage which was the reason i never learned her thoroughly before the rework. That said i do realize why you are mad with the rework which is why i am trying to help envision a form of her poisons which riot would agree while keeping you happy.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 11, 20146 votes

You...do remember that she was fully capable of playing that way pre-rework right? Difference is HER POISON ACTUALLY DID JACK back then.

In fact, she might have done it even BETTER considering her mana problems weren't half as severe back then.

Literally all she needed was those tiny little QoL fixes she initially received. However Riot also packaged those oft-requested tiny changes...with this pos.

edit: Yeah I just played a few games with her...playing her doesn't put me in the greatest mood post-rework. But you can't give feedback and criticisms without suffering.

KingsgraveDec 10, 20142 votes

To clarify, the readability problem with AoE damage over time is that in complicated team fights, it becomes especially difficult to track/appreciate the source of the damage, but more importantly it's nearly impossible to understand how much damage you are going to take or how to play around it. When you get edge'd by the hitbox of one of Cassiopeia's poisons, you tend not to notice, and then suddenly end up with a third of your HP gone without even knowing what happened or how to do better next time. This is the nature of these longer lasting abilities. At the same time, making these abilities as loud/readable as other, non-lingering spells would incur huge visual clutter costs because of their sheer volume and uptime (imagine if Singed's poison trail was opaque).

W ends up being a bigger culprit than Q here, because it is effectively undodgeable, covers a large area, and lasts an exceptionally long time. Basically, with the spell's readability, dodgeability, and duration profiles, it occupied a much lower portion of the opponents mind-space than it should have, given how threatening it actually was. This is less a point of mastery ("opponents should just learn that Misama is threatening") than it was the spell dealing inappropriate damage given how it was applied. Q doesn't suffer as much from these problems, as it has a delay/telegraph and doesn't persist forever, but still exhibits them more than many spells other.

The Twin Fang poison amp does add some under-the-hood stuff, which is a clarity cost, but ultimately it's a net gain. When you get hit by the tip of one of Cassiopeia's more difficult to track abilities, you won't be as punished unless she very clearly declared that you are going to take a lot of damage (by hitting you with Twin Fangs). This way, when you're about to take a ton of poison damage, you understand why and where it's coming from.

That's the theory anyway, and it seems to be working out. The Twin Fang amp does some other stuff as well, like add optimizations to her trading patterns and emphasize the importance of using both of her combat ranges, but that's the clarity reasoning.

That all said, un-amped poisons might simply be doing too little damage as it stands, and the answer might be to add some poison power back there.

Have you thought about just raising her AP ratios significantly but in turn reducing her base damages?

LongFur FoxDec 10, 20147 votes

I like how you make very large posts to concerns which are not in the focus by a large amount of players. Thank you very much for that. That said however:

That all said, un-amped poisons might simply be doing too little damage as it stands, and the answer might be to add some poison power back there.

This is a dangerous suggestion to make if something like this does not at least make it to pbe. Can't wait for chauster and ginga to see this though.

UnedibleDec 10, 20148 votes

To clarify, the readability problem with AoE damage over time is that in complicated team fights, it becomes especially difficult to track/appreciate the source of the damage, but more importantly it's nearly impossible to understand how much damage you are going to take or how to play around it. When you get edge'd by the hitbox of one of Cassiopeia's poisons, you tend not to notice, and then suddenly end up with a third of your HP gone without even knowing what happened or how to do better next time. This is the nature of these longer lasting abilities. At the same time, making these abilities as loud/readable as other, non-lingering spells would incur huge visual clutter costs because of their sheer volume and uptime (imagine if Singed's poison trail was opaque).

W ends up being a bigger culprit than Q here, because it is effectively undodgeable, covers a large area, and lasts an exceptionally long time. Basically, with the spell's readability, dodgeability, and duration profiles, it occupied a much lower portion of the opponents mind-space than it should have, given how threatening it actually was. This is less a point of mastery ("opponents should just learn that Misama is threatening") than it was the spell dealing inappropriate damage given how it was applied. Q doesn't suffer as much from these problems, as it has a delay/telegraph and doesn't persist forever, but still exhibits them more than many spells other.

The Twin Fang poison amp does add some under-the-hood stuff, which is a clarity cost, but ultimately it's a net gain. When you get hit by the tip of one of Cassiopeia's more difficult to track abilities, you won't be as punished unless she very clearly declared that you are going to take a lot of damage (by hitting you with Twin Fangs). This way, when you're about to take a ton of poison damage, you understand why and where it's coming from.

That's the theory anyway, and it seems to be working out. The Twin Fang amp does some other stuff as well, like add optimizations to her trading patterns and emphasize the importance of using both of her combat ranges, but that's the clarity reasoning.

That all said, un-amped poisons might simply be doing too little damage as it stands, and the answer might be to add some poison power back there.

Isn't there a bunch a clarity when the opponent notices there's a huge purple thing about their head telling them that they're poisoned? I mean, Teemo opponents damn well know when they're poisoned.

And Cassio's still a bit too squishy to be trading in lane, Stashu

StarlighteDec 10, 201410 votes

To clarify, the readability problem with AoE damage over time is that in complicated team fights, it becomes especially difficult to track/appreciate the source of the damage, but more importantly it's nearly impossible to understand how much damage you are going to take or how to play around it. When you get edge'd by the hitbox of one of Cassiopeia's poisons, you tend not to notice, and then suddenly end up with a third of your HP gone without even knowing what happened or how to do better next time. This is the nature of these longer lasting abilities. At the same time, making these abilities as loud/readable as other, non-lingering spells would incur huge visual clutter costs because of their sheer volume and uptime (imagine if Singed's poison trail was opaque).

I fail to see this point arguable when Teemo's ult is allowed to exist in it's current state. 8 Minute landmines that are invisible... no offense but this argument is kinda bull when you let champions such as that exist in the game.

So why does Teemo get away with it but Cass can't?

W ends up being a bigger culprit than Q here, because it is effectively undodgeable, covers a large area, and lasts an exceptionally long time. Basically, with the spell's readability, dodgeability, and duration profiles, it occupied a much lower portion of the opponents mind-space than it should have, given how threatening it actually was. This is less a point of mastery ("opponents should just learn that Misama is threatening") than it was the spell dealing inappropriate damage given how it was applied. Q doesn't suffer as much from these problems, as it has a delay/telegraph and doesn't persist forever, but still exhibits them more than many spells other.

The Twin Fang poison amp does add some under-the-hood stuff, which is a clarity cost, but ultimately it's a net gain. When you get hit by the tip of one of Cassiopeia's more difficult to track abilities, you won't be as punished unless she very clearly declared that you are going to take a lot of damage (by hitting you with Twin Fangs). This way, when you're about to take a ton of poison damage, you understand why and where it's coming from.

Again, as I've tried to point out to you in several threads, the amount of hidden information in Cass's kit requires a wiki page everytime you go against her in lane to understand what/when/how her abilities/damage change. This is a terrible design choice that goes against every design value Riot has held these past few years.

That's the theory anyway, and it seems to be working out. The Twin Fang amp does some other stuff as well, like add optimizations to her trading patterns and emphasize the importance of using both of her combat ranges, but that's the clarity reasoning.

**That all said, un-amped poisons might simply be doing too little damage as it stands, and the answer might be to add some poison power back there. ** Until the passive in its current state is removed, power is given back to her poison, and this machine-gun style hypercarry mage is torn down as the end-goal for Cass, you can buff her numbers until she has a 90% win/ban rate like WW and the community still won't like the rework. The issue is the direction and the way its being done, not her power that people care about.

When Cass doesn't feel like Cass, you have done something wrong.

HellioningDec 10, 20148 votes

Yeah, sorry, I'm not too sympathetic to people who don't understand that getting hit by my abilities is bad. Like, I get the basic point, that I am probably vastly overestimating the intelligence and competence of the average player to think 'PURPLE THING IS DAMAGING ME I SHOULD MOVE' but there comes a time where you have to stop catering to them and tell them 'stop sucking and start thinking if you wonder why DoTs are killing you.'

I'm also not particularly happy that you decided 'W was doing too much damage for how dodgable/long lasting it is, and people were getting confused as to why they were dying when they were standing in the big purple poison field. Ergo, let's make it do absolutely no damage!'

TendrianDec 10, 20146 votes

Words can not describe how much I hate your design philosophy.

Sorry, but that's all I have to say. Noting constructive to add here anymore.

ElphrihaimDec 10, 20145 votes

To clarify, the readability problem with AoE damage over time is that in complicated team fights, it becomes especially difficult to track/appreciate the source of the damage, but more importantly it's nearly impossible to understand how much damage you are going to take or how to play around it.

In team fights, the burst is also approximately untrackable. I... I don't think that that's a problem, since as you say, they're usually very strong visually and thus easy to see "this shiny/big explosion did lots of damage", which I agree is something that Cassiopeia... doesn't have, her visuals are somewhat piddly comparatively.

When you get edge'd by the hitbox of one of Cassiopeia's poisons, you tend not to notice, and then suddenly end up with a third of your HP gone without even knowing what happened or how to do better next time. This is the nature of these longer lasting abilities. At the same time, making these abilities as loud/readable as other, non-lingering spells would incur huge visual clutter costs because of their sheer volume and uptime (imagine if Singed's poison trail was opaque).

Maybe prepatch, but now many people ignore it because it's ignorable. Should some sort of balance not be struck? I get that that's a gameplay thing, but with Cassiopeia her thematic and gameplay are intertwined. Her old self with high poison damage was really good because it felt like an underhanded diplomat of sorts, somebody waiting for the right time to pounce. But Cassiopeia makes that weakness herself, and it felt really nice and offered some fulfillment there.

W ends up being a bigger culprit than Q here, because it is effectively undodgeable, covers a large area, and lasts an exceptionally long time.

... What? Miasma occupies a large area when you throw it out? I think that the fact that it slowly expands makes it not cover as large an area as it first seems (just looking at the min/max size numbers that is).

Basically, with the spell's readability, dodgeability, and duration profiles, it occupied a much lower portion of the opponents mind-space than it should have, given how threatening it actually was.

This is less a point of mastery ("opponents should just learn that Misama is threatening") than it was the spell dealing inappropriate damage given how it was applied.

... What? I'm sorry, WHAT? What are you trying to say because I'm pretty sure that "the spell [was] dealing inappropriate damage given how it was applied" was not it. Do you mean that Miasma dealt too much damage for a thick cloud of purple fumes floating above the ground? Toxins tend to be small in the first place... or do you mean that Miasma, as an AoE DoT-applying field, was dealing too much damage? I really have a hard time agreeing with that seeing as it took place over 9 seconds, and it is/was very easy to just walk out of it and take much less damage from it. But now walking out of it is (mostly) pointless because in lane it barely does more damage than one's HP Regen, since Cassiopeia HAS to build mana items so she can actually last hit enemies, which means no AP for her LOW AP scaling W.

The Twin Fang poison amp does add some under-the-hood stuff, which is a clarity cost, but ultimately it's a net gain. When you get hit by the tip of one of Cassiopeia's more difficult to track abilities, you won't be as punished unless she very clearly declared that you are going to take a lot of damage (by hitting you with Twin Fangs). This way, when you're about to take a ton of poison damage, you understand why and where it's coming from.

The thing everybody has been telling you this rework needs to stop doing is good for game health. Ok, sure! It's better if enemies know where Cassiopeia's damage is coming from.

#Why can't it be "because I got hit with this explosive green thing" or "I am standing in this purple cloud" instead of "Cassiopeia is walking up to me and throwing twin blades of energy that are about as large as her torso"? It was pretty clear before that one took damage because you were hit by Cassiopeia's poisons.

That's the theory anyway, and it seems to be working out. The Twin Fang amp does some other stuff as well, like add optimizations to her trading patterns and emphasize the importance of using both of her combat ranges, but that's the clarity reasoning.

She has, effectively, one combat range, due to how weak her poisons are. It doesn't matter if she has 850 (or whatever it is) range on Noxious Blast when Noxious Blast alone does nothing. Noxious Blast followed with Twin Fangs followed with Noxious Blast does make that last Noxious Blast deal a fair amount of damage, but from the perspective of the Cassiopeia player it is still damage from Twin Fangs and not damage from Noxious Blast.

That all said, un-amped poisons might simply be doing too little damage as it stands, and the answer might be to add some poison power back there.

And everybody has been telling you that this is needed since this rework was pushed onto the PBE.

p.s. I don't play Cassiopeia, and her DoTs were definitely easy to understand because "I got hit with green thing so now I'm taking damage". They were easy to appreciate for Cassio, too, as "I hit my poison and I now see enemy health trickling away *evil cackle*". I find the reason of "Poisons are hard to appreciate" to be entirely BS because anybody that things a strong DoT is weaker/less able to be appreciated just because it's a DoT and not burst (the difference is basically 0 if you're poking enemies) is somebody that needs to learn strategy games better.

A DunsparceDec 10, 20146 votes

Thanks for replying to these different topics with how you feel. I think that as far as the opponent not noticing the poison on them, that may be their fault for not paying attention. but I would feel that a Larger indicator that you are poisoned would solve this issue, Some kind of border showing you are taking damage over time for any champion who does it, or maybe throwing a glowy venom symbol above their head.

Also not really much of a fan of using E to solve the issue. Way to much power is dedicated to it in my opinion.

AbyssphereDec 10, 20147 votes

Um :/

It's taken me a while to compose a response to this that I'm happy with but with this now the clear design principle behind destroying her poison damage, I now have a huge problem with the intent behind this rework. "Reduce lane bullying" was a fine reason, though I thought you were wrong on it given that mid lane is essentially nothing but lane bullies and assassins and Cass could easily have had her bullying reduced through something as simple as reducing her Q range to 800, but "DOTs are hard enough for the enemy to understand that they should not be viable" is a completely different thing altogether. For one, it still makes no sense for Cass to be singled out - what's wrong with Cass that isn't wrong with Ziggs's minefield, Morgana's soil or Malzahar's entire kit? For another, poison is arguably the MOST clear form of DOT there is: no other form of DOT puts a big mark above the head of the target. From experience it can be somewhat difficult to see a Ziggs minefield but Cass's poison spells both make distinctive noises, have easily recognised effects on the ground (green explosion versus constant purple cloud) and apply the poison mark. People who don't notice being hit by one of Cassiopeia's poisons do not afford to be catered too because they're the exact people who won't notice ANY DOT. If you have a problem with Cass's DOT then every other DOT spell in the game is an offender and every non-poison one is a worse offender at that.

But the most offending thing is how you've went about "fixing" what you see is wrong. You didn't try to add extra clarity to Cass's poisons, nor did you just get rid of them altogether (if you don't want DOT doing damage then there's no reason for it to exist, you should have just given her 4 burst skills rather than a kit that has 3 trash spells and 1 burst spell that does the work of the rest of the kit). Instead you kept her poison but purposefully made it worthless :/ I can't tell you how awful it feels to be told designers not only purposefully made the majority of your champion's kit weak to the point of being worthless, but lied about why they were doing it to boot.

And in the end her gameplay is a thousand times less clear than it used to be anyway. If you see Cass you now need to worry about how many stacks she might have, what thresholds she's hit and how many Twin Fang poison debuffs she's managed to tag you with. If people couldn't deal with something as easy as a Miasma cloud before, how on earth do you expect them to deal with that PLUS working out what point of her passive she's at PLUS how many poison debuffs you've been hit with? Cass is infinitely more complicated to face now.

kayakninjaDec 10, 20143 votes

On that note, is there any way of getting some sort of effect for the DoT debuff? It's a little hard to tell when it ends, since it's just a tiny box once you click on them.

SolaxoDec 11, 20144 votes

Or just revert this whole garbage and unecessary "rework"

Tapu FiniDec 10, 20146 votes

Oh I'm sorry, you wanted to know how much damage you're going to take from DoTs? Yeah good luck with that.

Kowe The EwokDec 10, 20145 votes

I would also like to know hwo much I deal :/ This is quite confusing even if I am the one on the driver seat :x

SaiannaDec 10, 20144 votes

Are you sure? her Q, Noxious Blast poison lasts for 2 seconds = 3 ticks. 1st tick triggers as soon as it hits enemy. So you cannot buff it with E. Second tick can be buffed by only 20% (E has 0,5s cd + travel time. You won't be able to hit double E before second tick), third can be buffed second time. So it's like this (x = Q base tick damage) x + 1,2x + 1,4x.

And with this perk Cass has pretty huge mana problems For simple full combo W-E-Q-E-E she needs 40+40+35x3 = 195 mana. At level 4. In just 2 combos she's dry.

Problem is both her Q and W deal only tiny portion of damage pre her reworked state. And i'm pretty sure old Q> double buffed Q damage.

ElphrihaimDec 10, 20144 votes

Are you sure? her Q, Noxious Blast poison lasts for 2 seconds = 3 ticks. 1st tick triggers as soon as it hits enemy. So you cannot buff it with E. Second tick can be buffed by only 20% (E has 0,5s cd + travel time. You won't be able to hit double E before second tick), third can be buffed second time. So it's like this (x = Q base damage) x + 1,2x + 1,4x.

You do realize that this is wrong right

It'd have to be x(1) + 1.2x(1) + 1.4x(4)

But the larger issue is that you could, for example

Q -> Q -> EEE -> Q

That first Q tells the opponent about how much damage they're going to take from your Qs.

During the E-hitting part, you can't tell that the Q damage is going up because she's clearly casting some other ability.

That final Q gets 1.4x the damage of the first Q, dealing 40% more damage than the opposing player is used to, having just been hit with all the ticks of Q they should have gotten a feel for how much damage it's going to do...

But they can't because the poison is amplified after fangs.

Which isn't a huge problem imo as the poison damage itself is so low that even after amp it's not going to be that good anyway ,_,

SaiannaDec 10, 20141 votes

I've wrote "(x = Q base damage)" and i'm sorry i meant "(x = Q tick damage)" Sorry again

It'd have to be x(1) + 1.2x(1) + 1.4x(4)

But the larger issue is that you could, for example

Q -> Q -> EEE -> Q

Uh.. i'm not sure i understand this "x(1) + 1.2x(1) + 1.4x(4)" part

Her Q has only 3 ticks. Bufs can affect only 2 ticks. And that is if you are fast enough. And cooldown is big enough to create gaps from her Q poison, so you cannot keep your target perma poisoned from Q.

I see your point with surprise damage normal Q and buffed Q, but to make such combo she'd become vulerable. And with no CC on her side she'll most likely get punished harder. And this surprise wouldn't be as big as you believe, as her Q damage is very small. Enemy would be more surprised by just her E damage

ElphrihaimDec 10, 20144 votes

Uh.. i'm not sure i understand this "x(1) + 1.2x(1) + 1.4x(4)" part

Her Q has only 3 ticks. Bufs can affect only 2 ticks. And that is if you are fast enough. And cooldown is big enough to create gaps from her Q poison, so you cannot keep your target perma poisoned from Q.

Her Q has 6 0.5s ticks. :) It's more likely that a person would get x(2) + 1.2x(2) + 1.4x(2) than anything else, though.

Also her Q is able to permanently poison people. Pre-rework it had a 3 second cooldown, post it has a 4 second (3 after passive CDR) -> 2.4 second cooldown on a 3 second poison.

I see your point with surprise damage normal Q and buffed Q, but to make such combo she'd become vulerable. And with no CC on her side she'll most likely get punished harder. And this surprise wouldn't be as big as you believe, as her Q damage is very small. Enemy would be more surprised by just her E damage

And the problem is actually that "her Q damage is very small". 40% increase of a small number is still a small number. 'tis why few like the rework thematically-- Cassiopeia was the only one that had long-range DoTs that were skillshots (in a sense), and now she's like Ryze (spam-caster).

Because her Q damage is so small she's very weak because she has to get into range of her E to have any threat (yes she can disengage very nicely with Q/W still, but they don't do any damage so thematically it doesn't feel like Cassiopeia did*).

Which basically reduces all of her ranges to that of her E, since in order for her to do damage she has to press E

*imo Cassiopeia's old gameplay thematic was to melt through enemy HP bars over time, but have difficulty finishing the foes off without getting in close range (Twin Fang), which felt really clean to me.

Sorry, realized I dragged my opinion in but I can't get rid of it.

chumblerDec 11, 20144 votes

Stashu must be trying to set a record for highest amount of foot put into own mouth, because that is the dumebst fucking post I have ever read by someone who claims to be a competent video game designer, and I've read Morello's and CertainlyT's posts.

Rework is still complete trash that should never have been implemented. Revert it now and apologize for ever forcing this shit on people.

chumblerDec 11, 20143 votes

The best part is how he completely and utterly fails to realize that his godawful rework does exactly what he claims to be fixing. This is no longer a debacle born of incompetence and ego. This is intentional trolling theater. Stashu is the Dunning-Kruger of designers. Too incompetent to realize his own incompetence, but more than mean spirited enough to keep on pushing and trolling anyway.

Also I can't edit my previous post because of this terrible board system.