Now that the ardent nerf dust has settled can we..

Apocalypsic·Oct 27, 2017·3 votes·896 views

Acknowledge that enchanters, especially the big three are currently unbalanced by design.

And no runes reforged doesn't help, now that PBE has no bans I've gotten to see they're just as boring, Antifun, and overbearing as they are on live.

Even with their "core item" nerfed they're still sitting pretty as the strongest supports in the game, especially the big three (Sona, Soraka, and Janna) up there rocking the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd highest win rates respectively.

They're too good in all situations and I think Riot needs to take a serious look at how they can properly balance healing and shielding in a pvp environment, because what we currently have to deal with is not fun or balanced.

26 Comments

Baron BarianOct 27, 20172 votes

Have you ever tried getting, you know, "good" with other supports?

Darkdemon653Oct 27, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Acknowledge that enchanters, especially the big three are currently unbalanced by design.

There's no such thing as imbalanced by design. Anything can be made weak, strong, or balaned with changes to nothing but numbers.

DurzakaOct 27, 20172 votes

Thats objectively wrong.

The design can 100% be unbalanced and the champion can still be weak.

Darkdemon653Oct 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Thats objectively wrong.

The design can 100% be unbalanced and the champion can still be weak.

Design an ability and put numbers to it. If it's OP, I will make it UP. If it's UP, I will make it OP. I will change nothing but the numbers.

EleshakaiOct 27, 20171 votes

But... both OP and UP are unbalanced. The question is whether, through numbers alone, you can make it BALANCED. And there are some abilities for which THAT is impossible.

DurzakaOct 27, 20172 votes

That doesnt mean it isnt unbalanced.

An ability can be numerically weak and still be a shit designed ability.

Darkdemon653Oct 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That doesnt mean it isnt unbalanced.

An ability can be numerically weak and still be a shit designed ability.

Imbalanced and poor design are not the same thing.

{quoted}

But... both OP and UP are unbalanced. The question is whether, through numbers alone, you can make it BALANCED. And there are some abilities for which THAT is impossible.

An ability can be made UP or OP by changing nothing but numbers. At some point, there is a set of numbers where that ability is balanced. Some abilities might be harder to balance than others, but balance is never impossible.

Variks the LoyalOct 27, 20171 votes

That's not true. Not every ability has a goldiock's zone of numbers where it's just right. That's why we get large scale reworks; because, numbers aside, an ability can have a lot of power budget, even if it dealt next to no damage.

Sejuani old ultimate is a good example. It sucked up so much of her power budget that she could not be strong without it available. She was centered almost entirely around landing a team-wide stun, that the rest of her kit had to suffer for it. Her basic abilities could not be strong because of her ultimate, and because of that, she rarely was ever considered strong in her old state.

Rengar old Q is another example. Because it was an AA trigger, he could prime it while stealthed. This is why one-shot kills in less than .75 seconds were a thing on old Rengar; his opening AA would deal so much damage, and he'd burst the victim without them having time to react. You can say, "Nerf the numbers on the Q, and that'll make that not happen." The issue there is, at the same time, that kills Rengar entirely because he has nothing anymore. If you gut that damage source, he fails to function as intended (As an Assassin). So the Q was changed to the skillshot he has now.

Numbers can fail because, the way the rest of the ability is designed, the numbers just determine whether the ability is overpowered, or worthless. Neither is balanced.

Darkdemon653Oct 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Variks the Loyal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uJ562GTB,comment-id=000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-10-27T19:28:58.648+0000)

Numbers can fail because, the way the rest of the ability is designed, the numbers just determine whether the ability is overpowered, or worthless. Neither is balanced.

An ability can't transition between underpowered and overpowered without crossing balanced. An ability that is UP when dealing 1000 base damage won't become overpowered when dealing 1001 base damage. A CC that is UP when lasting for 1 second can't become OP when lasting 1.01 seconds. And so on

Variks the LoyalOct 27, 20171 votes

One, obviously not, those are so minimal of changes that they'd never be noticable.

Also, yes they can. We saw it with Rengar. There was no middle ground for his old Q, either it did too much damage, or it did too little.

And, also, despite numbers, an ability can still be overpowered or underpowered. The numbers on an ability can be perfectly fine and the ability is still too weak or too strong. Like we saw with Sejuani.

Darkdemon653Oct 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Variks the Loyal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uJ562GTB,comment-id=00010000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-27T20:26:30.253+0000)

Also, yes they can. We saw it with Rengar. There was no middle ground for his old Q, either it did too much damage, or it did too little.

And, also, despite numbers, an ability can still be overpowered or underpowered. The numbers on an ability can be perfectly fine and the ability is still too weak or too strong. Like we saw with Sejuani.

We never saw numbers (specifically damage in this case, I assume) on Rengar's Q change by 1 at a time. There was a point where his Q would have been balanced.

I can make Sejuani's old ultimate overpowered with nothing but number changes and I can make her old ultimate underpowered with nothing but number changes. I can do it with any ability. If you would like to test that, feel free to design one and give numbers to it.

Variks the LoyalOct 27, 20171 votes

You know that imbalanced does not mean 'overpowered' or 'underpowered', right?

You also know that you can make an ability overpowered or underpowered without at all touching numbers, right?

Sejuani's old ultimate was overpowered, and it had nothing to do with numbers. It was because it had the potential to stun 5 people from long range. That's why the rest of her kit was very underpowered. And there was no point where his Q could have been balanced because of the nature of it as an AA buff; being able to stack 5 Ferocity and prime it while empowered during stealth was why it was imbalanced, not it's damage.

Darkdemon653Oct 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Variks the Loyal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uJ562GTB,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-27T20:57:05.528+0000)

You know that imbalanced does not mean 'overpowered' or 'underpowered', right?

You also know that you can make an ability overpowered or underpowered without at all touching numbers, right?

Sejuani's old ultimate was overpowered, and it had nothing to do with numbers. That's why the rest of her kit was very underpowered. And there was no point where his Q could have been balanced because of the nature of it as an AA buff; being able to stack 5 Ferocity and prime it while empowered during stealth was why it was imbalanced, not it's damage.

Imbalanced literally does mean that.

OK. You seem to like talking about Sejani's old ult and Rengar's old Q, so I will use them as examples. I will make each of them underpowered and each of them overpowered by changing nothing but numbers.

Underpowered: Sejuani throws a True Ice bola in a line, shattering upon colliding with an enemy champion or upon reaching maximum range, dealing magic damage to all enemies in the end area. Enemies in the end area are either Stun icon stunned for a short duration if the bola hits an enemy champion or Slow icon slowed by 30% for the same duration if it reaches maximum range.

Magic damage: 1/2/3 Disable duration: 0.1/0.2/0.3 seconds

Overpowered: ACTIVE: Sejuani throws a True Ice bola in a line, shattering upon colliding with an enemy champion or upon reaching maximum range, dealing magic damage to all enemies in the end area. Enemies in the end area are either Stun icon stunned for a short duration if the bola hits an enemy champion or Slow icon slowed by 30% for the same duration if it reaches maximum range.

Magic damage: 1000/2000/3000 Disable duration: 10/20/30 seconds

Underpowered: ACTIVE: Rengar's next two basic attacks gain 1% bonus attack speed, with the first within 3 seconds also dealing bonus physical damage. EMPOWERED ACTIVE: Savagery's bonus physical damage is increased to 1-18 (based on level) (+ 1% AD) and applying it grants Rengar 1-18 (based on level)% bonus attack speed as well as 1% AD bonus physical damage for 5 seconds.

Overpowered: ACTIVE: Rengar's next two basic attacks gain 100% bonus attack speed, with the first within 3 seconds also dealing bonus physical damage. EMPOWERED ACTIVE: Savagery's bonus physical damage is increased to 1000-18000 (based on level) (+ 1000% AD) and applying it grants Rengar 100-1800 (based on level)% bonus attack speed as well as 1000% AD bonus physical damage for 5 seconds.

For both of those abilities, I did nothing but change numbers. Each one has one version that is underpowered and one version that is overpowered.

Variks the LoyalOct 27, 20171 votes

Hey, look, you're still missing the point. I'll give you the same thing for Sejuani without touching damage or disable duration numbers at all. In fact, I won't even put any numbers.

Underpowered: Sejuani throws a True Ice bola in a line, shattering upon colliding with an enemy caster minion or upon reaching maximum range, dealing magic damage to all caster minions in the end area.

Caster minions in the end area are either stunned for a short duration if the bola hits an enemy caster minion or slowed by 30% for the same duration if it reaches maximum range.

Overpowered: Sejuani throws a True Ice bola in a line, shattering upon colliding with an enemy champion or upon reaching maximum range, dealing magic damage to and stunning all enemy champions on the map.

Darkdemon653Oct 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Variks the Loyal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uJ562GTB,comment-id=000100000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-27T21:11:18.771+0000)

Hey, look, you're still missing the point. I'll give you the same thing for Sejuani without touching damage or disable duration numbers at all. In fact, I won't even put any numbers.

Underpowered: Sejuani throws a True Ice bola in a line, shattering upon colliding with an enemy caster minion or upon reaching maximum range, dealing magic damage to all caster minions in the end area.

Caster minions in the end area are either stunned for a short duration if the bola hits an enemy caster minion or slowed by 30% for the same duration if it reaches maximum range.

Overpowered: Sejuani throws a True Ice bola in a line, shattering upon colliding with an enemy champion or upon reaching maximum range, dealing magic damage to and stunning all enemy champions on the map.

I never said numbers was the only way to make something overpowered or underpowered.

Variks the LoyalOct 27, 20171 votes

There's no such thing as imbalanced by design. Anything can be made weak, strong, or balaned with changes to nothing but numbers.

Darkdemon653Oct 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Variks the Loyal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uJ562GTB,comment-id=00010000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-27T21:16:54.075+0000)

I can change the example of your ability to be OP by changing nothing but numbers. Instead of enemy champions nearby that caster minion taking 0 damage, enemy champions take 100000 damage. And just for fun, let's change the range to be global, the cooldown to be 1 second, and the cost to be 1 mana.

Variks the LoyalOct 27, 20171 votes

You don't seem to understand. That UP example doesn't effect champions at all. It only effects caster minions. It only damages, stuns, or slows, only caster minions.

Making it do anything at all to champions is an inherent change to it's design, and thus, a method of balancing without shifting numbers around.

Darkdemon653Oct 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Variks the Loyal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uJ562GTB,comment-id=00010000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2017-10-27T21:26:27.593+0000)

You don't seem to understand. That UP example doesn't effect champions at all. It only effects caster minions. It only damages, stuns, or slows, only caster minions.

Making it do anything at all to champions is an inherent change to it's design, and thus, a method of balancing without shifting numbers around.

Changing from 0 damage dealt to 10000 damage dealt is a number change.

EleshakaiOct 27, 20172 votes

I'm sorry, but after Janna's changes, Lulu is way more problematic than any of the three up there, win rate or not.

ApocalypsicOct 27, 20171 votes

Lulu is a problem too, I agree.

PhearBunnyOct 27, 20171 votes

idk. Since the Ardent nerf I feel like the meta has shifted into....

Play a Mage support, or you lack damage to actually get through proper tank picks. Brand and Taliya mostly.

iLBGAMingOct 27, 20171 votes

I don't care what you say about any of them but don't change my baby Soraka item 3070 , you can change the W but leave the rest of her as she is lol

ApostOct 27, 20171 votes

I love those ardent changes. Finally my favorite sadist Thresh is back on the rift and looking for souls and let me tell you, those squishy Janna , Lulu and Soraka make for easy kills. Managed to get to Plat III promos without a lot of problems

RedesignatedOct 27, 20171 votes

Sona: short-range, terrible laning phase (low damage, low sustain), no stun/root outside of her ultimate, has to get into basic attack range to actually deal damage to you. If you're not punishing her for trying to do that, you're doing it severely wrong. Relies on team-fighting to be effective due to the AoE nature of her skills, so if you're actually capable of thinking out strategies beyond 5v5 run it down mid, she loses a lot of value. Soraka: item 3123 and any assassin/long-range champion that can priority-target her to make her waste Redemption/ultimate or force her out of being able to heal continuously Janna: and Silences on her ultimate

Win rates and pick rates have fallen for all three since the latest patch hit. Maybe the solution is to look at what you and your team can do better, instead of just circlejerking about how OP enchanters are? From the sounds of it, you're not respecting the fact that the game is five champions each, and instead you just want it to play like it's four, plus a living ward.

I will say, Janna does need an actual rework to remove some of her unnecessary added power (e.g. passive movement speed to allies moving toward her, AD on shield should be replaced with something more thematically-appropriate like Slow Resistance) and give her a better playstyle, but she's been nerfed multiple times. She doesn't need more half-assed "well maybe if we do this" like they've been giving her, she needs a focused, long-term update.

ApocalypsicOct 27, 20171 votes

Soraka being meaningfully affected by grievous wounds is a meme.

That champion can instaheal someone through GW, and an assassin jump her? Yeah getting silenced instantaneously in the middle of a team for trying to stop her non interactive gameplay and then snared after is really engaging...

Edit: Ah, you're just trying to justify the overbearing nature of your mains.

Enchanters are too strong as generalists and stifle support diversity, why everyone wants to continue allowing them to do so is beyond me.

I can't even enjoy pbe right now because it's literally Janna/lulu/raka every game there because there are no bans (unlike on live, in which usually 2-4 enchanters are banned per game.) If almost an entire class of champions remains pick ban after their "core item" was nerfed then I think that signifies a rather large problem.